My thoughts of Leo and actualize.org. What do you think?

[Indisguise]

2 hours ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

I see a lot of comments which will use some variant of the following in order to justify why we should listen to Leo "listen to the teachings not the teacher" which sounds reasonable on face value, but at some point you have to make a judgement call on whether or not the teacher has got any grasp of the thing they are teaching.

Good point. It's not possible to separate teacher from teaching.

Becase there's no such thing as "the teaching" as something in its own right. If there was, people wouldn't listen to Gurus and teachers in the first place. 

 

He is just a dude, definitely - but at the same time, he's not just a dude.

He will literally gaslight people into their own peril, because he lacks compassion and embodiment. It's still an intellectual game to him, even though the stage has changed from "philosophy" to "spirituality" and "realizations". 

 

 At the same time, he provides immense amounts of value - for free. So a pure anti-Leo campaign wouldn't be appropriate.

 

Go pick cherries.

[Ges]

On Actualized moderation team...

 

I've always had problems with the way that forum is moderated. And I admit, I've been problematic too. I can be very difficult to deal with sometimes.

However, the issue is still there, not only for me but for many people. I think of Actualized moderation team as children with guns, they don't know how or when to use them, so they end up causing more harm than good. Honestly, the best moderator there I think is Leo himself. He often makes proper judgments, and rarely misses. He has been consistent with that since ever I knew him.

I don't want to name names, but I don't think moderators who are too passive are good either. It's a balance, and a combination of multiple factors. For example, a moderator should be able to be impartial, detached from ego, and constructive. They should be able to exercise containment as well as strong boundaries. As well, they should have patience, good intentions, and good interpersonal skills. Unfortunately, many Actualized mods don't meet most of these criteria (especially the more active ones), as Leo picks them mainly based on loyalty, later more so than earlier. But to be fair, there are a handful of really good mods that have earned my respect over the years.

The problems that I have faced the most with some of the mods is poor judgment and top-down communication style, which put simply is inflated ego and abuse of power. There is a certain form of bureaucracy going on there that enables the aforementioned behaviors. Some mods seem to use their powers just because they can, regardless of effect. They're too liberal with the warnings and the points, and think that they're "enforcing" the guidelines that way, but I think on a deeper level the bigger motivation is a desire to dominate and show power. They don't distinguish between honest and genuine behavior that is problematic and between malevolent and destructive behavior that is actually problematic.

 

Again, I am not an angel, but to me the moderation team there is a net negative on average, at least in terms of development.

 

Would be interested to hear everyone's thoughts too.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Ges

[Joseph Maynor]

@Ges Anyone who doesn't eventually become a fighter in that environment I would question.  Passivity is violence sometimes. 
 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Ges]

@Joseph Maynor Agreed 👍

[Space4This]

@Ges

It's easy to judge moderators, because they're supposed to represent a standard, but it creates an asymmetry where users go out of their way to bend the rules while trying to pick holes in their behavior. They will throw tantrums, make personal attacks and second-guess their every move, and it poisons the entire moderating process. For the users, the only line is at the bottom, but for the moderators, it's a tightrope walk. If they see you as being too aggressive, they will protest. If they think you're too passive, they will protest. There is rarely any trust or good faith. To enforce any type of rule set in that kind of environment without stepping on anyone's toes is impossible.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Space4This

[Joseph Maynor]

Even if we can agree that no preference is ultimate or absolute because if it's here it's natural -- that doesn't mean it's smart to say or do certain things with your words. The Buddhists call this right speech. Just because you think something, that doesn't mean there's no space between that thought and what is wholesome to come out of your mouth. So morality is important. It's important to be diplomatic if you're a man in how you talk about relating with women. It's incredibly important. Again, this is the nuance, the finesse, the judgment call; what separates the gentleman from the other kind of guy. And you might say, well, the gentleman is not being honest, or some other objection. But think about this, if we all said what we really felt all the time about people we wouldn't have a civilized society! So, I pay critical attention when I assess someone's character in how they use words. And if you're a man using wrong speech to talk about women, to me that's just messed up, because women can be an easy target in that way, and I think it's on every man to speak well of women especially if you're talking about dating and sex and so on. But this might just be my preference, and I'm fine with that too. You can feel a certain way without having to say that in words publicly. You can control your words despite your thoughts, and I want to argue that this is good lying -- right speech involves good lying/right lying. If one has a racist or sexist thought, it's probably best to keep that to yourself and say something much more diplomatic with your use of words.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Aware Wolf]

@Adeptus Psychonautica

@Mandy

 

Indeed. Leo is just a dude. 

He's not all that. He's a bullshit authority when it comes to psychedelics (see Adeptus's videos) and he's bullshit when it comes to spiritual teachings (see the myriad posts here. I did one where I lambast him for getting "non-thinking" very wrong in his zen oxherding video. He also said in that video on non-thinking that "if your dog dies, you're okay with that" and real zen masters would cringe on that. Part of zen is freedom and having a full range of human emotions, not disassociating oneself from human relationships and emotions. Awakening is not becoming a zombie. Yet he boasts his insight is greater than zen masters with decades of experience. 

 

I watched his Solipsism video that was taken down and started yelling at the screen at times (e.g., when he claimed his drug trip insight that he was God were scientifically validated because they were reprodicible. -- That's definitely not how science works, Bucko. Schizophrenics often have recurring delusions and that doesn't mean they're scientific. 

 

I think a red flag is when a teacher or guru often gives teachings on subjects that are outside of their wheelhouse. Both Leo and Sadhguru give authoritative talks on subjects that they're hardly experts on. When Sadhguru talks about women and women's health issues (like menstruation) there's some real howlers. There's a Sadhguru video where he says in 50,000 years, the moon will drift away far enough away from the earth to no longer be in thrall to earth's gravity. When this happens, Sadhguru says, women will stop having periods and that will be the end of the human race. No. I could go into facts why all this is wrong, but there's google and if you're interested, google moon drift and whether women's periods are actually caused by (or tied to) the moon (it's a myth). Interestingly enough, Leo also has some real howlers when it comes to women too. 

 

I don't quite understand the Actualized fawning over Leo when there's real masters and their teachings available. 

I highly recommend the Youtube channel Samaneri Jayasara which has audio reading of top notch masters. 

[Robed Mystic]

1 hour ago, Aware Wolf said:

@Adeptus Psychonautica

@Mandy

 

Indeed. Leo is just a dude. 

He's not all that. He's a bullshit authority when it comes to psychedelics (see Adeptus's videos) and he's bullshit when it comes to spiritual teachings (see the myriad posts here. I did one where I lambast him for getting "non-thinking" very wrong in his zen oxherding video. He also said in that video on non-thinking that "if your dog dies, you're okay with that" and real zen masters would cringe on that. Part of zen is freedom and having a full range of human emotions, not disassociating oneself from human relationships and emotions. Awakening is not becoming a zombie. Yet he boasts his insight is greater than zen masters with decades of experience. 

 

I watched his Solipsism video that was taken down and started yelling at the screen at times (e.g., when he claimed his drug trip insight that he was God were scientifically validated because they were reprodicible. -- That's definitely not how science works, Bucko. Schizophrenics often have recurring delusions and that doesn't mean they're scientific. 

 

I think a red flag is when a teacher or guru often gives teachings on subjects that are outside of their wheelhouse. Both Leo and Sadhguru give authoritative talks on subjects that they're hardly experts on. When Sadhguru talks about women and women's health issues (like menstruation) there's some real howlers. There's a Sadhguru video where he says in 50,000 years, the moon will drift away far enough away from the earth to no longer be in thrall to earth's gravity. When this happens, Sadhguru says, women will stop having periods and that will be the end of the human race. No. I could go into facts why all this is wrong, but there's google and if you're interested, google moon drift and whether women's periods are actually caused by (or tied to) the moon (it's a myth). Interestingly enough, Leo also has some real howlers when it comes to women too. 

 

I don't quite understand the Actualized fawning over Leo when there's real masters and their teachings available. 

I highly recommend the Youtube channel Samaneri Jayasara which has audio reading of top notch masters. 

 

You guys are too hung up on teachers and nitpicking them.  That's one of the reasons you yourself are not yet a master or awake.  And yes I can tell you aren't because otherwise you would not be deferring to other masters.  That's why I was saying you guys need to look at the non-dual teachings (from whichever teacher - and i believe as far as the core teachings Leo is one of the better ones- as is Peter Ralston and Adyashanti) and do the practices rather than worrying about criticism.  Personally after a careful review of the particular criticisms held by Adeptus - he is right that Leo got ahead of himself and made some claims that were not true - i.e that enlightenment fixes everything in your life.  That said - in a way he wasnt wrong because the two are entangled.  Meaning you won't be enlightened until you have grown wise enough to fix some of the issues in your life on your own - whether that be through suffering/selfishness or the like.  So that when you do reach enlightenment(because YOU were ready)  your life is that much better.   And  you have total consciousness of your own shortcomings..i.e. selfishness, as a human. You have understanding.  Understanding of yourself and reality, because they are One.  And understanding is the key to a better life.  It is the key to happiness, selflessness, integrity and most of all to Lpve.

So, spend less time criticizing others.  Spend more time loving yourself and you will become the Master.  The Master of your own Reality.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Robed Mystic

[Aware Wolf]

@Robed Mystic

4 minutes ago, Robed Mystic said:

 

You guys are too hung up on teachers and nitpicking them.  That's one of the reasons you yourself are not yet a master or awake.  And yes I can tell you aren't because otherwise you would not be referencing other masters. 

 

Wow. You can tell all that about me. 

 

Do this one now -- What finger am I holding up?? 

 

I fail to find any logic that someone who has had spiritual experiences or an awakening would not reference others and other teachers and teachings. The Buddha did. Ramana did. Adyashanti who you reference does. 

 

9 minutes ago, Robed Mystic said:

 

 Meaning you won't be enlightened until you have gotten wise enough to fix some of the issues in your life on your own - whether that be through suffering/selflessness or the like.  So that when you do reach enlightenment- your life is that mich better.  And  you have total consciousness of your shortcomings as a human - you have understanding.  And understanding is the key to a better life.  To happiness- and to selflessness.  And to Lpve.

So, spend less time criticizing others.  Spend more time loving yourself and you will become the Master.  The Master of your own Reality.

 

Thank you for this insight. Did you learn this from Leo? If you did, I don't know what to say.  Is English your native language? This is like level 1 Kindergarten spirituality. No offense, but it's true. 

 

12 minutes ago, Robed Mystic said:

 

YSo that when you do reach enlightenment- your life is that mich better. 

"So that when you do reach enlightenment- your life is that much better. "

 

Umm. Good Grief. Okay. This seems rather elementary. Okay, enlightenment is a good thing is what you're saying? LOL

 

13 minutes ago, Robed Mystic said:

 

  And  you have total consciousness of your shortcomings as a human - you have understanding.  And understanding is the key to a better life.  To happiness- and to selflessness.  And to Lpve.

So, spend less time criticizing others.  Spend more time loving yourself and you will become the Master.  The Master of your own Reality.

 

A red flag and one of the things I despise about the spiritual marketplace, especially some of the New Age or some Nondualists is how they revert to cliches, sometimes ad nauseum. "Total consciousness." "Become the Master" "Master of Reality". They can make me throw up a little in my mouth. 

Also, do you find it a just a wee bit hypocritical to come on this thread and complain and criticize others who criticize Leo. Why aren't you taking your own advice and doing whatever practices you find beneficial on your Path? Yet here you are.

 

I wondered if you'd let go and not respond here, but I kinda figured you were at a level you'd be drawn in.  Most of us are at this level.

 

I know you're probably struggling here with hitting reply and responding or realizing the truth of what I'm saying and that you might could follow your own advice. Evidently this thread is not a waste of time and obviously it's worthy of your attention. You've shown it is. You've also demonstrated how it's okay to critiicize other people (just not Leo).  Most everyone else on this thread is wrong, but you're the awakenened one showing us all a better way and we should not criticize Leo and instead go do Practice (which you've left undefined).  Does this strike you as perhaps a bit arrogant or egotistical? 

I hope this doesn't come across as mean. 

 

Peace, out. 

 

 

[Robed Mystic]

26 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

@Robed Mystic

 

Wow. You can tell all that about me. 

 

Do this one now -- What finger am I holding up

 

 

Yeah I can.  How old are you?  Your in your twenties at the most.   I can tell by your arrogance.   I'm in my 50s and I'm old enough to be your Dad.  I have lived as a selfish fuck just like you and i have suffered a hell of a lot for it.

 

26 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

@Robed Mystic

 

Wow. You can tell all that about me. 

 

Do this one now -- What finger am I holding up?? 

 

I fail to find any logic that someone who has had spiritual experiences or an awakening would not reference others and other teachers and teachings. The Buddha did. Ramana did. Adyashanti who you reference does. 

 

 

Thank you for this insight. Did you learn this from Leo? If you did, I don't know what to say.  Is English your native language? This is like level 1 Kindergarten spirituality. No offense, but it's true. 

 

 

 

Leo is you.  But your not there yet.  You only teach yourself.    Everyone out there is you because reality is One thing.  Any teacher will tell you this.  We stand on the shoulders of giants but those giants are us in disguise.  Do not hate this.  Love this.  

26 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

@Robed Mystic

 

 

I know you're probably struggling here with hitting reply and responding or realizing the truth of what I'm saying and that you might could follow your own advice. Evidently this thread is not a waste of time and obviously it's worthy of your attention. You've shown it is. You've also demonstrated how it's okay to critiicize other people (just not Leo).  Most everyone else on this thread is wrong, but you're the awakenened one showing us all a better way and we should not criticize Leo and instead go do Practice (which you've left undefined).  Does this strike you as perhaps a bit arrogant or egotistical? 

I hope this doesn't come across as mean. 

 

Peace, out. 

 

 

Leo is just you and you are mortal and make mistakes.  He can be wrong about a lot of things.  What he hasn't learned yet is humility.   I learned this long ago.  If I'm wrong I will always say I'm wrong.  But I'm not wrong.  I'm not saying your criticism of Leo is wrong I'm saying look beyond the person.   I'm trying to help you awaken.  If this comes off as arrogant then that is not intention.  Hence i said there are other good articulaters of the Truth out there.

I can come across as arrogant sometimes but it's passion.  No I didn't take your response as mean at all.

26 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

@Robed Mystic

 

 

 

I fail to find any logic that someone who has had spiritual experiences or an awakening would not reference others and other teachers and teachings. The Buddha did. Ramana did. Adyashanti who you reference does. 

 

 

I

Its the way you did it.  Or at least maybe have something you can add to these teachers for yourself regarding Truth.   I haven't seen that yet.  Just a whole bunch of  nitpicking and nothing original to offer.

 

26 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

@Robed Mystic

 

 

Also, do you find it a just a wee bit hypocritical to come on this thread and complain and criticize others who criticize Leo. Why aren't you taking your own advice and doing whatever practices you find beneficial on your Path? Yet here you are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not really.  Did the practices and they did not require psychedelics. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Robed Mystic

[Aware Wolf]

1 minute ago, Robed Mystic said:

Yeah I can.  How old are you?  Your in your twenties at the most.   I can tell by your arrogance.   I'm in my 50s and I'm old enough to be your Dad.  I have lived as a selfish fuck just like you and i have suffered a hell of a for jt.

 

 

Yet here you are again, in a thread you are critical of others because they dare to criticize Leo. 

As far as your prediction and your feelings about me and my age, Well,  I'll just say don't quit your day job and try to make it as a psychic. 

There's a funny saying: "Assume everyone who engages with you on the Internet is a 15 year old boy" so maybe try to have a little more tolerance, Dad! :-) 

I'm glad you didn't consider my post as mean. 

I don't think there's any benefit in engaging with you anymore on this. I think I've proven my point. There's no point in baiting a dead horse. 

Metta and may your practices prove beneficial for you. 

[Robed Mystic]

13 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

 

Yet here you are again, in a thread you are critical of others because they dare to criticize Leo. 

As far as your prediction and your feelings about me and my age, Well,  I'll just say don't quit your day job and try to make it as a psychic. 

There's a funny saying: "Assume everyone who engages with you on the Internet is a 15 year old boy" so maybe try to have a little more tolerance, Dad! 🙂

I'm glad you didn't consider my post as mean. 

I don't think there's any benefit in engaging with you anymore on this. I think I've proven my point. There's no point in baiting a dead horse. 

Metta and may your practices prove beneficial for you. 

Sure.   Run off like you always do.

 

So what is your age then?   

 

Dude.  I don't give a fuck about Leo

 

Reality is One.  You ARE him.   And you ARE the chair that you sit in.  You ARE the phone your typing this on. 

 

Truth or Oneness  is independent of all teachers.   When you learn this you will have awoken.  

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Robed Mystic

[Faith]

 

 

💙

[Robed Mystic]

5 minutes ago, Faith said:

 

 

💙

Oh stop 😀

[Joseph Maynor]

2 hours ago, Robed Mystic said:

You guys are too hung up on teachers and nitpicking them.  That's one of the reasons you yourself are not yet a master or awake.  And yes I can tell you aren't because otherwise you would not be deferring to other masters.  That's why I was saying you guys need to look at the non-dual teachings (from whichever teacher - and i believe as far as the core teachings Leo is one of the better ones- as is Peter Ralston and Adyashanti) and do the practices rather than worrying about criticism. 

This is characteristic of the kind of response you'll find on Actualized.org.  If one were to analyze or deconstruct this it wouldn't do any good.   

Does this sound familiar?   Don't worry about it.  Just assume who the teacher is.  If you don't like it, it's your fault.  You're never the teacher.  You're not awake, they are, etc.  The exact same talking points.  I could analyze this deeper if I wanted to, but I choose to just note a few things in order to make my point.

But then imagine 10 users all doing this and piling on you in the exact same way and then the moderators doing nothing about it.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Robed Mystic]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

This is characteristic of the kind of response you'll find on Actualized.org.  If one were to analyze or deconstruct this it wouldn't do any good.   

Does this sound familiar?   Don't worry about it.  Just assume who the teacher is.  If you don't like it, it's your fault.  You're never the teacher.  You're not awake, they are, etc.  The exact same talking points. 

But then imagine 10 users all doing this and piling on you in the exact same way and then the moderators doing nothing about it.

What are you doing right now?  Your being bias

  Look at what myself and @MetaSage told you and do it minus the bias.

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Robed Mystic said:

What are you doing right now?  Your being bias

  Look at what myself and @MetaSage told you and do it minus the bias.

 

We all have bias, and bias isn't always bad.  Should we let everyone out of prison due to bias?

[Joseph Maynor]

4 hours ago, Aware Wolf said:

I don't quite understand the Actualized fawning over Leo when there's real masters and their teachings available. 

 

I understand this very well.  Loyalty of this kind can be created by certain people in their discourse/rhetoric and actions, especially when there's a community one is addicted to where these ideas are reinforced.  There's a tactic, logic, and source of this phenomenon that comes from the top.  This is not new.  I could easily give examples of this where we would all see this so clearly and you can probably think of some, but I won't.  You can actually study this phenomenon.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Robed Mystic]

22 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

 

We all have bias, and bias isn't always bad.  Should we let everyone out of prison due to bias?

Bias is bias.  No we shouldn't let everyone out of prison and we shouldn't dismiss a teacher because of who they are and thus not look at their communication.  We should look at the communication and not the teacher.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Robed Mystic

[Faith]

3 minutes ago, Robed Mystic said:

Bias is bias.  No we shouldn't let everyone out of prison and we shouldn't dismiss a teacher because of who they are not the communication. 

I'm not understanding the purpose of the screenshots (?), but you're down to 30% juice! I never let mine run that low. 😁