My thoughts of Leo and actualize.org. What do you think?

[Aware Wolf]

Alright, let's talk about Leo. 

 

I think our new Adeptus Psychonautica does a good job of taking down Leo's DMT claims of being God, omniscient, and able to cure diseases.

 

There's a funny Leo video on Youtube (Awakening in Real Time, I think it is) where Leo is tripping. He's God. He's omniscient. But there's also when a knock on the door, "Who is that?" and he wonders if his camera is recording. As Adeptus says, "Okayyyy"  (so much for omniscience). 

 

I have a lot of experience in the spiritual world, I've been a Dharma Bum for years. I think the other side of Leo, the spiritual side, is lacking. He's not all that. I understand the thread here because it's formed by former survivors of Actualized.Org. So Leo is worth talking about for closure. Why should we listen to Leo at all? 

Who was Leo's teacher? Leo had no teacher. How many years did Leo spend in retreat? Did he study under anyone? 

There's only silence. 

 

Leo's read a lot of books, I give him that. He studied philosophy. Did he graduate? 

 

Has Leo written any books that show his high insights and his God Level omniscience? No ? I wonder why not. 

I think it's because Leo, like several other gurus, for example Bentinho Massaro and Sadhguru talk in a stream of consciousness style. It's word salad. It can seem profound if you're listening to it. I think perhaps the reason Leo hasn't written any books is that simply his schtick doesn't translate well into print. A Tibetan guru, Sogyal Rinpoche, author of the bestselling "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" was a bad guru, guilty of physical, sexual, and financial abuse. Sogyal had a ton of western disciples, not so many Tibetan. The thing is, Sogyal when he went to the West, didn't have much Buddhist training at all. He was able to fool Westerners however because they knew less than he did. I love the story of T. Lobsang Rampa, a supposed Tibetan Lama and author of best selling books in the 60s. Then he was found out to be an English plumber living in Devon. There's some funny Youtube stories about Lobsang. People loved his books. He introduced a generation into Tibet and Buddhism. However, real Tibetan scholars were like, wtf, who IS this guy, because he made a lot up. One of his stories concerned the opening up of his third eye, which required surgery. This is ridiculous, the opening of the third eye -- nobody does surgery to open the third eye, in Tibet or elsewhere. My favorite is T. Lobsang wrote a book on his trip to Venus from a flying saucer he found on the Tibetan plateau. My second favorite is the book that was written by his siamese cat and dictated to Lobsang. 

 

My point here is that these fake gurus will fool many. Not only the uneducated or ignorant. I don't want to sound mean here. We go to teachers because we reckon they know more than we do. To sound like Yogi Berra, we're all ignorant of stuff we don't know much about...

What we have to do is look out for red flags. warning signs, that the guru or teacher is not all they say they are.  One red flag is authoritative talks that are outside of their wheelhouse. Another red flag is grandiose claims. Another is a claim that their teachings are superior or are the only truth. I could go on here. 

It's not particularly difficult to sound profound. There's a funny website that puts random words together to sound like Deepak Chopra tweets. Leo is a great communicator. He's absorbing. I liked, at first, his video on the zen ox herding pictures. But when I listened to it again, without multitasking, and with a lot of zen experience -- when Leo's talking about the Yamada Mumon book, it's good. The book is quite excellent. But when Leo discourses on his own -- he gets a lot of stuff wrong. For example, he explains zen non-thinking as a blank trance like state. It's not that at all. Zen doesn't emphasize trance like states. Non thinking is cutting away the discursive mind, but still being aware.

 

Leo's non thinking is a zombie-like state and Leo advocates here being in a happy state no matter what. If your dog dies, Leo says, you’re okay with that. Nah Leo, that’s not it at all. We can look at this zombie-like state of no-thinking and no feelings, no emotions. It seems less an attainment than a disassociation. It’s more akin to a serial killer affect than a true zen master’s one. Leo’s no-thinking, no feeling state is achievable too with an isolated cell-like no-attachment existence. But is a solitary jail-like escape the same freedom of a zen master? I think not. It’s textbook spiritual bypassing. 
 

Leo is in error. This isn't a surprise because where in the world with all the varied videos Leo has YouTube videos titled: Using Psychedelics; All of Religion Explained in One Video; How To Manage Your Money; How to Get a Girlfriend; Meditation on Steroids; Becoming God; as well as Leo's recipe for vegetable soup! Where did he get his zen experience he can competently talk about it? Yet he claims he has a better understanding than zen masters with decades of experience!

One of the big insights in nondualism is cutting through the self. It's a nondual cliche that "There is no self". Yet look at Leo's ego! How could someone on the nondual spiritual trip fail to see their ego is out of control here. 

I like this from Ram Dass's Be Here Now:

That Psychosis business 

is an interesting business. 

If you go through the doorway too fast and you're not ready for it, 

you're bound hand and foot and 

thrown into outer darkness. 

 

You may land anywhere and 

lots of people end up in mental hospitals. The reason they do is 

they went through the door 

with their ego on. 

-- Ram Das. Be Here Now. 

 

 

 

[Aware Wolf]

2 minutes ago, Cupcake said:

@Aware Wolf I'm laughing so hard right now after reading "survivors."😁

 

Actualized wasn't as bad as Heaven's Gate, Manson, or Jones. But people who've left Actualized share some of the same characteristics as people who've left an abusive cult. 

On a lighter note, here's the Great Leo in Action:

 

Checkout video on Leo’s Blog, Adventures in Vegas 4, where he walks around a loud dance club, filming himself. He is smiling and nodding, but it’s weird not only because his nodding is not in time to the music – there’s a lack of any self-awareness of how hilarious he is. This is where I began to think Leo is on the Spectrum. 

 

See for yourself:

https://www.actualized.org/insights/adventures-in-vegas-part-4

 

It reminds me a bit of an SNL skit, with grandmaster level head nodding:

Jim Carrey head dance song SNL "What is love"

 

[Aware Wolf]

1 minute ago, Cupcake said:

@Aware Wolf  i feel sorry for people who put a lot of trust into everything, myself included.

Funnily enough, i came to my greatest insight after going through all the ego thumping that went on in that place. 

The greatest insight is love , absolute and pure love.

No amount of psychedelics or ego thumping is ever going to replace that.

If a person cannot come from a place of love, all of their teachings are hogwash. They won't mean much in the end.

 

 

 

Sound good! I think often there's guilt involved with people who've left teachers. But then again, people can outgrow teachers and leave a little older and wiser. A lot of the Path, imo, is a neti-neti approach, seeking and NOT finding. 

i'm not a particular fan of Eckhart Tolle but he's good at introducing people to spirituality and nondualism. I joke Eckhart Tolle is like the training bra for real spirituality. The difference between Tolle and with Leo and some of his ilk, (Daniel Ingram and Culadasa come to mind) are how obnoxious their fanboys can be. They have a map of truth and reality. This map is superior to others. These fanboys often have trouble in centers and ashrams because of their strongly-held concepts. They can be resistant to instructions. If Leo is God and Ingram is an arahant -- why should the fanboy listen to the directions of some no-name meditation teacher?  You can see where problems can enter in here. 
 

[Mandy]

10 hours ago, Cupcake said:

I always thought that enlightenment is a process. A spiritual process of understanding that only gets better and more fine tuned everyday.

I find it funny when people make enlightenment sound like some destination you gotta reach as fast as possible.

 

The irony is that if someone is hell bent on progressing, (becoming actualized or God realized or whatever the imagined finish line) then they close themselves off to any "real" progress. Because they believe themselves to be a fixed self who must maintain their identify as a fixed self progressing through time, they don't progress. 🤣 It's about the journey, not the destination and the real journey is to no longer see the destination as where my happiness lies in the future, but the here now as the true window to all fulfillment. In other words I already AM it. 

 

Reading Rupert Spira's book The Nature of Consciousness really brought home how enlightenment is not an attainment for someone, it's just the correction of a misunderstanding. That "I am a separate self" is the misunderstanding and because it's seems so prevalent, we get it twisted and paint enlightenment into being a spectacular achievement. If you resist scratching an itch and finally scratch it, you'll feel ecstasy. It's not that you have achieved some attainment, it's that you had an irritation that was holding you back and now you are noticing the relief.

 

Every attainment or honor we seek for that separate self is in vain. The separate self is the itch. The real love, and fulfillment is known by itself. It is not a thought of love and fulfillment, when we feel it we Know it, because we Are it.

 

On 4/2/2022 at 1:39 AM, Ges said:

I notice now that almost every time someone posts that they've somehow "gotten awake" on Actualized that Leo tells them that there is more.

The misunderstanding that a separate self can attain anything is exactly why this is such a pattern. People post for validation because they don't feel the real love that they sought and what do they get instead? 

[Faith]

4 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

That's your response?  I'm too tired to read?  Even if I felt that way I wouldn't say  that to someone. 

 

I didn't say that. Perhaps you need to look more closely to what you quoted.

 

It says, "maybe I'm tired", not,

"I'm too tired to read"-

 

On 4/1/2022 at 11:27 PM, Faith said:

maybe I'm tired, but you lost me!

I read it, three times...and, you lost me, which is why I said "maybe I'm tired", because it was late and I was tired.

 

Then, the next morning, I read it two more times and wrote you this post-

 

On 4/2/2022 at 8:14 AM, Faith said:

So, I'm awake now, lol, after a good night sleep and I reread your post and I still don't have a clue what you're talking about and how it relates to what I said, since you tagged me in it and said, "so not all of these ideas are directly pointed at you", which means at least a portion are directed at me.

 

  I said 4 things in my post-

 

1) I watched the video you referred to and it was painful to watch.

2) Every new video he claims he's  more awake then the last.

3) As far as he's concerned no one is awake, but him (including teachers/gurus)

4) I can't take the BS

 

So, what in your post was addressing what I said other then your first sentence? Which was, "Sometimes one's BS detector is right".

 

I would really like to understand, because if you are telling me off 😂, I'd like to at least understand what I'm being told off for, exactly. Just say it like I'm in grade-school, so there no misunderstanding.  

 

 

I can not "riff" off something I don't even understand. I don't understand what you were trying to say or why you were saying the things you were saying. So, how is it arrogant and dismissive when I ask you to please say it like I'm in grade school, so I understand and so there's no misunderstanding. 

4 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

That was a very heartfelt post that I thought you would react too in a different way

As I said, I don't know "what" you're saying. Which is why I asked you to clarify.

 

[Faith]

10 hours ago, Aware Wolf said:

 

 

 😂

[Joseph Maynor]

Wow. This is worth watching. This reminds me of the early Leo Gura back in 2014 when I first started watching him. I appreciate this video. This is the first Actualized video I've watched since the Holons video. This stuff just needs to be on the table for everyone and I give Leo credit for doing this because there are a lot of people who fight the unconcealing of this information for many reasons. Now that Leo is opening this pandora's box his followers will see that's it ok and not a threat to discuss these issues. I've been labeled as "over-thinking" for raising these issues in my writings and videos.  I'm glad to see Leo addressing these issues so we can have a good faith discussion and move beyond the tactics he talks about.  There is stuff he doesn't mention, but at least he makes it ok to have the discussion and doesn't try to silence this conversation from being had or ridiculing the people who are trying to shine light on these issues.
 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Ges]

@Joseph Maynor Awesome, man! Thank you for your insights. Waiting for part 2.

[Aware Wolf]

7 hours ago, Mandy said:

The irony is that if someone is hell bent on progressing, (becoming actualized or God realized or whatever the imagined finish line) then they close themselves off to any "real" progress. Because they believe themselves to be a fixed self who must maintain their identify as a fixed self progressing through time, they don't progress. 🤣 It's about the journey, not the destination and the real journey is to no longer see the destination as where my happiness lies in the future, but the here now as the true window to all fulfillment. In other words I already AM it. 

 

Agreed. A friend in a group when I vented about how I was watching all these YouTube Arahats, said "Anyone who says they are enlightened, isn't." 

It's a trap to overestimate one's achievements and attainments. It fossilizes growth. 

 

It's funny with Leo, when he lectures about the Zen Oxherding pictures, he warns how *some* teachers after having an initial awakening in picture #3, "Finding the Ox" (or #4, 5, 6) will believe their awakening is all there is and put out a teaching single. 

It's also a bit ironic that Leo will often post to others claims of attainments with "Your awakening is incomplete." 

Are there any Actualized "graduates" that Leo likes and says they've achieved? Do people ever grow and progress out of Leo and go on to teach or write books on their own? -- And Leo brags about them? Or does this never ever happen because there is only Leo. And Leo is God. 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Mandy said:

Reading Rupert Spira's book The Nature of Consciousness really brought home how enlightenment is not an attainment for someone, it's just the correction of a misunderstanding. That "I am a separate self" is the misunderstanding and because it's seems so prevalent, we get it twisted and paint enlightenment into being a spectacular achievement. If you resist scratching an itch and finally scratch it, you'll feel ecstasy. It's not that you have achieved some attainment, it's that you had an irritation that was holding you back and now you are noticing the relief.

 

Right. There's some analogies the Buddha used for this, that it's like a person cured of a malady, a traveler after a travel in a dangerous area arrives in a safe place, a prisoner released from jail. 

 

 

[Forza21]

13 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

 

Are there any Actualized "graduates" that Leo likes and says they've achieved? Do people ever grow and progress out of Leo and go on to teach or write books on their own? -- And Leo brags about them? Or does this never ever happen because there is only Leo. And Leo is God. 

 

This guy literary says he's above Jesus, Buddha, and every other spiritual teacher, so how come any of he's disciples would be "better" than him? 😄 😅

[Aware Wolf]

@Joseph Maynor I like the cut of your jib. 

I'm with you when you talked about how it's a mistake when people reject the relative in favor of the Absolute. 

There's an interview on Closer to Truth where the interviewee says eating a slice of pizza is just as valuable for consciousness as some

trancelike altered meditation state. I totally agree. Thich Nhat Hanh even is famous for an exercise he does where he does a guided meditation on

eating an orange. 

There's some people like Jim Newman, though he's not alone, there's several YouTuber Nondualists who do the same, which is they emphasize

the Emptiness of things. Blah blah blah. I listened to one of these whose name starts with an "A" and for an exercise skipped around to various times in her talk. The entire talk was different ways of saying There is no self. It's all an illusion. 

Here's my results:

"It seems there is talking and making a video, but there's not even that."
Dead silence. After 45 seconds I skipped again. A lot of these satsang types do this. 
Rambling dialogue unable to find a quote It reminds me of when people joke about freshman smoking marijuana for the first time in a college dorm.
"There is nothing to get. Nothing to attain. Nothing to become"

(15 minutes later) "There is nothing to know. Nothing to understand. And the nothing isn't a something to know or understand." (This sounds like nihilism)
(8 minutes later) "So there really is nothing to say because all words concepts cannot understand reality."

"There is no meaning. There is no anything. Meaning is conditional." 

_________________________________________________________________________________________

OKAY. I GET IT. 

Good on Newman and these other nondual bears (see Jeff Foster's funny youtube cartoon about the advaita trap) can make video after video

although there's nothing to say.  It seems to me being stuck on emptiness.

 

There may be no Jim Newman as he says. But you can't play that same game trying to register for his paid zoom satsang talk. Afterall, Who is Paying, Jim? They effin’ know the answer to that koan! You’re paying – with a valid credit card number. Only then will you really be free. 

 

 

 

[MetaSage]

I’m open that Leo may have had profound enlightenment experiences.

 

By their nature, communications about enlightenment are bound to be easily misunderstood and misinterpreted even if expressed lucidly. 
 

I think the rest is irrelevant.

 

I don’t know why you care so much. You spend so much time with these sorts of arguments that you may be equally involved in Leo’s persona as his “fanatics.”

Edited April 5, 2022 by MetaSage

[Iesu]

An angel's smile is what you sell
You promise me Heaven, then put me through hell

 

@LeoGura

 

[Aware Wolf]

2 hours ago, MetaSage said:

I’m open that Leo may have had profound enlightenment experiences.

 

By their nature, communications about enlightenment are bound to be easily misunderstood and misinterpreted even if expressed lucidly. 
 

The Rest is irrelevant, I don’t know why you care so much. You spent so much time with this you may be equally involved in Leo’s persona as his fanatics.

 

Lets do an experiment. Instead of Leo substitute: Charles Manson, Keith Raniere, Marshall Applewhite, Sogyal Rinpoche, Osho, and Muktananda. 

 

Does your point still hold? Are you still open for all of them to have had profound enlightenment experiences? If not, why does Leo get a free pass here? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. What evidence is there that Leo has had these profound experiences, huge insights, and he's on a higher level than any other teacher? Is it his Pickup videos? 

 

I mean Wild Wild Country was a huge hit. Helter Skelter. The Vow. 

 

Or is it just Leo? Is Leo too smalltime? 

 

I get the point Leo can be safely ignored. And time devoted to thinking about him could be devoted to oneself and one's Path. 

 

Then again, I'm grateful for the whistleblowers who devoted a huge chunk of their lives to bringing down Keith Raniere. Contributing to a thread on Leo Gura doesn't seem like a big deal. There's people that like to talk about the weather or their cats. There's people here that spent years on Leo's site. To not mention Leo seems like it would be strange. Is Leo some Voldemort that cannot be named? 

 

If it's not your cup of chai, there's other threads. To come to this one and complain about the subject seems wasted and judgemental. 

 

 

 

 

[Faith]

I think Actualized has become an echo chamber, which I really couldn't stand. I like diverse opinions, but that has become less and less as ppl get ridiculed for having different thoughts on spirituality or politics on that site.

 

He never was a teacher to me and never would be, as I find him not embodying his claims at all. For example on a Sunday video he would try to convince his audience he's the most awakened human in existence,  yet talk smack like a sexist pig on Monday on the dating subsection of his forum. 

 

Many women can't stomach being on his forum and would just leave. His audience tends to be males in there 20's and early 30's who won't mind talking about spirituality and making girls squirt in the same sentence. 

 

Most of the others, like myself, just didn't have another platform to use. Many other forums have died, unfortunately. I'm greatful that Phil has created this space. 🙌 

 

💙

 

[Joseph Maynor]

Be careful when someone (some other) wants to define what smart is with themselves at the apex of that.  You alone are at the apex.  You can't defer that to anyone else.  This is the most important lesson in masculine development work.  Women and feminine guys need to really grok this.  You're the sovereign.  Your feelings, gut feel, intuitions matter much more so than any hearsay opinion from someone else about what's what.   All another person can really provide you with is an analogy, a metaphor.  But you're the truth.  Keep that.  It's your wheelhouse, always, whether you realize that yet or not.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Blessed2]

32 minutes ago, Serenity said:

His relationship to women is indeed very juvenile.

 

Yeah... There is a whole ideology about survival, masculine & feminine, men and women going on.

 

It's basically just incel philosophy, but instead of complaining about it, it's adviced to play the game (manipulate) to win.

 

Oh, and the language is really weird there. Calling women girls, calling gender reassignment surgery "cutting one's dick off", belittling homosexuality: "dick in ass"... What's the point? Showing off how edgy and sexually wild you are?

[Blessed2]

@Serenity The whole feminine / masculine thing is kind of off-putting in this context for me. I don't like it.

 

I think it is quite misunderstood and confused in the context of sex and gender. I feel like there is some dishonesty in regard of this masculine / feminine - distinction and philosophy. For me it often seems like a smokescreen for aversion, suppression, misogyny, sexism.

 

I don't think Leo has really problems with the feminine per se. This isn't a feminine / masculine thing.

 

This is a gender / sex thing. He doesn't trust women. He undervalues and belittles women.

[Lotus]

20 minutes ago, Serenity said:

What are women if not feminine?

Masculine and feminine are polarities with varying degrees within each human being.

 

You could have: masculine men, feminine men, masculine women, feminine women - and "everything in between".