My thoughts of Leo and actualize.org. What do you think?

[Iesu]

On 3/20/2022 at 10:03 AM, Zeroguy said:

Love you man.

Right back at you

On 3/20/2022 at 10:01 AM, Phil said:

The emperor asked Bodhidharma: "What is the first principle?"

Bodhidharma said, "I don't know. I don't know is the first principle. There are no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity.”

- Shunryu Suzuki

The Ego is an Activity, Not an Entity

[Indisguise]

3 hours ago, DMT Elf said:

I also see why he rubs people the wrong way. It's because he's extremely blunt and to the point leaving virtually no room for game playing/mental masturbation. With Leo, either you're serious or you're not and there's no middle ground.

I'd say it's actually the other way round.

Leo's teaching style is one of the most intellectually stimulating. There is more than enough room to play mental games. His videos are hours long, talking about something which essentially can't be talked about. And "mental masturbation" is a huge problem in his forum. 

 

He is indeed a very serious person. Which is certainly useful up to a point. But what "should" happen when one is as "spiritually advanced" as Leo claims is that the seriousness with which one carries oneself and views life, diminishes and gives way to a childlike sincerity and un-seriousness that recognises that spirituality and enlightenment are not serious at all.

 

[Forza21]

6 hours ago, Indisguise said:

I'd say it's actually the other way round.

Leo's teaching style is one of the most intellectually stimulating. There is more than enough room to play mental games. His videos are hours long, talking about something which essentially can't be talked about. And "mental masturbation" is a huge problem in his forum. 

 

He is indeed a very serious person. Which is certainly useful up to a point. But what "should" happen when one is as "spiritually advanced" as Leo claims is that the seriousness with which one carries oneself and views life, diminishes and gives way to a childlike sincerity and un-seriousness that recognises that spirituality and enlightenment are not serious at all.

 

Exactly.

 

9 hours ago, DMT Elf said:

In my opinion Leo is the best spiritual teacher out there. 

I also see why he rubs people the wrong way. It's because he's extremely blunt and to the point leaving virtually no room for game playing/mental masturbation. With Leo, either you're serious or you're not and there's no middle ground. No room for running in circles for years and years never having your bubble broken.

Obviously feel free to disagree, but I thought I'd get my opinion in the mix.

i'm obviously self-bias, because of what happened to me, but there's a reason why from thousands of years, all the masters around, were talking as little as possible. With zen it's almost no words.

Because words are tricky. Words are interpreted by mind, based on our knowledge, previous experiences, associations, assumption etc. So it's extremely easy, too take even valid insight, and twist it in your way.  

This is what some master said, and i agree:
 

Quote

" The biggest enemy is your knowledge. The more you know It, the more you do not have it . Knowledge replace the true clarity. All knowledge is trash.All explanations are useless.All understandings are futile. Only true understanding happens when true clarity appears.True clarity comes when all knowledge fades. True understanding comes out of non-knowledge, but petty understanding comes with knowledge. True clarity comes out of non-knowledge but petty clarity comes through knowledge. Petty knowledge and petty understanding is food for mind but heart remain always thirsty. Quench the thirst of heart but not the greed of mind. Mind is greedy for knowledge , it makes its survival , it gives it safety , power, control , dominance ,satisfactions, relaxation,this in turn gives some good feeling and some happiness which is mistaken to true experience. These petty happiness and good feelings always leave pain behind. Heart is thirsty of experience.Heart is not interested into knowing but having it ,heart is not interested in observing of ocean but to dive into it. Heart is not the viewer or watcher but it is mirror where everything reflects. Heart is not interested in gaining or achieving . This is not an emotional heart which is extension of mind. The language of heart is neither win nor loss, neither happiness nor sadness , whatever comes in its way is its way. It does not know what is choosing, it does not know what is fear , it does not know what is knowing. The heart neither stops nor becomes tired . Do not seek experience but be it. So throw away the bags of burden and mountains of knowledge from your shoulders."
 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Forza21

[Mandy]

I'd ask what it is that is being taken seriously or not seriously? A self? 

[Blessed2]

6 hours ago, DMT Elf said:

The best spiritual teachers are the ones who can burst people's bubbles and prevent belief systems and ideologies from forming. This is tough considering how tricky ideologies can be. From what I've seen, Leo is extremely good at it. 

 

How does Leo usually go with bursting bubbles and defusing beliefs? Where have you seen him do this?

 

For me it seems that non-ideology, non-belief and non-dogma is talked and mentioned often, but not really implemented. Usually it's more like attacking / belittling other ideas, perspectives and belief systems with narratives about ego, survival, self-deception, avoidance of truth, levels, stages, and whatnot. This has nothing to do with direct experience nor bubble bursting, it's just belief system and acts out like any other belief systems.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Blessed2

[Orb]

@DMT Elf 

1 hour ago, DMT Elf said:

@Blessed2

Yeah, you can't really escape beliefs. So, it's best to have the highest quality beliefs possible. 

This is a trick, there's no higher quality beliefs. A belief is a belief that's it.

 

We have many methods of postponing truth, you just want to believe in something, and say you believe in something higher quality to make it seem like you're getting somewhere, but it's still beliefs.

[Phil]

@DMT Elf

It might be missed or underestimated, just how ‘sticky’ conceptual “teachings” (rhetoric of ego / spiritual ego) can be… is. That there is a you which can or can’t, does or doesn’t, will or won’t ‘escape beliefs’ is the belief.  Beliefs are the veil, the activity of thought. Of course it ‘must’ be said ‘imo’ 🙂 … but ‘it’ is most definitely not about ‘having the right or best or highest quality beliefs’… beliefs are beliefs. By definition beliefs aren’t true.  There aren’t “levels” of beliefs… “levels” is a belief. As was said, jump into the mirage (inspect) to see it is actually the desert, vs calling the desert by the mirage.

 

There is no difference between “the highest quality greatest beliefs of all time” lol, and believing the thought ant is perception, or that there is “perception”. There is literally no such thing as an accurate model of reality; the ‘model’ is reality ‘too’. That is thought attachment. That in & of itself is rhetoric. This is the “cult” factor, and beliefs are why no one ‘in’ a cult can hear that. ‘It’ really is ‘this’. (There’s no one ‘in’ a cult, it’s just group / shared belief, which is a not noticing of this factor, which is non inspection).

 

“Value” (and purpose & meaning) is a real ‘stickler’ imo. Not in an “admin” or “moderating” sense… in an if you’re interested sense… reference the section from The Buddha in the forum principles. The Truth really is the end of a suffering which never really transpired. ‘Two cents’ but… I’d pay much more attention to what Veganawake ‘shares’.. ‘over there’. 🙂 🤍  

 

There’s no “great guy” “over here” lol. Explained that when we hung out. Was not received. No “teacher”. No “relative and absolute” to “conflate”, no “conflation” or “conflator”, no “conspiracy”, no “controversy”, no “corrective messages sent over the years”, no “neo advaita”, lmao, at all. There wasn’t a single pm from ‘Nahm’ to a member. None. That’s what manipulative rhetoric / defending spiritual ego / defending thought attachment & ideology is. I hope these comments find you well and lead to much laughter, and appreciate ‘your’ participation ‘here’. 

 

Also, if interested… 

 

It’s about what the bubbles are made of, not about replacing bubbles with someone else’s ‘better’ bubbles. That is what conjecture is. Illustratively, the bubble on the left is filled with beliefs, the bubble on the right is clarity or, ‘seeing reality as it is’. Actual wakefulness, nonduality. Notice the sphere on the left can barely even be seen through. What’s seen there (left sphere) is the bubbles - not ‘reality as it is’. 

 

“Vapid”, “Lacking in social acuity”, “his big heart”, “the problem”, “failure”, “lack”.  😂   

Seeing ‘it’? The manipulation? See why & how “trust” is employed / used?

Notice private messages shared without consent… yet not a single ‘person’ asks to see these Nahm to members alleged messages. 

 

🤦🏼

 

Inspect yall! 

 

If anything said here seems “vague” and or isn’t understood… one can always simply… ask and further the discussion. I wouldn’t dream of asking you to leave alternatively. Who’d of guessed incompatibility could be so resonating. 🤍

 

 

 

 

(Gets back to ‘trauma bonding’ with Chris Rock)

😂

[Blessed2]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Illustratively, the bubble on the left is filled with beliefs, the bubble on the right is clarity or, ‘seeing reality as it is’. Actual wakefulness, nonduality.

 

Reminds me of this book I once read, it talks about ACIM.

 

The left page is "Outlook of ego" and right page is "Outlook of Holy Spirit". 😁

 

[Phil]

@Blessed2

🎯 

[Ges]

It is interesting how power works. A good number of people with at least two former Actualized mods disagree with Leo, but have been silent all along up until now.

As for the mods, I wonder if this is simply about losing the green letters.

[Mandy]

@Ges Consider for a minute, if there's hierarchy and power assumed with forum moderation, and the forum is there to serve one person, moderation hierarchy is basically just a way to get people to work for you for free. 🤷‍♂️ 

[Orb]

@Ges Leo created a great thing initially when he made the forum, and those who had cessation unfold for them are only concerned with helping members of the forum, and not bashing on Leo. 

 

I mean it's a tricky thing, you're woke, you're on a cool forum filled with so many people you can bless (I was one of them 😇), BUT the person running the forum has got some....hang ups.

[Ges]

8 minutes ago, Mandy said:

@Ges Consider for a minute, if there's hierarchy and power assumed with forum moderation, and the forum is there to serve one person, moderation hierarchy is basically just a way to get people to work for you for free. 🤷‍♂️ 

With all due respect, how is this relevant to my post?

[Ges]

8 minutes ago, Orb said:

@Ges Leo created a great thing initially when he made the forum, and those who had cessation unfold for them are only concerned with helping members of the forum, and not bashing on Leo. 

 

I mean it's a tricky thing, you're woke, you're on a cool forum filled with so many people you can bless (I was one of them 😇), BUT the person running the forum has got some....hang ups.

Yeah, I get that.

All I'm saying is that not many here seemed to mind Leo's "hang-ups" when they were there. But here suddenly, Leo is not infallible anymore. Suddenly, he has hang-ups.

Is Leo really that scary?

Edited March 29, 2022 by Ges

[Orb]

@Ges

 

It makes a lot of sense actually, think about it:

 

You don't agree with the creator of the forum youre in but you see so many awesome people there, this forum is also known for banning anyone who speaks out against consciousnessism.

 

You understand that if you speak out against leo on the forum you will eventually be banned right? So of course a lot of people stayed quiet, I personally have made good friends with some people on there.

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

Hello, as someone who has been critical of Leo and Actualized community for some time, then I must admit I am interested in what is unfolding here, and so thought I would pop my head in to have a nosey around. I wasn't sure what to expect when I heard there was this "fracturing" of the Actualized membership, but what I see here so far it all looks fairly reasonable. I do recognize a few names of folks who were looking to burn me for daring to be critical of Leo, funny how things work out huh?

 

One of my issues with Actualized has been their fanatical defensiveness of "the leader" and that all he says is gospel. I hope you will avoid such mistakes in this community as it grows, and all the other toxic self aggrandizing behaviour which has become the norm over there. I think that enough people have shat in the well over there that the water is no longer fit for consumption, so a soft reboot like this might be just what is needed.

Anyway, I wish you all the best with your new community.

[Mandy]

@Ges You are giving power to the belief in power itself. It's all your own power. So your assumption and question is all based on the assumption that others have power. And when we assume that, they do. 

 

It's all a peer amid scheme. No one is at the the top. The whole thing if your own making. 

 

Consider the pick up tactics being taught for a minute. You think that's JUST about getting women? Nope. That's a glorious window into how the ENTIRE place is run, the main target is 20 something males, not women. But if you think you're really a male or a woman, you'll miss all this. If you think a woman is writing this out her bias and pass it off as that, you'll miss how you manipulate yourself.  

 

@Adeptus Psychonautica Welcome! 

 

[Ges]

3 minutes ago, Orb said:

@Ges

 

It makes a lot of sense actually, think about it:

 

You don't agree with the creator of the forum youre in but you see so many awesome people there, this forum is also known for banning anyone who speaks out against consciousnessism.

 

You understand that if you speak out against leo on the forum you will eventually be banned right? So of course a lot of people stayed quiet, I personally have made good friends with some people on there.

So basically compromising honesty for digital survival. That's what I call development.

[Ges]

2 minutes ago, Mandy said:

@Ges You are giving power to the belief in power itself. It's all your own power. So your assumption and question is all based on the assumption that others have power. And when we assume that, they do. 

 

It's all a peer amid scheme. No one is at the the top. The whole thing if your own making. 

Many would agree with you in theory, but how many have the balls to actually apply that in practice? I got banned several times for not believing in the power hierarchy and you know it, so I think you're teaching the wrong person.

2 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Consider the pick up tactics being taught for a minute. You think that's JUST for and about women? Nope. That's a glorious window into how the ENTIRE place is run, the main target is 20 something males, not women. But if you think you're really a male or a woman, you'll miss all this. If you think a woman is writing this out her bias and pass it off as that, you'll miss how you manipulate yourself. 

 

Maybe. I don't have a fixed position there.

[Orb]

@Ges see it however you'd like. 

 

These same people who apparently compromised honesty infected some of us with that infinite Love 😁.