How to become a leader

[Phil]

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

@Phil

It seems like you're saying that a 'leader' (thought identity) can be broken into simply a person that has traits of 'responsibility', 'recognizable', 'empowering' (also thoughts), and these thoughts can be even further broken down more and more until you get the pure raw state of someone just being true to himself and does what feels right (good) to him. Is that what you're saying?

I agree, but also personalities are experiential, not actual identity(s). The 16 personalities is a nice pointing, great correlations from a lot of data. But these correlations are based on change, and are change and all there is to experience is change, and anyone can change by bringing the mind to rest / inspecting & relinquishing beliefs, and this change is the desirable change. Great ah ha’s to be experienced in taking the quiz, but If someone ‘has or has not’ the ‘proper’ traits, someone is actually believing they do or don’t, can or can’t, will or won’t. It’s the same as believing the thought “the moon” is actually perception, or, that there really is this separate thing, “the moon”. There’s thought attachment and cessation, but no actual moon. Same for ‘separate selves’ (with traits, personalities, etc). Maybe the simplest way to say it is if personality is amply inspected, what’s found is there is no such thing. 

 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

What is the difference?

The ‘separate self’ is an illusion of thought attachment which is dispelled with meditation and inspection of thoughts. Disillusionment is the process of dispelling / liberation, freeing from the illusion / thought attachment. A leader is a (is believed to be) ‘separate self’.

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

What do you mean?

(Just using percentages to communicate) It’s assumed 90% of attention is on what someone is saying or what you’re reading and 10% is on the activity of thought, while 10% is actually on what someone is saying and 90% is on thought activity (what you think, so to speak). Daily meditation (twice a day is best) is the way to see this and change this resulting in the experience of much more focus, calmness and concentration in addition to new depths of hearing unobscured by the activity of thought. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

How am I skipping over/ averting the emotions? How do you know that? And what would be the solution to it, to not skipping over and averting, in the exact moment of a situation of that kind ?

 

Notice the ‘writing off’… “it’s anxiety”… “it’s because of him or her”, etc. Always consider it’s how the thought, belief, misunderstanding and or misidentification feels. The simplest approach is using the emotional scale instead of other words… expressing rather than employing conceptualizations & labels adopted from collective beliefs. Some spend entire lives never recognizing ‘ ‘reaching’ jealousy, for example, because they believe in “anxiety”, or something along the general lines of “it’s just how I am” / “it’s just how it is”. Most don’t inspect thoughts. Thus most are ‘asleep in the matrix’ having no clue what they are (from simply believing thoughts). 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

 

How can you let self referential thoughts go?

Inspect assumptions. Inspect each thought. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

You constantly experience thoughts arising and changing...

That’s an assumption and projection. It isn’t actually true as in accurate. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

Do you mean to let go of, say I read the responsibilities of the higher position, to focus on the responsibility purely rather than about the responsibility in relation to me, how far am I from this responsibility, whether I am capable/uncapable, yada yada...?

YES. 🙂

 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

@Phil

Ok so you say that until I start my service to let go of putting pressure on myself by trying to become a leader (someone whom I'm not) and just be myself in the service

Yes. Take the weight off. 

Inspect that thought (if desired). Where is this one you are putting pressure on? Are you the one applying pressure, or the one receiving pressure? Are there two of you? It seems so - in thoughts. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

and then make assumptions?

No. Once there is some direct experience, then there is direct experience, and no need for assumptions. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

 

Oh shit man. I think I made a mistake all along. Contemplating "leadership", I think what I meant more is to be more charismatic, since I think a leader is more about inspiring people and charisma is more about being heard and have strong confidence in the words you speak out of your mouth. I don't know if this really makes such a big difference but I just wanted to clarify.

You might like this article on hearing and being heard.

 

’Strong confidence’, as it relates to the service, today / right now, would be a facade. With experience, it would simply be naturally happening.  Charisma, in the separate selves belief sense, is a personality trait… while in the actual sense, it is the natural experience of a quilted mind and inspected thoughts. 

[fopylo]

@Phil

10 hours ago, Phil said:

The 16 personalities is a nice pointing, great correlations from a lot of data. But these correlations are based on change, and are change and all there is to experience is change, and anyone can change by bringing the mind to rest / inspecting & relinquishing beliefs, and this change is the desirable change. Great ah ha’s to be experienced in taking the quiz, but If someone ‘has or has not’ the ‘proper’ traits, someone is actually believing they do or don’t, can or can’t, will or won’t.

The website recommends you take the test once every 5 months because they understand people go through experiments that shape their personality differently. But what do you mean by "anyone can change by bringing the mind to rest and this change is the desirable change"? How do you change by bringing the mind to rest?

About my personality results - when I read it it just clicked so much and had those ah ha moments, but some good time later I am believing I might not have the proper trait for a leader though. The traits this personality has are great and I like them because they ring true.

10 hours ago, Phil said:

12 hours ago, fopylo said:

What is the difference?

The ‘separate self’ is an illusion of thought attachment which is dispelled with meditation and inspection of thoughts. Disillusionment is the process of dispelling / liberation, freeing from the illusion / thought attachment. A leader is a (is believed to be) ‘separate self’.

Yeah but you said to dispel disillusionment rather than to dispel illusion

 

10 hours ago, Phil said:

That’s an assumption and projection. It isn’t actually true as in accurate.

It seems like you're saying thoughts don't even really happen... I've actually received this question after contemplating the question "How can I know other people experience thoughts as well" and I just couldn't, and I was in a constant loop of seeing how this is all my thinking, so maybe it doesn't exist?

 

10 hours ago, Phil said:

No. Once there is some direct experience, then there is direct experience, and no need for assumptions.

Direct experience will guide me whether I will want a higher position?

[Phil]

46 minutes ago, fopylo said:

But what do you mean by "anyone can change by bringing the mind to rest and this change is the desirable change"? How do you change by bringing the mind to rest?

Meditation.

Allowing.

Receiving. 

46 minutes ago, fopylo said:

Yeah but you said to dispel disillusionment rather than to dispel illusion

Did “I”?
🙂 Dispel the dispeller(s). 

46 minutes ago, fopylo said:

It seems like you're saying thoughts don't even really happen... I've actually received this question after contemplating the question "How can I know other people experience thoughts as well" and I just couldn't, and I was in a constant loop of seeing how this is all my thinking, so maybe it doesn't exist?

👍🏻

That you are in a / the loop… is the loop. 

The end of the loop experience is the recognition you are awareness, aware of, and not ‘in’, thoughts.  (Meditate)

Is thinking really yours, or is there the thought; my thinking? (Meditate 🙂 )

Is existence ‘just a thought’?

Is thought an it, or is ‘it’ a thought?

What is non-existence, (if there even is non-existence).

46 minutes ago, fopylo said:

Direct experience will guide me whether I will want a higher position?

Will I be a leader of bike riding? Do I have the proper traits? Do I have the right personality? (Etc, etc, etc)

How about first getting on a bike?

[fopylo]

@Phil

On 5/15/2022 at 5:18 PM, Phil said:

Meditation.

You know man, meditation is something I've been struggling with for quite a while, trying to wrap my mind what is it about, how to approach it and what the focus is.

It seems for me (after contemplation) that it is one big mind game, and that all meditations are based on thought-based awareness meditation.

When you say focus on your breath, you are referring to a thought, right? (about the breath, breathing, breather)

When you say feel the feeling of your___, you mean bring up the thought of the body part/image of sensation and its 'location' and inspect whether it (the thought) feels aligning or with discord, no?

 

Man I'm not really meditating, like once every few days. I close my eyes and I'm bombarded with thoughts that feel forced and I recognize the discord, and then try to bring up more relieving thoughts, and that is the problem, that I'm trying too much - trying, trying to improve/ to fix/ to become better.

I guess you can say (like always) to inspect the one whom I'm referring to, and yes, thoughts about an individual with a sense of identity that I see to be me but doesn't feel so good. I think I'm 'stuck' because every time I think I got out of this loop, I just find myself to be tricked and back in the loop (yes, there is no such thing as in the loop, used it as a pointer).

 

But by the way, for the sake of the preceding question, I meant to ask more like what do you mean by 'change' as in 'anyone can change'?

On 5/15/2022 at 5:18 PM, Phil said:

Is thinking really yours, or is there the thought; my thinking? (Meditate 🙂 )

Is existence ‘just a thought’?

Is thought an it, or is ‘it’ a thought?

Perhaps everything we consider as reality is a thought? One gigantic thought thinking? Since every thing I look at comes with some sort of assessment, confirmation, relation, existence/non-existence, I can see how our reality is just one huge mind, and within the mind you can divide it into layers (thoughts and physical reality), and that's probably why I hear statements such as "reality collapsing", "deconstructing science", "collapsing materialism" - because they are all thought-based and the 'collapsing' is the recognition of it being thoughts and not as reality itself?

[Phil]

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

@Phil

You know man, meditation is something I've been struggling with for quite a while, trying to wrap my mind what is it about, how to approach it and what the focus is.

It seems for me (after contemplation) that it is one big mind game, and that all meditations are based on thought-based awareness meditation.

When you say focus on your breath, you are referring to a thought, right? (about the breath, breathing, breather)

No. That’s what’s missed. I’m saying focus on the feeling of breathing in the stomach. 

I’m not saying focus on thoughts about it. 

 

This is exemplary of the why of meditation, and of the nature of suffering and of liberation. Be a bit forgiving, as I’m going to say this as directly & boldly & clearly as possible for the sake of communication. It implies a you & a me as two separate selves, but momentarily ignore that implication if you will please…. 

 

You believe there are separate things, and that you are a separate thing, which was born and will die. Beliving this, you don’t know it’s completely false. 

I am well aware there are not separate things, that I am God, and was never born, and will never die. 

 

The difference in the experiencing of life between these is SO GREAT that it is UNCOMMUNICATABLE. 

So here we are, doing what we can, ‘pointing’. 

The difference is thought attachment / suffering - and - liberation / not suffering. 

 

Aside from that, google “the many benefits of meditation”, and take the time to read it, to understand, and then implement it. Don’t take my word for it. And don’t take the words of thousands of people who shared this (which you’ll find when you google it). Only direct experience will do. 

 

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

When you say feel the feeling of your___, you mean bring up the thought of the body part/image of sensation and its 'location' and inspect whether it (the thought) feels aligning or with discord, no?

No. These are great questions btw. Excellent inspecting. 

No - I mean feel. Not think about feeling. 

 

Have you ever stubbed your toe? Touched a hot stove? Got a paper cut?

Do you find that to be the same as the thought of stubbing your toe, touching a hot stove, or getting a paper cut?

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

 

Man I'm not really meditating, like once every few days. I close my eyes and I'm bombarded with thoughts that feel forced and I recognize the discord, and then try to bring up more relieving thoughts, and that is the problem, that I'm trying too much - trying, trying to improve/ to fix/ to become better.

For real man, sit back and enjoy that breakthrough. Imo that’s a great realization. No ‘beating up on yourself’. You’re on the path, you’re investigating, that’s awesome. No expectations you should be ahead, or further than you are! 

It is normal, common, ok, to get on the cushion, and then miss days. 

 

Edit: Also - never ‘force’ or ‘combat’ when it comes to meditation & thoughts. It’s ok to stop. That’s perfectly fine. If you want to, and I am suggesting you do, write about what came up. Just literally open a blank page / file, and just allow the typing. Type away. Don’t ‘think’ and make it nice, readable for someone else, comprehensive etc. Throw all that out the window. Just start typing whatever thoughts are coming up. Just type em. Do that, or don’t - but don’t think about it, and mistake the thinking about it, for the actual experience of doing it. 

 

Take the time… like ten minutes really… to read The Ten Ox Herder Pics. This is a version, an interpretation.

Also google and read the original. Between reading the two, some things will click. Hopefully you’ll see you’re on the path, you’re experiencing around the second and third pics. Do not assume. If the thought arises “I don’t need to read that I already know” let that thought go, breathe, relax, and read it. 🙂 

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

I guess you can say (like always) to inspect the one whom I'm referring to, and yes, thoughts about an individual with a sense of identity that I see to be me but doesn't feel so good. I think I'm 'stuck' because every time I think I got out of this loop, I just find myself to be tricked and back in the loop (yes, there is no such thing as in the loop, used it as a pointer).

⬆️ That is a loop(s). The belief you are stuck, is a thought about a separate self. A loop. That belief ‘I just find myself to be’, is a thought about a separate self. A loop. 

See how sneaky thought is!? 

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

 

But by the way, for the sake of the preceding question, I meant to ask more like what do you mean by 'change' as in 'anyone can change'?

Any one can awaken, because any one can feel discord, inspect & dispell / let go of - beliefs. That is the change that is desired. That orientation. Seems like the result of the change is desired, or the having made the change already… but it’s just the orientation that’s desired. The alignment. The feeling of. 

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

Perhaps everything we consider as reality is a thought? One gigantic thought thinking? Since every thing I look at comes with some sort of assessment, confirmation, relation, existence/non-existence, I can see how our reality is just one huge mind, and within the mind you can divide it into layers (thoughts and physical reality), and that's probably why I hear statements such as "reality collapsing", "deconstructing science", "collapsing materialism" - because they are all thought-based and the 'collapsing' is the recognition of it being thoughts and not as reality itself?

Overall, yes. That “since every thing I look at” - no. 

Again notice how ‘sneaky thought is’. That there is a looker & a looked at, is an assumption. 

 

 

Above all - love. 

When it is noticed attention has drifted to thoughts - don’t ‘beat up on yourself’. Don’t use that as a reason to feel bad! 

Be gentle and loving. 

Simply notice, and then return attention to feeling breathing in the stomach. 

Relax. 

ACTUALLY ENJOY THE PRACTICE! 😂❤️

 

This is really not meant as personal as it might sound, but seriously, it needs to be said… I am beginning to doubt you’ve actually watched the Matrix Trilogy. It’s like talking to Thomas Anderson pre-rabbit. Phil Conners, day one.  

 

Lighten up. You’re Cinderella basically. Don’t take offense, feel the fire &  understand why they called her Cinderella. Look around. That’s you bro. Open your mind to the fact that fairies, angels, people, etc, actually do ‘show up’. Be the Cinderella story, the classic Phoenix. It’s definitely within you, and actually experientially magical. 

[fopylo]

@Phil

35 minutes ago, Phil said:

No. That’s what’s missed. I’m saying focus on the feeling of breathing in the stomach. 

I’m not saying focus on thoughts about it.

Closing eyes, having in mind 'breath' - understand all form I give it is in thought, therefore there is no form of the actual breath I intend to focus on; blurry and unclear.

Naturally, thoughts arise and images of 'breath', 'breathing', 'breather' appear.

I understand that these are thoughts and then what I try to do is "focus on the feeling of breathing in the stomach" - and as you might see, this is a pandora box for many thoughts to arise, even if this is a pointer to the actual thing you're trying to refer to.

I then realize that the only way I confirm feeling the breath from the stomach, is thoughts (tingling, contrast, streching of the stomach, inhale/exhale, breathing/not breathing).

And when I realized that all of this is just thought, it gets overwhelming - trying to meditate 'properly' and figure out why it's a struggle, and it overwhelms me.

I get frustrated and it seems more like a hurdle than a pleasant activity.

I then don't enjoy the practice and take a break from it.

 

Here, you actually got me to straightforwardly and boldly explain how my meditation process goes. Thank you for bringing this out of me. I hope to be more honest and bold about my experience like now.

54 minutes ago, Phil said:

These are great questions btw. Excellent inspecting.

Thanks man, I really appreciate you telling me this. My contemplation and questioning have leveled up

 

57 minutes ago, Phil said:

Have you ever stubbed your toe? Touched a hot stove? Got a paper cut?

Do you find that to be the same as the thought of stubbing your toe, touching a hot stove, or getting a paper cut?

hmm... I think I get what you say, but it seems to me that certain thoughts will evoke the feeling more than others.

Again, bold and straightforward, I'll give an example:

I just gave myself a hurting long scratch on my arm. I felt the sensation, but felt it more when I was looking at my arm while doing it and at the scratch; but when I look back at the screen the sensation fades quite quick, or is just way less felt, and it gives room for other sensations to arise.

But with more subtle feelings, like the feeling of my arm - I'll be honest with you and stop kidding myself - No, I can't feel the sensation of my arm. It is too subtle to be noticed, especially when I'm not looking at it and focused on something else (like the screen). Natural sensations ebb and flow in random locations all across the body, and if I am to decide 'focus attention on the feeling of the left arm' (implying that I don't currently sense it naturally) then thoughts arise about its location, assumptions about the feeling and the idea of a 'left arm'.

1 hour ago, Phil said:

For real man, sit back and enjoy that breakthrough. Imo that’s a great realization. No ‘beating up on yourself’. You’re on the path, you’re investigating, that’s awesome. No expectations you should be ahead, or further than you are!

It was hard for me to read that, after the many times I've heard this sort of stuff after expressing my frustration with meditation and then having the same issues again.

 

1 hour ago, Phil said:

It’s ok to stop. That’s perfectly fine. If you want to, and I am suggesting you do, write about what came up. Just literally open a blank page / file, and just allow the typing.

It's actually relieving to hear that it's ok to stop, but question - won't stopping meditation for a while affect my 'growth' (recognizing my my true nature/ more liberated)?

I don't really want to tell myself to start expressing by writing. If I feel like, then I might, but I don't think I will. I do exercise, if this is considered, and play the piano here and there.

1 hour ago, Phil said:

If the thought arises “I don’t need to read that I already know” let that thought go, breathe, relax, and read it. 🙂

I get it! - to be more relaxed and relieved from the refreshment of being open to take a read.

I have read it like once or twice a while ago, but alright, I'll give it a read. Btw it really helps you telling me that I experience around the second and third pics, got me curious.

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

But by the way, for the sake of the preceding question, I meant to ask more like what do you mean by 'change' as in 'anyone can change'?

On 5/15/2022 at 6:10 AM, Phil said:

The 16 personalities is a nice pointing, great correlations from a lot of data. But these correlations are based on change, and are change and all there is to experience is change, and anyone can change by bringing the mind to rest

By 'anyone can change' do you mean change for the (subjective) better? 'Better' not as in specific roles like a 'leader', 'strategist', 'smart', 'funny', 'confident'.... but rather in the better feeling of liberation and the freedom to focus on the traits that ring true to you and that you naturally want to gravitate towards and that you are the authority to realize that you can feel this way if you choose to and it feels natural? Blah blah, sentence is messed up and I try to wrap my mind on it lol

 

1 hour ago, Phil said:

I am beginning to doubt you’ve actually watched the Matrix Trilogy

Watched it long ago lol. Perhaps I'll give it a rewatch

[Phil]

11 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Phil

Closing eyes, having in mind 'breath' - understand all form I give it is in thought, therefore there is no form of the actual breath I intend to focus on; blurry and unclear.

Naturally, thoughts arise and images of 'breath', 'breathing', 'breather' appear.

I understand that these are thoughts and then what I try to do is "focus on the feeling of breathing in the stomach" - and as you might see, this is a pandora box for many thoughts to arise, even if this is a pointer to the actual thing you're trying to refer to.

I then realize that the only way I confirm feeling the breath from the stomach, is thoughts (tingling, contrast, streching of the stomach, inhale/exhale, breathing/not breathing).

And when I realized that all of this is just thought, it gets overwhelming - trying to meditate 'properly' and figure out why it's a struggle, and it overwhelms me.

I get frustrated and it seems more like a hurdle than a pleasant activity.

I then don't enjoy the practice and take a break from it.

 

Here, you actually got me to straightforwardly and boldly explain how my meditation process goes. Thank you for bringing this out of me. I hope to be more honest and bold about my experience like now.

Thanks man, I really appreciate you telling me this. My contemplation and questioning have leveled up

Awesome, and great inspecting. 

11 minutes ago, fopylo said:

 

 

hmm... I think I get what you say, but it seems to me that certain thoughts will evoke the feeling more than others.

Again, bold and straightforward, I'll give an example:

I just gave myself a hurting long scratch on my arm. I felt the sensation, but felt it more when I was looking at my arm while doing it and at the scratch; but when I look back at the screen the sensation fades quite quick, or is just way less felt, and it gives room for other sensations to arise.

But with more subtle feelings, like the feeling of my arm - I'll be honest with you and stop kidding myself - No, I can't feel the sensation of my arm. It is too subtle to be noticed, especially when I'm not looking at it and focused on something else (like the screen). Natural sensations ebb and flow in random locations all across the body, and if I am to decide 'focus attention on the feeling of the left arm' (implying that I don't currently sense it naturally) then thoughts arise about its location, assumptions about the feeling and the idea of a 'left arm'.

It was hard for me to read that, after the many times I've heard this sort of stuff after expressing my frustration with meditation and then having the same issues again.

Attention on feeling breathing from the stomach is the other than attention on thoughts. 

 

11 minutes ago, fopylo said:

It's actually relieving to hear that it's ok to stop, but question - won't stopping meditation for a while affect my 'growth' (recognizing my my true nature/ more liberated)?

If meditation is overwhelming, do some writing.  Just write / type whatever thoughts are arising freely. 

11 minutes ago, fopylo said:

I don't really want to tell myself to start expressing by writing. If I feel like, then I might, but I don't think I will. I do exercise, if this is considered, and play the piano here and there.

You could tell me, with a message, email, etc. But to tell yourself you’d first have to find yourself. If you find yourself there’ll be no more questions. 

11 minutes ago, fopylo said:

I get it! - to be more relaxed and relieved from the refreshment of being open to take a read.

I have read it like once or twice a while ago, but alright, I'll give it a read. Btw it really helps you telling me that I experience around the second and third pics, got me curious.

By 'anyone can change' do you mean change for the (subjective) better? 'Better' not as in specific roles like a 'leader', 'strategist', 'smart', 'funny', 'confident'.... but rather in the better feeling of liberation and the freedom to focus on the traits that ring true to you and that you naturally want to gravitate towards and that you are the authority to realize that you can feel this way if you choose to and it feels natural? Blah blah, sentence is messed up and I try to wrap my mind on it lol

The desire to change is the desire to feel better. Feeling better, all of those occur naturally. 

11 minutes ago, fopylo said:

 

Watched it long ago lol. Perhaps I'll give it a rewatch

I remain unconvinced. 🙂

 

[fopylo]

@Phil

On 5/17/2022 at 5:23 AM, Phil said:

Awesome, and great inspecting. 

That's all? I believe I was presenting a struggle I have with it. I would really like to understand the nature of thoughts together with feeling. If I feel an itch, automatically a thought of the body part that itches arises and some 'effects'. This is how my mind decides to do...

Anyway, I actually have a question that came up yesterday: How would you differentiate between an experience of focusing on feeling and an experience of focusing on the thought that arises. As an example: You have thoughts about food, and you have sensation at the bottom of your butt, and the thoughts and sensation are identical in both scenarios - putting attention on the thoughts and putting attention on the feeling of your butt. What is the difference?

On 5/17/2022 at 5:23 AM, Phil said:

The desire to change is the desire to feel better. Feeling better, all of those occur naturally. 

dots are connecting

[Phil]

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

That's all?

😂 Sorry! There wasn’t a question in there. I took it like you were sharing what you found from inspecting.  Questions in the form of the shortest sentence possible are always best, that way I know exactly what you’re asking, and that you are asking something. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

 

I believe I was presenting a struggle I have with it. I would really like to understand the nature of thoughts together with feeling. If I feel an itch, automatically a thought of the body part that itches arises and some 'effects'. This is how my mind decides to do...

‘My mind’ is the thought, ‘my mind’.  

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

Anyway, I actually have a question that came up yesterday: How would you differentiate between an experience of focusing on feeling and an experience of focusing on the thought that arises. As an example: You have thoughts about food, and you have sensation at the bottom of your butt, and the thoughts and sensation are identical in both scenarios - putting attention on the thoughts and putting attention on the feeling of your butt. What is the difference?

When you next are about to eat, let’s say an apple… first take a few minutes and focus on the thought, ‘apple’. 

Then take a bite of the apple. Notice taste, texture, sound, etc. 

[fopylo]

@Phil

On 5/19/2022 at 12:47 AM, Phil said:

😂 Sorry! There wasn’t a question in there. I took it like you were sharing what you found from inspecting.  Questions in the form of the shortest sentence possible are always best, that way I know exactly what you’re asking, and that you are asking something. 

This:

On 5/17/2022 at 4:38 AM, fopylo said:

I then realize that the only way I confirm feeling the breath from the stomach, is thoughts (tingling, contrast, streching of the stomach, inhale/exhale, breathing/not breathing).

And when I realized that all of this is just thought, it gets overwhelming - trying to meditate 'properly' and figure out why it's a struggle, and it overwhelms me.

I get frustrated and it seems more like a hurdle than a pleasant activity.

I then don't enjoy the practice and take a break from it.

Was the process I described earlier a healthy process? If not, what should be a better way to approach meditation?

What does it mean to focus on feeling? What does it mean to focus on thought? (in your experience)

Can you not focus on feeling?

When you say focus on the feeling of___, I localize the body part, give it form - in thought, however, is sensational 'areas' true? Like, you can decide to focus on a certain area of your body, but what does it actually mean? Even if you decide to limit your focus to a certain area, isn't sensation something that is occurring throughout your whole body 24/7? Focus is starting to become a mystery to me.

On 5/19/2022 at 12:47 AM, Phil said:

‘My mind’ is the thought, ‘my mind’.

Ok well then just don't read the last sentence, it wasn't the important part.

Something that I realized: When I feel a certain sensation, thought tend to come and capture, give meaning and form the experience (trying to capture it as accurately as it can so that it will be believed more easily to represent actual reality). However, the case doesn't seem to change; Thought are always appearing giving form, and I can't change this fact, try and push it aside.

When I feel the feeling of my foot pressing on the floor - this description in itself is because the more I focus on the feeling, the more the thoughts try to accurately represent what is actually happening. When focusing on this feeling most of what I see are images of a foot pressing the floor rather than dragons fighting with fire. When I have random thoughts of people I know, of sunset, a scene from a show, my family, my duties, and then I suddenly focus on the feeling of my foot on the floor - My thoughts are becoming more about a foot pressing the floor, as opposed to the pleasant more interesting thoughts I was having just a moment ago.

On 5/19/2022 at 12:47 AM, Phil said:

When you next are about to eat, let’s say an apple… first take a few minutes and focus on the thought, ‘apple’. 

Then take a bite of the apple. Notice taste, texture, sound, etc.

I meant more like, thinking about the thought 'apple', and then thinking the thought 'apple' + focusing on the feeling of your butt.

[Phil]

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

“I then realize that the only way I confirm feeling the breath from the stomach, is thoughts (tingling, contrast, streching of the stomach, inhale/exhale, breathing/not breathing).

And when I realized that all of this is just thought, it gets overwhelming - trying to meditate 'properly' and figure out why it's a struggle, and it overwhelms me.

I get frustrated and it seems more like a hurdle than a pleasant activity.

I then don't enjoy the practice and take a break from it.”

 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

Was the process I described earlier a healthy process?

“All of this” isn’t thought(s). That’s believing the thought(s), that all of this is thought(s). There isn’t that “it” which, get’s, overwhelming. Overwhelming is the emotion experienced. The emotion of overwhelment is guidance in regard to the belief, “the only way to confirm feeling is…”. 

 

Healthy or not isn’t applicable. With respect to meditation, thoughts about meditation aren’t applicable / aren’t meditation. . It’s like asking if these thoughts about riding a bike are healthy. It’s not about health or thoughts about riding a bike, it’s just simply about riding a bike. It’s ok to ask questions about riding a bike of course, but thoughts won’t add up to be riding the bike. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

If not, what should be a better way to approach meditation?

There isn’t really better or should, there’s just opinions, suggestions, recommendations. 

This is the suggestion, which hasn’t changed… https://www.actualityofbeing.com/basic-meditation-posture-balance-relaxation-body-scan.

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

What does it mean to focus on feeling? What does it mean to focus on thought? (in your experience)

Meaning is the believing of thoughts and seems to be a thing if & when believed. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

Can you not focus on feeling?

It’s like if someone says “hey wow! look at the moon! It’s red!” while pointing to the moon… but you’re not looking at the moon, you’re looking at their finger. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

When you say focus on the feeling of___, I localize the body part, give it form - in thought, however, is sensational 'areas' true? Like, you can decide to focus on a certain area of your body, but what does it actually mean?

Form & meaning are thoughts. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

Even if you decide to limit your focus to a certain area, isn't sensation something that is occurring throughout your whole body 24/7? Focus is starting to become a mystery to me.

That focus is yours is a believing of thoughts, duality. Notice the thought “to me” has always been believed, and yet has always been, a thought. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

Ok well then just don't read the last sentence, it wasn't the important part.

Something that I realized: When I feel a certain sensation, thought tend to come and capture, give meaning and form the experience (trying to capture it as accurately as it can so that it will be believed more easily to represent actual reality). However, the case doesn't seem to change; Thought are always appearing giving form, and I can't change this fact, try and push it aside.

When I feel the feeling of my foot pressing on the floor - this description in itself is because the more I focus on the feeling, the more the thoughts try to accurately represent what is actually happening. When focusing on this feeling most of what I see are images of a foot pressing the floor rather than dragons fighting with fire. When I have random thoughts of people I know, of sunset, a scene from a show, my family, my duties, and then I suddenly focus on the feeling of my foot on the floor - My thoughts are becoming more about a foot pressing the floor, as opposed to the pleasant more interesting thoughts I was having just a moment ago.

I meant more like, thinking about the thought 'apple', and then thinking the thought 'apple' + focusing on the feeling of your butt.

 

Suggestions… 

Start a journal today. Ideally, right now. Just type whatever thoughts arise. Allow. Witness fingers typing, thoughts happening.

Exercise every morning, then meditate.  

Put time aside twice a day for meditation, and put time aside for ruminating / thinking about meditation (if desirable). 

Make a dreamboard and allow thought to align with feeling. Rather than thinking about feeling, use the emotional scale & express. 

Limit sugar consumption to 40 grams per day, and caffeine to one cup. 

Don’t eat or drink anything but water after 8pm. If this is the changing of a habit and there are hunger pains late in the evening, drink more water. 

 

Review the Ox Herder pics. Which pic are you (so to speak) at on your path?

 

Just Let Source Take Out The Garbage.

 

Peace, equanimity, happiness, love, etc, are not a result of thinking, solving or figuring out. Thought is for what you want. You are creating reality. Allow the focusing on thoughts of what you want. 🙂

[fopylo]

@Phil

6 hours ago, Phil said:

“All of this” isn’t thought(s)

It is though. I meant the 'tingling', 'contrast', 'stretching of the stomach', 'inhale/exhale', 'breathing/not breathing' - these are all labels, images.

6 hours ago, Phil said:

The emotion of overwhelment is guidance in regard to the belief, “the only way to confirm feeling is…”. 

Thank you, but why did you think so, that this is the belief that causes the emotion of overwhelment?

Regardless, I have a question about emotions:

Do emotions lie on the spectrum between unwanted (thoughts) and wanted (thoughts)?

Also, I've realized a greater insight about the nature of good feeling:

I have believed for a long time that feeling better means you are smiling more, feel warmer in your body and excited by life and have lots of energy. Now I am realizing that feeling good means feeling relief from your subjective experience (and I want to believe that feeling, in itself, is feeling good, but I still need to confirm).

7 hours ago, Phil said:

8 hours ago, fopylo said:

What does it mean to focus on feeling? What does it mean to focus on thought? (in your experience)

Meaning is the believing of thoughts and seems to be a thing if & when believed.

Ok, I don't know if you somehow tried to riddle your answer here but I didn't find it so clear. What I meant to ask you is right now, right this moment, you focus on the feeling of your arms; wait like 5 seconds and now focus on the thoughts - What is the difference in experience?

 

7 hours ago, Phil said:

It’s like if someone says “hey wow! look at the moon! It’s red!” while pointing to the moon… but you’re not looking at the moon, you’re looking at their finger. 

7 hours ago, Phil said:

8 hours ago, fopylo said:

When you say focus on the feeling of___, I localize the body part, give it form - in thought, however, is sensational 'areas' true? Like, you can decide to focus on a certain area of your body, but what does it actually mean?

Form & meaning are thoughts. 

Yes, this is what I'm saying. I've realized that when I experience a sensation, even hear a sound (maybe even when looking at something, but we'll leave it), thoughts immediately rush in trying to give it form, and ideas about what it actually is, trying as accurately as it can to explain what is actually going on. And your example is really emphasizing what I am saying, so great example!

So not feeling = yes thoughts? If that's the case, then:

not hearing = yes thoughts, not seeing = yes thoughts? If there is no sensation, then thought will cover up for it deluding you?

But as your example, "looking at the moon" would mean looking at the vast infinite nature of raw experience?

I also noticed that the deeper I focus on hearing, the deeper I believe the thoughts arising.

 

But with regard to my question, is it possible to feel only my arm, and not my entire body? (Since localization is just a thought)

7 hours ago, Phil said:

Start a journal today. Ideally, right now. Just type whatever thoughts arise. Allow. Witness fingers typing, thoughts happening.

Exercise every morning, then meditate.  

Put time aside twice a day for meditation, and put time aside for ruminating / thinking about meditation (if desirable). 

Make a dreamboard and allow thought to align with feeling. Rather than thinking about feeling, use the emotional scale & express. 

Limit sugar consumption to 40 grams per day, and caffeine to one cup. 

Don’t eat or drink anything but water after 8pm. If this is the changing of a habit and there are hunger pains late in the evening, drink more water. 

Hey man, I'm gonna be very straightforward with you - I really don't give a damn about all this stuff. I could really care less. Thanks for the suggestions though (should have said it before. Oh, wait one second. This is a great opportunity to practice what you've just said, because hell, I wouldn't just free time on my own to do it. I am witnessing my fingers typing. Yo man, I don't know what to say. Like in the moment of writing I am focusing on what I am gonna say, but somehow the feeling of my fingers typing just plays into it, as though it is part of the overall experience. It complements it somehow, but I don't really know. Usually I don't ever considering having feeling my fingers typing (but only after I've finished typing I can confirm that I have felt a feeling, because I am not aware that I am even feeling. There is no such thing as "focusing on feeling", because it somehow tends to involve the mind a lot). But what do you mean by 'Allow'? Anyhow, since I'm lazy as hell, I'll practice it only when I'll already be intending to type something.

As regard to everything else you said man... No offense but I couldn't give s sh*t about sugar and caffeine consumption (I anyways barely drink caffeine), and really about the eating part. Meditation and putting time aside for ruminating also, but I might consider, the meditation more.

7 hours ago, Phil said:

Review the Ox Herder pics. Which pic are you (so to speak) at on your path?

It seems for me that pic 3 rings for me, especially the 'connecting the dots', but still don't feel like I am really experiencing everything in depth. I feel like I have quite a way before I move into pic 4.

 

Reversing the question back to you - Which pic are you at on your path?

7 hours ago, Phil said:

Peace, equanimity, happiness, love, etc, are not a result of thinking, solving or figuring out. Thought is for what you want. You are creating reality. Allow the focusing on thoughts of what you want. 🙂

Beautiful

[Phil]

59 minutes ago, fopylo said:

It is though.

Ok. 

[fopylo]

@Phil That's all?

[Phil]

@fopylo

Maybe I didn’t quite get what you’re saying. It sounds like you’re saying there’s nothing more to reality than thoughts. If that’s what you’re saying, and I’m understanding you accurately, it would be illogical and fruitless to express anymore of them. 

[fopylo]

@Phil I asked some questions though

[Phil]

@fopylo

🙂 Yes and I gave some answers too. If you have any other questions they’re definitely welcomed! My two cents would be to skinny questions down to as few words as possible. 

[fopylo]

@Phil

22 hours ago, fopylo said:

Do emotions lie on the spectrum between unwanted (thoughts) and wanted (thoughts)?

 

22 hours ago, fopylo said:

right this moment, you focus on the feeling of your arms; wait like 5 seconds and now focus on the thoughts - What is the difference in experience?

 

22 hours ago, fopylo said:

So not feeling = yes thoughts? If that's the case, then:

not hearing = yes thoughts, not seeing = yes thoughts? If there is no sensation, then thought will cover up for it deluding you?

 

22 hours ago, fopylo said:

is it possible to feel only my arm, and not my entire body? (Since localization is just a thought)

 

22 hours ago, fopylo said:

Reversing the question back to you - Which pic are you at on your path?

 

[fopylo]

5 hours ago, Phil said:

Maybe I didn’t quite get what you’re saying. It sounds like you’re saying there’s nothing more to reality than thoughts. If that’s what you’re saying, and I’m understanding you accurately, it would be illogical and fruitless to express anymore of them.

But is it correct though? Do you have any feedback on it? It sounds like you're saying "if you believe so, then fine, go ahead and believe it", which confuses me whether I'm "getting it" or not

[Phil]

@fopylo

Getting what?

Opinions, suggestions, direct experience, the truth…? 

What is correct in direct experience?