How to become a leader

[fopylo]

Throughout my life, more like from end of middle school through all high school, through the 6 month pre-military camp, and until now I've sought my identity and found myself to be more of the funny/silly guy of the group. Not stupid per se, but have funny outcomes and things I say and ways I behave that make others laugh. This brought me quite some attention, and the feeling that I have found my place in the group. I've kept being the clown, the funny one, because this always felt like my place in the group, or so I've thought.

 

Every once in a while the question comes up "am I meant to be a leader?" and "can I become a leader?", and I usually just ignore it, compromising for my comfy place in the group, although I can tell you that being the clown of the group isn't always fun.

Recently this question has came up more - "Can I be a leader?" - the question itself becoming more clear.

Can I really?

 

I've never really been a charismatic person, I don't know how to lead well, and my social skills in group conversations suck (I don't know how to talk and that people will listen to me and to gain respect)...

This change to become a leader is a big shift in identity, and can be a bit scary to suddenly be more of a responsible, reliable, charming group member.

And as I'm getting closer to my recruiting to the military, this question becomes more dominant, as well as those thoughts above.

 

Like I said in some earlier post, I have some desire to become an officer, just like my dad was, but not only because my dad was. Also because of the higher respect you get, the responsibility you have, and the influence you can give.

Perhaps I do have some hidden leadership skill, because otherwise I probably wouldn't be ruminating about it that much.

To be honest, most of the times when meeting one on one with a friend, or even 3 friends, I usually like to be the one in charge, sort of the responsible one. It just feels better. (Just like in sexual relationships you have the one who is more dominant and the one who is more submissive, the one who likes taking the role of a hunter and the one who prefers being the prey - these result in sexual tension and connection) - Likewise, I like hanging out with people with whom I feel more dominant and in charge of the situation, but sometimes I prefer variety.

 

The thought of becoming more of a leader is a thought that actually feels more true, relieving, than the thought of always being the clown of the group. However the thoughts 'always being the leader' and 'always being the clown' don't feel good, and being both doesn't seem that easy. Perhaps the goal is becoming simply me, living always in the identity that feels most natural for me in the moment. But still, I face the problem of having a hard time talking in social environments. Whether I'm relieved in the clown or in the leader role, I still need respect.

 

I was having a hard time getting attention from the people I was trying to talk to in a group, and I couldn't finish sentences without the attention quickly moving to someone else. This sucked.

 

So, without going into concepts of emotions and what I'm focused on (Because yeah, I know I'm focused on how much I'm not a leader and feeling those emotions of Jealousy and Rage, and focusing on a more relieving thought is asking the question of how do I become a better leader, and feel anticipation and more calm. And I'd like to hear the suggestions)

[Lotus]

7 hours ago, fopylo said:

The thought of becoming more of a leader is a thought that actually feels more true, relieving, than the thought of always being the clown of the group.

Cuz you are the authority.

Being the clown feels off because you're not the clown, you're probably just funny and identify as the clown, and connect the word clown with a negative meaning.

 

7 hours ago, fopylo said:

Whether I'm relieved in the clown or in the leader role, I still need respect.

Really? Would a leader be a leader if he needed respect?

[fopylo]

@Lotus

15 hours ago, Lotus said:

Cuz you are the authority.

?

 

15 hours ago, Lotus said:

Being the clown feels off because you're not the clown, you're probably just funny and identify as the clown, and connect the word clown with a negative meaning.

Sometimes I can lose myself in the jokes and try to be overly funny/silly than what is natural for me in the moment. That is when I feel I need to affirm my place in the group if I am starting to feel a little 'out', or just to get the attention I'm seeking.

Someone like that doesn't get much respect. It resembles a people pleaser/ nice guy. There are people who are funny but aren't a nice guys and people pleasers. I want to be like them, but it scares me a bit.

I feel like if I were to be both a very funny guy and also a charismatic leader, I would be very powerful. I have this fear of success, believing (from experience) that things always come easily for me (talent wise, quick learning) and that I'll be seen as trying to be superior and be shunned for it.

15 hours ago, Lotus said:

Would a leader be a leader if he needed respect?

No, but he gets respect. Basically I want to know how to become a leader and if there are any books or sources that helped you, or if you can just give me advice.

[Lotus]

7 hours ago, fopylo said:

?

 

On 5/5/2022 at 1:10 AM, fopylo said:

The thought of becoming more of a leader is a thought that actually feels more true

It feels more true because it gives more credit to the creator that you are. You are your own authority.

 

7 hours ago, fopylo said:

Sometimes I can lose myself in the jokes and try to be overly funny/silly than what is natural for me in the moment. That is when I feel I need to affirm my place in the group if I am starting to feel a little 'out', or just to get the attention I'm seeking.

Someone like that doesn't get much respect. It resembles a people pleaser/ nice guy. There are people who are funny but aren't a nice guys and people pleasers. I want to be like them, but it scares me a bit.

I feel like if I were to be both a very funny guy and also a charismatic leader, I would be very powerful. I have this fear of success, believing (from experience) that things always come easily for me (talent wise, quick learning) and that I'll be seen as trying to be superior and be shunned for it.

Classic psychotherapy 101: I'd question every thought which poses conditions upon yourself. Terms like "if/then, need, but, would, try" are signals to look out for. It can be a bit annoying to see how much of it is belief-based, but the bigger part of what is hindering is really beliefs.

 

You yourself think that "someone like that doesn't get much respect" - what the people around you think doesn't matter. What's important to recognize is that you are projecting your own belief onto others, while it's really your own belief. If you think "someone like that doesn't get much respect", you project your belief onto others - as if the people around you are believing "someone like that doesn't get much respect". But you don't know that

Check out Josh Kesselmann. Dude's a total goofball. He leads his company extraordinarily well, and I can imagine a lot of people thinking, "someone like that doesn't get much respect". So what. He doesn't believe that, and see there, he does great.

 

"Being natural", on the other hand, makes life simple and sincere. What feels better, being natural or trying to be something?

 

8 hours ago, fopylo said:

No, but he gets respect. Basically I want to know how to become a leader and if there are any books or sources that helped you, or if you can just give me advice.

You become a leader when people are supporting your vision. Respect is a natural byproduct of that, but certainly not a necessary condition to start with your vision. You might wanna question who you are leading, when you're a leader. Yourself? Others? Both? You might even wanna be questioning if there's a leader at all, but that's a different topic. 

 

Speaking more practically, business literature (from my uni) differs between many forms of leaders. It'd be way too much to go into depth, but there's one pretty broad differentiation: the patriarchal leader vs. the "modern" leader.

The patriarchal leader imposes respect externally, like a conservative father would, through penalties and giving loans. This form of leadership is slowly becoming outdated.

The modern leader does not need to impose respect externally. The people working for him might resonate with his vision or with the working environment he offers. He doesn't need to give out penalties because his workers want to work for him. 

[Phil]

Just thoughts which arise.

 

A leader doesn’t crave or try to attain or get attention. A leader is attentive. Leading is not about the leader. 

A leader doesn’t help others to become leaders, but to realize the truth, that they already are.

A leader helps others to ‘get out of their own way’, in the recognition of allowing the Truth. 

A leader points out that a leader is not a change in identity, but is what is when the belief in identity is dispelled. Thus a leader is without suffering, and is only believed by others to be, a leader. 

A leader does not crave respect, responsibility and influence. A leader gives these & helps others to as well. 

A leader doesn’t ruminate because a leader doesn’t believe a leader or leadership is a skill. You attract what you are, not what you think you are or think you’re becoming or could become.  A leader doesn’t dispel, but helps you to realize how to dispel disillusionment. 

A leader is not self referentially in charge, a leader empowers. 

A leader is not, when the believing of becoming a leader is. 

A leader does not objectify and categorize people as hunter & prey, but recognizes self. 

A leader sees potential, potentiality, not limitation, separation, and identity. 

A leader does not believe in need, and therein, in separation and fear. 

A leader does not believe in goals, identity, responsibility, and recognition… but sees conscious creation only and ever now, selflessness, response ability now, without interest in taking, receiving, or getting credit for any past or doing.

A leader does not crave attention, and therein does not ‘Lord over’ the facade of leadership. 

A leader is guided by emotions, and does not conceptualize this actual Leadership away. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BlendingInfinite]

17 hours ago, Phil said:

Just thoughts which arise.

 

A leader doesn’t crave or try to attain or get attention. A leader is attentive. Leading is not about the leader. 

A leader doesn’t help others to become leaders, but to realize the truth, that they already are.

A leader helps others to ‘get out of their own way’, in the recognition of allowing the Truth. 

A leader points out that a leader is not a change in identity, but is what is when the belief in identity is dispelled. Thus a leader is without suffering, and is only believed by others to be, a leader. 

A leader does not crave respect, responsibility and influence. A leader gives these & helpers others to as well. 

A leader doesn’t ruminate because a leader doesn’t believe a leader or leadership is a skill. You attract what you are, not what you think you are or think you’re becoming or could become.  A leader doesn’t dispel, but helps you to realize how to dispel disillusionment. 

A leader is not self referentially in charge, a leader empowers. 

A leader is not, when the believing of becoming a leader is. 

A leader does not objectify and categorize people as hunter & prey, but recognizes self. 

A leader sees potential, potentiality, not limitation, separation, and identity. 

A leader does not believe in need, and therein, in separation and fear. 

A leader does not believe in goals, identity, responsibility, and recognition… but sees conscious creation only and ever now, selflessness, response ability now, without interest in taking, receiving, or getting credit for any past or doing.

A leader does not crave attention, and therein does not ‘Lord over’ the facade of leadership. 

A leader is guided by emotions, and does not conceptualize this actual Leadership away. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree, leadership doesn’t exist.

 

If so, someone would be in the foreground, because you cannnot lead from behind.

If someone would be in the foreground, this implies people are not parallel. 

[Mandy]

Desire for leadership is often about permission. People who feel conflicted or lacking look for leaders to take away their own self doubt, thus the need for permission. But unless that's done from a place of pure inspiration you might be lead or lead others into things that go against your/thier greater guidance. Then, conveniently when enough is enough, you have someone to blame or you are the blamed. It's about tuning into your true guidance which doesn't come from any specific human, and letting go of thoughts of being unworthy of love in any way. If we all would be leaders, we all would simply be inspired and inspiring in our own unique way. 

[fopylo]

@Phil I like what you wrote, hearing that from a leader like yourself. Just some things came to mind while reading it:

You say a few times that once you release the 'becoming a leader' and don't try to become a leader, then you'll see that the truth is that you're already the leader, but it just doesn't seem right/to make sense for me. Do you say we are all natural born leaders? This simply isn't the case in our society. And if everyone were to be leaders then a leader won't mean anything.

But I totally agree with a leader being someone that empowers other people rather than to 'Lord over' them, and to light the potential in people. But how does he not believe in goals, identity, responsibility and recognition? - Almost every leader has goals, is responsible (to some extent), recognizable, and believes himself to be the 'leader' that will help and guide.

On 5/6/2022 at 3:02 PM, Phil said:

A leader is guided by emotions, and does not conceptualize this actual Leadership away. 

I didn't understand this and I want to understand what you said.

 

And by the way, being a leader seems very awesome. I strive to someday become an empowering leader (like in the personality test there are 4 personalities that emphasize the leadership trait, and the one I resonate most with is the ENFJ - the personality you got. As opposed to the other leaders, the Protagonist is the warmest and focuses on empathy and empowerment).

But, as you know, I'm not so far from the start of my military service, and as you might guess it's built with structures of power, hierarchical, this game you might call it. Having dispelled illusions won't suggest you to become a commander, or even a squad leader or officer. You must possess and show traits of leadership, managing people, confidence, decision making, you know..

Thing is, that maybe I'm just not suited for it, which is a little disappointing considering my father to be an officer and fine with managing people. I feel insecure, and sometimes rage that often in the environment with more grown ups he doesn't really listen to me when I try to suggest an idea/solution, quite ignoring me, dismissing what I have to say and trying to figure it out with the other adults as if I'm not one already. My voice gets softer, I get anxious, not making much eye contact, feel uncomfortable and want to leave

[Phil]

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

@Phil I like what you wrote, hearing that from a leader like yourself. Just some things came to mind while reading it:

I’m not the / a leader. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

You say a few times that once you release the 'becoming a leader' and don't try to become a leader, then you'll see that the truth is that you're already the leader, but it just doesn't seem right/to make sense for me.

If I said that, I misspoke, sorry. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

 

Do you say we are all natural born leaders?

Birth apparently happens, but you weren’t born. Birth is ‘in the movie’, you are the unborn screen. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

This simply isn't the case in our society. And if everyone were to be leaders then a leader won't mean anything.

“A leader” doesn’t mean anything.  There is thought attachment, and cessation. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

But I totally agree with a leader being someone that empowers other people rather than to 'Lord over' them, and to light the potential in people.

Not quite what I said (which you believe you’re agreeing with). 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

But how does he not believe in goals, identity, responsibility and recognition?

Write “unicorn”.

No need for belief. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

- Almost every leader has goals, is responsible (to some extent), recognizable, and believes himself to be the 'leader' that will help and guide.

I didn't understand this and I want to understand what you said.

You are knowing only what you are believing, yet because you are believing, you are not knowing. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

 

And by the way, being a leader seems very awesome. I strive to someday become an empowering leader (like in the personality test there are 4 personalities that emphasize the leadership trait, and the one I resonate most with is the ENFJ - the personality you got. As opposed to the other leaders, the Protagonist is the warmest and focuses on empathy and empowerment).

But, as you know, I'm not so far from the start of my military service, and as you might guess it's built with structures of power, hierarchical, this game you might call it. Having dispelled illusions won't suggest you to become a commander, or even a squad leader or officer. You must possess and show traits of leadership, managing people, confidence, decision making, you know..

Dispel disillusionment (not illusion). 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

Thing is, that maybe I'm just not suited for it, which is a little disappointing considering my father to be an officer and fine with managing people. I feel insecure, and sometimes rage that often in the environment with more grown ups he doesn't really listen to me when I try to suggest an idea/solution, quite ignoring me, dismissing what I have to say and trying to figure it out with the other adults as if I'm not one already. My voice gets softer, I get anxious, not making much eye contact, feel uncomfortable and want to leave

I suggest it’s none of those things. I suggest all that’s transpiring is you’re not hearing, because your attention is on thinking when reading or listening to someone talk. Notice the self referential smokescreen, “I’m not…”. Notice the guidance of disappointment in regard to that thought… is skipped over. (Deflection). Notice the projection, onto your father, as he’s not hearing you, and of your belief you know what he thinks (that you’re not an adult) instead of hearing what he is saying.  Notice the conceptualization after ignoring the guidance, ‘anxious’, and then the aversion (wanting to leave). These comments can be taken personally, or as the very insight as to how the leader is being ignored. Hoping for the latter. 🤞 

[Phil]

@fopylo

A super simple practical approach… let self referential thoughts (thoughts about yourself) go, and look at the specific list of responsibilities for the next higher position / title. 

[MazE]

@fopylo are you sure you want to do this job? If you are pressured in any way to follow this path then just don't. In case you do want it then just pinpoint what skills are needed to be the best and work on them. The same is true for every job.

I may be way off but i hope that you don't try to please your father.

Look as i see it you look for acceptance from others. You don't need it. Just do you and let others do or say what they want.

Being a clown earns you a special reward. Everyone likes you. If it's your personality to be funny that's great. My best friend was a clown but this is just his character to be silly all the time. To call it being a clown thought means that you wear a mask to keep people giving you attention and liking you. Do you actually like the people that you try to make like you? 

You wanting to become a leader is just trying to get love in another form. You want respect. You want to just play another role.

I mean it's normal. 99.99% of people play roles all the time. What is normal is also insane. 

Life is simpler when you have no such need.

You creating what you want to create, having a strong vision, working at it and not caring about permission, validation and a need to control is what creates a leader. 

A leader is someone that inspires others and make them to willingly follow without this being his intention in the first place. 

[Blessed2]

@fopylo If you want to take a look at what I'd say is probably one of the best examples of true leadership in this world, check out Neem Karoli Baba. Read stories of him.

 

"When the flower blooms, bees come"

 

"You love me because I love you."

 

"Serve the poor and remember God. You become one with Christ."

 

"You can leave me. I won't leave you. Once I catch hold of you, I don't let go."

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Blessed2

[Phil]

@fopylo

Another afterthought… I wonder if you are putting undo, unfair pressure on yourself so to speak, trying to meet or realize impossible expectations, in thinking you’re supposed to be other than you are at present. If I’m understanding, you’re considering upward mobility and bettering your situation, by making the most out of your time and the potential opportunity in regard to the service / military, which is smart & all good imo. Makes for a deeper, more fulfilling, more useful and productive enriching growth oriented experience that will only beget or bring about more growth oriented opportunities. 

 

But then consideration of leadership in that field, without yet having much or any experience in that field… combined with identifying via personality tests, and then trying to deduce wether you’re a leader or not (now)… without having experience in the field of consideration, is kind of an impossible expectation as to knowing now what can only be known with experience. Making assumptions about who you are and or what your potential is by missing this distinction would be in error (imo) and would likely create unnecessary stress and suffering. 

 

I find it ideal and beneficial to contemplate what you really want alongside where you’re headed and what opportunities there are therein. But I would be most careful mixing in identity and personalities as fixed things. Years ago I would have told you science is the way, not spirituality, and that the vast majority of the world is nuts for not listening to Richard Dawkins, and had I taken a personality test then it would have been very, very different. I presume saying this has ‘broken record’ potential, but the difference between then and now is / ‘was’ meditation, the emotional scale, and the dreamboard. And maybe a trip or two. 

 

Also, just for clarification, in regard to identity and leadership… and I can only imagine the pickle or possible dilemma you face if you see this similarly… I could never in good conscious consider anyone who harms another, or plays any role in the harming of another, any kind of leader in any kind of leadership role. I may be in the a vast vast minority here. Hopefully that doesn’t create more tension with the subject, but I feel I should be completely transparent & fourth right in where I’m coming from. Imo the world by & large has leadership & identify completely backwards, and therein, all relationships, from within a household to nationally speaking. Imo, that there is a leader with two feet on this earth is already a faux pas. 

 

[MazE]

@Phil humans are extremely similar to monkeys. Our natural tendency is to have a feel of where we stand if we compare ourselves with others. We know who is alpha in a group. Is that a leader? Not really, usually someone that inspires fear. 

Then there is respect and someone that inspires us by just doing himself. 

Yes what you said is true. Not the popular opinion but an opinion that i agree with. If you harm another then you are not a leader but according to who?

There are people that inspire soldiers to go and die a meaningless war. Ask the soldiers before they go to battle. They will agree that the person convincing them to go die is a leader. In that case the leader is someone that harms people by default. Or minimizes his extended's ego suffering.

Ultimately there is no leader because there is not an us. But unless we realize that we are not humans we behave exactly like smart monkeys. 

[Phil]

@MazE

Yeah. Monkey mind is like the matrix. There are some people I see as leaders though. 

[MazE]

I concluded so far that a leader is someone that minimizes suffering.

[fopylo]

@Phil

On 5/12/2022 at 3:28 AM, Phil said:

“A leader” doesn’t mean anything.  There is thought attachment, and cessation. 

On 5/12/2022 at 3:28 AM, Phil said:

Write “unicorn”.

No need for belief. 

It seems like you're saying that a 'leader' (thought identity) can be broken into simply a person that has traits of 'responsibility', 'recognizable', 'empowering' (also thoughts), and these thoughts can be even further broken down more and more until you get the pure raw state of someone just being true to himself and does what feels right (good) to him. Is that what you're saying?

On 5/12/2022 at 3:28 AM, Phil said:

Dispel disillusionment (not illusion). 

What is the difference?

 

On 5/12/2022 at 3:28 AM, Phil said:

I suggest it’s none of those things. I suggest all that’s transpiring is you’re not hearing, because your attention is on thinking when reading or listening to someone talk.

What do you mean?

 

On 5/12/2022 at 3:28 AM, Phil said:

Notice the guidance of disappointment in regard to that thought… is skipped over.

On 5/12/2022 at 3:28 AM, Phil said:

Notice the conceptualization after ignoring the guidance, ‘anxious’, and then the aversion (wanting to leave).

 

How am I skipping over/ averting the emotions? How do you know that? And what would be the solution to it, to not skipping over and averting, in the exact moment of a situation of that kind ?

On 5/12/2022 at 7:13 PM, Phil said:

A super simple practical approach… let self referential thoughts (thoughts about yourself) go,

How can you let self referential thoughts go? You constantly experience thoughts arising and changing... Do you mean to let go of, say I read the responsibilities of the higher position, to focus on the responsibility purely rather than about the responsibility in relation to me, how far am I from this responsibility, whether I am capable/uncapable, yada yada...?

[fopylo]

@Phil

On 5/13/2022 at 11:06 PM, Phil said:

But then consideration of leadership in that field, without yet having much or any experience in that field… combined with identifying via personality tests, and then trying to deduce wether you’re a leader or not (now)… without having experience in the field of consideration, is kind of an impossible expectation as to knowing now what can only be known with experience. Making assumptions about who you are and or what your potential is by missing this distinction would be in error (imo) and would likely create unnecessary stress and suffering.

Ok so you say that until I start my service to let go of putting pressure on myself by trying to become a leader (someone whom I'm not) and just be myself in the service and then make assumptions?

 

Oh shit man. I think I made a mistake all along. Contemplating "leadership", I think what I meant more is to be more charismatic, since I think a leader is more about inspiring people and charisma is more about being heard and have strong confidence in the words you speak out of your mouth. I don't know if this really makes such a big difference but I just wanted to clarify.

[fopylo]

On 5/13/2022 at 4:47 AM, MazE said:

Being a clown earns you a special reward. Everyone likes you. If it's your personality to be funny that's great. My best friend was a clown but this is just his character to be silly all the time. To call it being a clown thought means that you wear a mask to keep people giving you attention and liking you. Do you actually like the people that you try to make like you? 

@MazE

You don't know though how your friend feels when he's not around you and if he's trying to make people like him by acting like a clown.

But for your question, hmm... hard question. You know, actually not really.. paradoxical haha. For my closer friends, I care less for being liked and trying to be funny to get their attention (but I still have a little bit of care), and with people I'm not close to but know, I seem to care way more. Thanks for lighting this up for me! (more like getting me to think about it)

On 5/13/2022 at 4:47 AM, MazE said:

You wanting to become a leader is just trying to get love in another form. You want respect. You want to just play another role.

I mean it's normal. 99.99% of people play roles all the time. What is normal is also insane. 

Damn bro you speaking facts. I did become a 'clown' because it gave me attention (love), and then I saw the downside of this role (not so much respect) and so now I want to be a 'leader' to gain respect from others (also love).

On 5/13/2022 at 4:47 AM, MazE said:

You creating what you want to create, having a strong vision, working at it and not caring about permission, validation and a need to control is what creates a leader. 

Having a strong vision is about playing some role/ identifying with some role to achieve this vision, no?

Working at it is putting pressure on yourself to become/achieve someone/something which you aren't/don't have currently, no?

 

Well then, I can tell you my vision is to be a person with traits and capable for managing a squad, help make decisions and be heard, be taken a little more seriously. If this is not a vision, then what is?

On 5/13/2022 at 4:47 AM, MazE said:

A leader is someone that inspires others and make them to willingly follow without this being his intention in the first place.

That would be perfect, but this is the military we're talking about. Not every decision is being followed 'willingly'. Some people are just better at making the right decision even if there is reluctance to it. They believe something like "I don’t care if you call me an insensitive b*****d, as long as I remain an efficient b*****d"

[fopylo]

On 5/14/2022 at 1:11 AM, MazE said:

They will agree that the person convincing them to go die is a leader. In that case the leader is someone that harms people by default.

Sometimes it is in the cost of more innocent deaths and greater disaster, but sometimes not. Not all decisions are perfect in aftermath, but you think on your feet, and you try taking the best measure of judgement for the situation. And a great leader will put himself in front and fight during battle as well.