Actualized.org was SO discordant

[Loop]

3 minutes ago, Winter said:

Just a way to paint a picture. If you say "feeling is good, thinking is bad" you are painting a picture. Every sentence paints one.

I never once in our conversation said that thinking was bad. 
Unnoticed thinking can cause a lot of pain, 

That isn’t good or bad.  
 

[Winter]

1 minute ago, Loop said:

I never once in our conversation said that thinking was bad. 
Unnoticed thinking can cause a lot of pain, 

That isn’t good or bad.  
 

Not implying you did, just giving an example 🙂

[Loop]

@Winter

 

Sure 👍

Where does thought come from? 
 

[Winter]

18 minutes ago, Mandy said:

 

This sort of applies to your comments, and also sort of goes off in a sweeping tangent, so... you've been warned. 😂

 

I think that if we were talking about the aftermath of Osho's commune here, it would be very important and valuable to have a place where people could discuss and unwind after that. It also likely wouldn't be a place that would appeal to someone who wasn't a member of the commune or very familiar with Osho's teachings.  Osho said some absolutely awful and disgusting things, and also some brilliant stuff. Same as Leo. Leadership façade and failings were different. Maybe we should just stop appointing leaders. Like the Winter Solstice became a celebration about some male (Jesus), and then latter another purely fictional male (Santa), as good hearted as they were or weren't, maybe our projection of heroes and villains is the root of the discord, not the dude.  Yer never gonna unwind that call of yarn. Feels better to rest in your shared appreciation of Siamese cats and electronic music and if you can't, just say what ya gotta say. 

Sure! Let's have that space but let's also call out counter productive actions that seek more of what Osho is doing right now, long after we have left. Doing that perpetuates the pain of the traumatized self and goes against the point of unwinding. Let's talk about how it affected us but let's not continue seeking hate.

 

26 minutes ago, Loop said:

Where does thought come from?

What's a "where"?

[Loop]

@Winter

 

Your dam underwear! 😂

Just saying if one gets super caught up in Non-Dual Truth they cannot feel ‘their feet on the ground’ in a sense’,

Not saying you are, but someone might start gaslighting themself into repression by saying things like, “There is nowhere , nothing is going on” “It is just Oneness” “Trauma is just a concept” “Pain is just a concept”, 

When really one is clenching their ass in anticipation of whatever is next,

Thought is ‘stuck to’ feeling, hindering the flow of energies, 

It is kinda pointless and doesn’t help with healing when we just throw everything out the tub,

Don’t forget the baby, Healing must be a priority, not just Truth. 

 

26 minutes ago, Winter said:

Let's talk about how it affected us but let's not continue seeking hate.

We are talking about how it affected us, it is in between the lines a lot. We don’t gotta talk about it directly to process, everyone has their own way off handling trauma. I don’t see anyone here ‘seeking hate’. Just learning & healing. Hate is emotional guidance, not something that can be sought.

There is no ‘pain of the traumatized self’ there is just pain/ trauma, which is a feeling first, conceptualization second. Trauma is emotional, feeling covered or hidden by conceptualization caught in the body, particularly conceptualizations we refer to as ‘self-referential thoughts’ or ‘Thought-Loops’. These are thing such as ‘traumatized self’, which there really isn’t, it is a self-referential thought covering the trauma. 
 

Then feeling ‘in between the lines’ of what is being said is more important than covering everything in Snow. 
 

[Reena]

11 hours ago, Loop said:

@Winter

 

Your dam underwear! 😂

Just saying if one gets super caught up in Non-Dual Truth they cannot feel ‘their feet on the ground’ in a sense’,

Not saying you are, but someone might start gaslighting themself into repression by saying things like, “There is nowhere , nothing is going on” “It is just Oneness” “Trauma is just a concept” “Pain is just a concept”, 

When really one is clenching their ass in anticipation of whatever is next,

Thought is ‘stuck to’ feeling, hindering the flow of energies, 

It is kinda pointless and doesn’t help with healing when we just throw everything out the tub,

Don’t forget the baby, Healing must be a priority, not just Truth. 

 

We are talking about how it affected us, it is in between the lines a lot. We don’t gotta talk about it directly to process, everyone has their own way off handling trauma. I don’t see anyone here ‘seeking hate’. Just learning & healing. Hate is emotional guidance, not something that can be sought.

There is no ‘pain of the traumatized self’ there is just pain/ trauma, which is a feeling first, conceptualization second. Trauma is emotional, feeling covered or hidden by conceptualization caught in the body, particularly conceptualizations we refer to as ‘self-referential thoughts’ or ‘Thought-Loops’. These are thing such as ‘traumatized self’, which there really isn’t, it is a self-referential thought covering the trauma. 
 

Then feeling ‘in between the lines’ of what is being said is more important than covering everything in Snow. 
 

I like your comments. You are very empathetic and understandimg 

[Joseph Maynor]

I notice that when something or someone gets a reputation for being criticized and it's public (like on the Internet) other people jump on the bandwagon and pile on it taking incredibly small things and inflating them to seem really bad.  I guess the same holds for the reverse when something gets a reputation for being praised the logic works the other way: People give extra benefit of the doubt and want to take incredibly bad things and make them seem not so bad or even good.  It's kind of a scapegoating and reverse scapegoating trigger and then a piling on.  I guess the thing to do is to avoid a bad reputation in the first place because it becomes like a negative vortex where people get off scapegoating you and doing it collectively because they know it's safe to do it.  You make yourself into a safe, inviting target for those who want to lash out to get a laugh and also to get a little hit of feeling superior or better than you.  It's good to have people overlook your flaws so long as you don't become complacent because that's an artificial bubble that can burst causing a lot of different problems or even just mediocrity.  Suffering pain is what gives you the motivation to change yourself or something for the better. 

[Loop]

7 hours ago, Cupcake said:

I like your comments. You are very empathetic and understandimg 

😌🙏

 

Years of pain is a great teacher,
No-one ever did suffer really.

 

[Loop]

5 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I notice that when something or someone gets a reputation for being criticized and it's public (like on the Internet) other people jump on the bandwagon and pile on it taking incredibly small things and inflating them to seem really bad.  I guess the same holds for the reverse when something gets a reputation for being praised the logic works the other way: People give extra benefit of the doubt and want to take incredibly bad things and make them seem not so bad or even good.  It's kind of a scapegoating and reverse scapegoating trigger and then a piling on.  I guess the thing to do is to avoid a bad reputation in the first place because it becomes like a negative vortex where people get off scapegoating you and doing it collectively because they know it's safe to do it.  You make yourself into a safe, inviting target for those who want to lash out to get a laugh and also to get a little hit of feeling superior or better than you.  It's good to have people overlook your flaws so long as you don't become complacent because that's an artificial bubble that can burst causing a lot of different problems or even just mediocrity.  Suffering pain is what gives you the motivation to change yourself or something for the better. 

 

I stopped really caring about my reputation when I realized how much pain my family was in & how trying to maintain a reputation stopped me from truly loving them, and bringing the healing. You’ll never really have a reputation, making amends is a things, healing is a thing, what is referred to as reputation isn’t really so solid, & is truly only found in thought. Trying to maintain a reputation was a big source of suffering for me. Someone who is bullying will sometimes take advantage of this & insult/ ridicule someone else on their reputation, ignoring their actual perspectives, when you aren’t attached to any perspective you grow faster & these kinds of people won’t affect you. 
 

The ‘thing to do’ in a sense is to not see good or bad, essentially that is what hinders the flow/ growth of perspective. See the good in the bad & bad in the good, type of thing.

 

Then eventually it is seen there is no bad or good, there is just massive waves of trauma from us traumatizing ourselves and passing it down generation to generation, bullying each other, repressing healing, shaming ourselves. When we blame anyone for this, it perpetuates it, in a sense Love is blind to it & just intuitively flows towards Healing. 

There is pain, but no sufferer, the pain can then start to be transmuted, this is energy work & healing. 
 

[Phil]

If you’re going to participate in exorcisms, expect to bear the devil. 

 

‘Praise & blame are all the same’. 

[Loop]

@Phil

 

The only place where healing is found,

If you are going to participate in exorcisms,

Remember the devil is an angel,

Pride comes before the fall, 

Awoken Love will not stall, 

Every twinkle in every eye,

Every single sigh & cry,

Before the laughter of no time,

Find more in less then a rhyme.

 

[Mandy]

8 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I notice that when something or someone gets a reputation for being criticized and it's public (like on the Internet) other people jump on the bandwagon and pile on it taking incredibly small things and inflating them to seem really bad.  I guess the same holds for the reverse when something gets a reputation for being praised the logic works the other way: 

 

What you give focus to gains momentum. What we collectively give focus to especially gains momentum. 

 

[Joseph Maynor]

7 hours ago, Loop said:

 

I stopped really caring about my reputation when I realized how much pain my family was in & how trying to maintain a reputation stopped me from truly loving them, and bringing the healing. You’ll never really have a reputation, making amends is a things, healing is a thing, what is referred to as reputation isn’t really so solid, & is truly only found in thought. Trying to maintain a reputation was a big source of suffering for me. Someone who is bullying will sometimes take advantage of this & insult/ ridicule someone else on their reputation, ignoring their actual perspectives, when you aren’t attached to any perspective you grow faster & these kinds of people won’t affect you. 
 

The ‘thing to do’ in a sense is to not see good or bad, essentially that is what hinders the flow/ growth of perspective. See the good in the bad & bad in the good, type of thing.

 

Then eventually it is seen there is no bad or good, there is just massive waves of trauma from us traumatizing ourselves and passing it down generation to generation, bullying each other, repressing healing, shaming ourselves. When we blame anyone for this, it perpetuates it, in a sense Love is blind to it & just intuitively flows towards Healing. 

There is pain, but no sufferer, the pain can then start to be transmuted, this is energy work & healing. 
 

I personally take issue with the idea that there's no morality (from my perspective only).  Ditto for the idea that all morality is relative and therefore unreal.  To me that's a reduction of the relative to the Absolute.  What I try to teach (or note) and to embody myself is a "working with" between the relative and the Absolute.  So you're never gonna hear me say morality doesn't exist.  I did at some point earlier on my path (like 5 years ago or something), but I realized that's a partial awakening quite a bit of time ago now.  If others want to believe that morality doesn't exist or is some kind of illusion, I don't take issue with that.  I just regret that I was caught in that spider web of thinking for a long time and I had to finally call BS on it for myself.  I hold that an individual's spirituality is their own choice and if it serves them then that's enough.  But I do find it useful to explain how I think resulting from my own encounter with spirituality without pushing my spirituality onto others -- because it's my spirituality, it organically came out of me walking my path. 

Ditto for the idea that one should not identify with or take possession of the mind.  That's  a useful tool sometimes, but to say that should always be the case is not quite right from my perspective.  Just observing ain't gonna cut it in life.  That doesn't lead to wellbeing from my perspective.  That's too much in the no-self direction.  There's a "working with" between self and no-self or the ego vs. no ego duality.  There's an interplay between the poles of that duality and a closing in upon the ends of the poles in a nondual or transdual direction as well.  Sometimes it's useful to think in terms of self and sometimes it's useful to think in terms of no-self.  It just depends.  We tend to think there's this rigid one right way to think and apply that all the time.  Well, all you do there is fool yourself because that's not how we live.  It's more nuanced than that.  The mind wants to find this simple answer and apply it rigidly across the board.  Anyway, I could go on but I won't.  Merry Christmas to everyone here!

Edited December 25, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Loop]

@Joseph Maynor

 

Morality, it really is a feeling in the heart for me, but I can understand if you wanna flesh out codes of conduct for yourself that totally ok and worth doing I feel. That is where it comes from, the heart, all of ours hearts, it is all real in my book, just if you get attached to a system you might miss something that that system cannot see, and You are constantly evolving. I’m really not trying to instill any new system in you, just trying to describe where the deepest healings come from in my experience. Building more flexible systems that can constantly grow is the most optimal, and the best way to do that is to have space in your life for Source, where you can empty and then return to that, where there is not attachment to systems. Then return and grow your passions. 

There is no unreal. It is all very real. There is always feelings shifting around in the body, the Heart finding its way through. ❤️ Merry Christmas brother! 🎁

 

[Loop]

“That's how chemicals work.

You will never be as conscious sober as you will on chemicals just like you will never be as strong as if you're taking steroids or as happy as if you're taking opium.” 

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/88290-i-always-awaken-on-lsd-but-drop-down-the-next-day-why/#comment-1249828
 

See this is addiction. One feels they won’t be as good without the chemical. One feels they won’t be as strong without something to strengthen them. We get attached to fast insights marketed to us. We really don’t like to find our own intrinsic strength. We run away from pain & healing, saying there is only Love & Light, we gaslight ourselves into saying every action is Love. We get attached to systems, we get attached to Non-Dual Truth, when only Awareness can shine it’s light. We run away from suffering, we run away from pain, when only Love can burn it through. 
 

This isn’t ment to belittle or be judgmental to anyone at all, this comes from the deepest compassion for suffering. I feel this post has something in it for everyone, for the lost child in all of us, to the Vast Emptiness where none of that is.
 

Don’t get wrapped up in one side of the coin.
We don’t need to empty everything into Nothing,

We don’t need to embrace more of your Truth,

There is only Transformation, nothing is truly stagnant,

It only seems when one side is more frozen then the other,

When thought is frozen can you find a feeling moving?

When feeling is frozen can you find a thought moving? 
Unthaw them both,

Through Feeling,

The content of thinking just gets wrapped in this or that side,

Open up wide,

Swallow the two into one,

Done as None,

Insights arise,

To Rest down on your bum.
 

There is Strength, it is the end of seeking. It is the end of addiction. It is the Heart.

I am the prince of darkness, & the Goddess of Light.  
I am Nothing.

Don’t run from trauma,

Don’t let that inner child be lost with the bath water,

You don’t need anything at all,

The Greatest Strength is this Rest.

No-fight, no-search,

No-debate, no-teaching,

No-settling, no-reaching,

No-addiction, no-seeking,

No-world to grab for, no-lens to find a way to This. 

🤍 May we all venture to discover and embrace, settling into the Endless Rest. 

The ego really doesn’t like Neither & Both,

But Awakening & Embodiment is the same Rope.

 

[Phil]

The relative & the absolute are conjecture of a ‘separate self’. 

The end of the conjecture is the end of the con & the end of the individual; the end of the ‘knower’ of ‘the relative & absolute’.

Which never actually began. 

[Loop]

@Phil

 

Yes, the devil is the Fallen Angel,

The separate self never actually began.

 

The dancing fool & the Drunken Master.

 

[Blessed2]

Past couple of days I've felt a wanting to "correct" what I think and feel is "incorrect"  on the Actualized forum.

 

Kind of like this wanting to debate and win debates, explain others how they're wrong and how I'm right etc.

 

It just feels so frustrating and annoying when you see something that is for you obvious ignorance, manipulation, ego etc but others don't see it the same way.

 

I know it's just my own BS playing out, but this is one of those things that can be really hard to stop.

 

You know when you have a debate, and you feel like you just gotta attack and attack, you can't let it go? You're trying to hold up a self-image and pride.

 

Maybe deep down it's just doubt. Wanting others to agree with you to feel certain.

[Phil]

The individual can not see the individual, because that is the end of the individual. 

[Loop]

19 minutes ago, Phil said:

The individual can not see the individual, because that is the end of the individual. 

 

There never was or will be an end to anything, 

There is only Transformation, or Impermanence,

Emptying the sufferer brings up the pain to be transformed,

Emptying the pain brings up the sufferer to be transformed,

They are inexplicably interlinked, nothing ever actually disappears or appears. 
 

Non-Duality allows the sufferer to ‘hide in plain sight’ as resting as Awareness never prompts anything up, it just allows. Identity then isn’t dismantled, just shifted to identifying as One or None. Being the World rather than the separate self that was believed to be transcended. 
 

Transcending never actually happens, just Transformation.  
“Transcend & Include”