How to become a leader

[Phil]

28 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Phil

Yeah exactly. That is exactly the paradox I am facing now. As I'm meditating and focusing on feeling, I meanwhile try contemplating what is actually going on, but it is confusing, because if there is no thought of "feeling" and no "me feeling" (feeler), then I have no way to know that I'm feeling, you get me? In that case my understanding of feeling must change. Another related thing:

As I've told you already, my first tendency when intending to focus on a certain feeling is to think (so to speak) about (conceptualize) the feeling, body part, and me doing the meditation, and now I understand why - it is because these type of thoughts make the feeling seem more real and I am more focused (not that it is like that for the whole session, but it almost every session starts like that). Today I literally tried to focus (and I wouldn't even really call it 'focus') on relaxing into the direct experience of breathing. I won't say it worked perfectly but I can tell you something for sure - when the session ended I felt a sense of freedom and clarity; not from the meditation, but rather because the 'burden' of the practice ended.

I didn't ask exactly about meditation but rather the ox herding pics. Never mind, I'll just consider you to have gone through all the path and to realize all those meta things.

Unrelated, just because I'm now curious:

How old is you oldest child? And do you open them up to the things you teach here (like give them these same advices)?

How has running a so called spiritual business affected your relationship with your family?

What kind of music do you play on the guitar, and do you still write songs?

I’d meditate   or  contemplate. 

If meditation is a burden, don’t. If you want a suggestion, expression / writing. 

Mid twenties. 

Yes, same.

Relationships w family only getting richer & deeper. 

Singer songwriter. 

Yes. Lots. Lately about communion. 

[fopylo]

@Orb

6 hours ago, Orb said:

In meditation you are in such direct contact with direct experience that instead of knowing what you're feeling you are simply the feeling completely. 

Damn that is powerful. It seems true what you're saying. So you are the feeling completely but you don't notice it, in the sense of saying to yourself 'ah, I am the feeling completely', because that would be more thought I believe... Do you mean it in the same way like the fact that your heart is pumping even when you aren't noticing? It also seems like you're saying that feeling = experiencing, but then why necessarily feeling? Isn't hearing/seeing/smelling = experiencing as well?

Also, if direct experience, the natural, the default is what we're really going for, then why is it that focusing on say feeling help achieve this direct contact?

 

@Phil

Hey Phil, as we are discussing about meditation I wonder how Jealousy comes to play...

Why does Jealousy feel so bad? (please remind me the nature of discord, forgive me but I forgot lol)

And when feeling Jealousy, how does feeling my breath help in any way? Something I've just realized is that I am not really capable of experiencing Jealousy exactly for what it is because there's always this tiny very soft voice in the background of my mind that is preparing the tools and wisdom I try to carry with me. Little did I know, this is sneaky conceptualization. It seems for me like you must let go of pretty much all insights and tools because they will find a way to be at the back of my mind ready to deploy, which are, more thoughts (attachment), and it seems like the only real solution is to simply experience this direct experience and all of those tools, ideas and insights are here to show me that. So yeah, same when experiencing Jealousy, but how does experiencing it help me move up/ feel better/ have better clarity?

And if emotion = feeling + thought, then emotion basically occurs and is experienced best when you are living direct experience and thoughts occur. However, like we discussed before, in such moment, you won't know/be aware of the emotion you're experiencing because knowing so is conceptualizing and 'gets you out' of experience.

 

6 hours ago, Phil said:

If meditation is a burden, don’t. If you want a suggestion, expression / writing.

I think 'burden' was too of a strong word I chose. What is common between meditation and expressive writing? Do they share the same 'goal'?

6 hours ago, Phil said:

Mid twenties.

Oh damn, reminds me of the time I had a session with you and you were waiting for your son to come back from school and I thought your children are still small kids. Why don't you bring him/her to the forum?

6 hours ago, Phil said:

Yes. Lots. Lately about communion.

Nice, but what genre/s?

[Orb]

30 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Orb

Do you mean it in the same way like the fact that your heart is pumping even when you aren't noticing?

 

@fopylo Thats going in the right direction 🙂.

 

30 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Orb

 It also seems like you're saying that feeling = experiencing, but then why necessarily feeling? Isn't hearing/seeing/smelling = experiencing as well?

 

Feeling is another word for experience, feeling is every single "thing" in direct experience. People can often read the word "feeling" on this forum and mistakenly assume it refers to just emotions, it refers to everything.

 

If you wanna take things a lil deeper, you can recognize that senses dont exist (Hearing/Touching/Smelling/Tasting/Seeing). We can say the "senses" are all synchronized so beautifully that theres actually no way to isolate one sensation in direct experience, but there can be an arising thought that says there is an isolated sensation.

 

30 minutes ago, fopylo said:

Also, if direct experience, the natural, the default is what we're really going for, then why is it that focusing on say feeling help achieve this direct contact?

 

Assuming youve read the above portion of my response, you may be aware that feeling refers to all sensation in direct experience.

 

Focus on feeling can be focusing on ANY sensation, whatevers easiest for you, body awareness works, breath awareness works, emotional awareness works, awareness of sound can work too.

 

It works because reality is pure Feeling/Vibration/Sensation already only thoughts make it seem like theres isolated "things" "feelings" "sense" etc.

 

So focusing on feeling means allowing relaxation, which is like the drop of water merging with the ocean!

 

In pure direct experience you are so "yourSelf", that its like everything is shining light, vibrating (OM), powerful, but theres no one who can see, taste, touch, etc. Just pure being. To add some more descriptiveness, it's like everything is happening at once, and synchronized so perfectly that nothing is happening.

 

One way I like to call it is being in touch with the "Real World", thats actually what shocked me the most the first time I relaxed enough to allow the source to show itself. Its just the real/material world without discordant thinking of a self, problems, etc. (Although, real/material are just pointers, just like Spiritual/Ephemeral 😉.)

 

Its quite normal too, and funny. I remember looking at the fan in my room and seeing how amazing it is the blades spinning, the movement of it. What was once ordinary was seen to be miraculous, but still ordinary lol.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Orb

[Phil]

48 minutes ago, fopylo said:

 

@Phil

Hey Phil, as we are discussing about meditation I wonder how Jealousy comes to play...

Why does Jealousy feel so bad? (please remind me the nature of discord, forgive me but I forgot lol)

And when feeling Jealousy, how does feeling my breath help in any way? Something I've just realized is that I am not really capable of experiencing Jealousy exactly for what it is because there's always this tiny very soft voice in the background of my mind that is preparing the tools and wisdom I try to carry with me. Little did I know, this is sneaky conceptualization. It seems for me like you must let go of pretty much all insights and tools because they will find a way to be at the back of my mind ready to deploy, which are, more thoughts (attachment), and it seems like the only real solution is to simply experience this direct experience and all of those tools, ideas and insights are here to show me that. So yeah, same when experiencing Jealousy, but how does experiencing it help me move up/ feel better/ have better clarity?

And if emotion = feeling + thought, then emotion basically occurs and is experienced best when you are living direct experience and thoughts occur. However, like we discussed before, in such moment, you won't know/be aware of the emotion you're experiencing because knowing so is conceptualizing and 'gets you out' of experience.

 

I think 'burden' was too of a strong word I chose. What is common between meditation and expressive writing? Do they share the same 'goal'?

Oh damn, reminds me of the time I had a session with you and you were waiting for your son to come back from school and I thought your children are still small kids. Why don't you bring him/her to the forum?

Nice, but what genre/s?

 

The insight would be that jealousy doesn’t feel bad… through the perspective that you are a creator and there is desire. If you see something you want, know you know something you want. Write it on the dreamboard. 

If discordant perspective(s) arise when jealousy is felt, focusing on feeling breathing from the stomach allows the mind to clear, and a more aligned perspective to arise, or be ‘reached for’. 

As to how it helps you feel better & have more clarity… it is slightly better feeling and slightly more clarifying than fear, unworthiness, powerlessness, etc. 

Often when meditation is overwhelming, it’s because suppression is surfacing. This is ideal, in letting it go, it coming up & out. But this can be difficult too. When too difficult, it is often easier to write thoughts which are arising. It let’s it out so to speak, and is more clarifying seeing the thoughts visually. 

They’re welcome to the forum like anyone else. 

I like all genres. I like to play songs from any genre acoustically. I like using different chords and keys with the lyrics too.  I’m more into writing though lately. Allowing really. 

[fopylo]

@Phil

10 hours ago, Phil said:

If discordant perspective(s) arise when jealousy is felt, focusing on feeling breathing from the stomach allows the mind to clear, and a more aligned perspective to arise, or be ‘reached for’. 

What is suppression?

And isn't Jealousy (and for that matter, all emotions under contentment) a result of suppression, or it can be experienced even without thought attachment?

Do you experience Jealousy sometimes or are you all day living in Joy?

And by 'focusing' I believe you mean 'relax into'.

10 hours ago, Phil said:

When too difficult, it is often easier to write thoughts which are arising. It let’s it out so to speak, and is more clarifying seeing the thoughts visually.

I think I get it: Meditation is focusing on the feeling of the breath, relaxing, allowing, and therefore raising vibration and allowing better/clearer thoughts. If it is too hard to let go/ too attached to the thought/ holds you too tight/ believe it too much as to make it difficult to simply perceive at and relax, I can express by writing the thought as to let it out and perceive it, relax and move up the scale.

10 hours ago, Phil said:

They’re welcome to the forum like anyone else. 

Are they actually here?

 

10 hours ago, Phil said:

Allowing really. 

Lol man, you answer my questions so out in order I have to figure the puzzle haha

 

10 hours ago, Phil said:

I like all genres.

Do you play Flamenco?

[fopylo]

@Orb

10 hours ago, Orb said:

Feeling is another word for experience, feeling is every single "thing" in direct experience. People can often read the word "feeling" on this forum and mistakenly assume it refers to just emotions, it refers to everything.

Bro, I have a very simple solution: Why not just call it perceiving? - this is literally the definition of what you just said, and includes seeing, sensing, hearing, smelling, tasting.

 

10 hours ago, Orb said:

We can say the "senses" are all synchronized so beautifully that theres actually no way to isolate one sensation in direct experience, but there can be an arising thought that says there is an isolated sensation.

Exactly! And that is exactly why I don't understand the idea of "focus on your breath" for meditation (or on any other body part). It just brings (during meditation) thoughts about the breath/the body part and to try to focus on this feeling as though it's exclusive from the other feelings.

 

10 hours ago, Orb said:

In pure direct experience you are so "yourSelf"

Maximum relaxation I believe.. I also believe it's a misconception to equate relaxation to not moving much, not so energetic/hyped.

 

10 hours ago, Orb said:

vibrating (OM)

what?

 

10 hours ago, Orb said:

but theres no one who can see, taste, touch, etc. Just pure being. To add some more descriptiveness, it's like everything is happening at once, and synchronized so perfectly that nothing is happening.

I can actually imagine the scenario not too bad in my head. It seems like being so immersed in the experience that all is left is the experience.

 

10 hours ago, Orb said:

Its just the real/material world without discordant thinking of a self, problems, etc.

I am glad you said that.

[Phil]

41 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Phil

What is suppression?

A thought or interpretation, which doesn’t resonate but is believed anyways. 

41 minutes ago, fopylo said:

And isn't Jealousy (and for that matter, all emotions under contentment) a result of suppression, or it can be experienced even without thought attachment?

Emotion can be experienced with & without thought attachment. Also, experience, that there is something that is ‘expereince’ is a thought based duality.

Jealousy wouldn’t be a result of, but what is happening now. Real-time guidance. 

41 minutes ago, fopylo said:

Do you experience Jealousy sometimes or are you all day living in Joy?

Jealousy & joy are arising distinctions (thoughts) and are one & the same in direct experience. Look to direct experience vs conceptualizations of other(s). 

41 minutes ago, fopylo said:

And by 'focusing' I believe you mean 'relax into'.

I think I get it: Meditation is focusing on the feeling of the breath, relaxing, allowing, and therefore raising vibration and allowing better/clearer thoughts. If it is too hard to let go/ too attached to the thought/ holds you too tight/ believe it too much as to make it difficult to simply perceive at and relax, I can express by writing the thought as to let it out and perceive it, relax and move up the scale.

Nice. Resonates

Minus the implied perceiver.  🙂

41 minutes ago, fopylo said:

Are they actually here?

 

Lol man, you answer my questions so out in order I have to figure the puzzle haha

Pointings to direct experience are only seemingly conceptually puzzling when unnoticed deflection occurs. What is or isn’t actually ‘here’ isn’t a matter of what anyone else says, but of inspection of what is or isn’t actually ‘here’. 

41 minutes ago, fopylo said:

 

Do you play Flamenco?

No. Started with classical though. I like flamenco. 

 

If someone said try the taste of a chocolate milkshake, would you expect to experience the taste from a conversation about the milkshake?

Same for the truth, isn’t it so?

[Orb]

13 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Orb

Bro, I have a very simple solution: Why not just call it perceiving? - this is literally the definition of what you just said, and includes seeing, sensing, hearing, smelling, tasting.

@fopylo The preference for the right word is totally dependent on what works for you. For example, I find the word "feeling" good because its simple and straight to the point, perception may work for you in communicating with people, as long as its made clear that it refers to pure sensation imo.

 

15 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Orb

Maximum relaxation I believe.. I also believe it's a misconception to equate relaxation to not moving much, not so energetic/hyped.

Relaxation IMO is the quality of bringing mindfulness to all activities. I can be lifting weights like a maniac, or closing my eyes, focusing on the breath, focusing on the movement of the muscles, and suddenly theres a relaxing quality to the activity.

 

19 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Orb

Exactly! And that is exactly why I don't understand the idea of "focus on your breath" for meditation (or on any other body part). It just brings (during meditation) thoughts about the breath/the body part and to try to focus on this feeling as though it's exclusive from the other feelings.

 

You are aware of the breath right? At least the thing the word points to, you can feel the inhalation/exhalation? Focus on that. 

 

There is no actual isolated sensations, focusing on sensation will show you this. Any question about focusing on sensation is just postponing the action of sitting and focusing on sensation, my answer has nothing over the direct experience of what was said, although nothing wrong with asking.

 

25 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Orb

I can actually imagine the scenario not too bad in my head. It seems like being so immersed in the experience that all is left is the experience.

 

Its nice to imagine the scenario (sounds like seeing the footprints of the ox), the direct experience is better. 

 

26 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Orb

what?

 

Everything is OM, or vibration, thats all I was pointing out. If youd like to understand more then meditation will help lol.

 

27 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Orb

I am glad you said that.

 

Yep, im surprised not many people point to it in this way, maybe it wouldnt make as much money lol. 

 

When you "see" the "real/material" world without discordant thoughts arising, it becomes clear that all this "stuff" is infinite intelligence, untouched by words/distinctions.

[fopylo]

@Phil

23 minutes ago, Phil said:

Emotion can be experienced with & without thought attachment.

So then, so to speak, at a certain stage after practicing a lot of meditation and being very relaxed then I'll be experiencing emotions more powerfully (since I am allowing more)? And I believe you can say the opposite as well - the more you create beliefs, the less emotions you experience.

 

26 minutes ago, Phil said:

Jealousy & joy are arising distinctions (thoughts) and are one & the same in direct experience.

Yeah, they are labels for different types/categorizations of thoughts.

For me, so to speak (using language for making it easier for me to understand), when most of your life is lived in freedom (as opposed to discord) then are you experiencing more Joy, or more of the emotion you're currently experiencing, or both?

29 minutes ago, Phil said:

Pointings to direct experience are only seemingly conceptually puzzling when unnoticed deflection occurs. What is or isn’t actually ‘here’ isn’t a matter of what anyone else says, but of inspection of what is or isn’t actually ‘here’.

I knew I should've phrased my question differently because I knew you would nit-pick on the use of words I chose. I am asking if they have users on the forum man... If it is private information then fine I respect that.

 

31 minutes ago, Phil said:

No. Started with classical though. I like flamenco. 

 

If someone said try the taste of a chocolate milkshake, would you expect to experience the taste from a conversation about the milkshake?

Same for the truth, isn’t it so?

You answered yourself. I suggest you try playing it. I also like flamenco, but it is a question whether you have a desire to play flamenco.

[Phil]

12 minutes ago, fopylo said:

So then, so to speak, at a certain stage after practicing a lot of meditation and being very relaxed then I'll be experiencing emotions more powerfully (since I am allowing more)? And I believe you can say the opposite as well - the more you create beliefs, the less emotions you experience.

The stating of so to speak, and asking that very question, is an ‘inner’ conflict. Sincerity is the resolve. 

12 minutes ago, fopylo said:

Yeah, they are labels for different types/categorizations of thoughts.

For me, so to speak (using language for making it easier for me to understand), when most of your life is lived in freedom (as opposed to discord) then are you experiencing more Joy, or more of the emotion you're currently experiencing, or both?

Same for stating ‘using language etc’. 

12 minutes ago, fopylo said:

I knew I should've phrased my question differently because I knew you would nit-pick on the use of words I chose. I am asking if they have users on the forum man... If it is private information then fine I respect that.

To see direct experience, that a thought is a thought, to let it come & go freely, be willing to spot deflection & projection upon others in direct experience. If it’s helpful.. in ‘your’ ‘inner’ experience. Respect yourself, so to speak, in this manor. Self-respect. Integrity. 🙂🤍

12 minutes ago, fopylo said:

You answered yourself. I suggest you try playing it. I also like flamenco, but it is a question whether you have a desire to play flamenco.

Yes I agree. 

[fopylo]

@Orb

22 minutes ago, Orb said:

perception may work for you in communicating with people, as long as its made clear that it refers to pure sensation imo.

Perception in itself is pure direct experience.

 

23 minutes ago, Orb said:

Relaxation IMO is the quality of bringing mindfulness to all activities. I can be lifting weights like a maniac, or closing my eyes, focusing on the breath, focusing on the movement of the muscles, and suddenly theres a relaxing quality to the activity.

IMO (which is just a different angle of interpretation) is that relaxation is the quality of allowing. Instead of focusing, I prefer allowing, because focusing sounds like it implies the use of the mind and the thought of 'focus', 'me', but it is really simply like that for me personally. When you are relaxed you are not 'scared' so to speak (resisting) to face all aspects of your experience in the moment and therefore it is more mindful.

 

28 minutes ago, Orb said:

Any question about focusing on sensation is just postponing the action of sitting and focusing on sensation, my answer has nothing over the direct experience of what was said, although nothing wrong with asking.

I think the best thing for me is to do relaxation meditations, to calm down my contemplations and just feel good without understanding.

 

29 minutes ago, Orb said:

Its nice to imagine the scenario (sounds like seeing the footprints of the ox), the direct experience is better.

What pic would you say you're at?

 

29 minutes ago, Orb said:

Everything is OM, or vibration, thats all I was pointing out. If youd like to understand more then meditation will help lol.

Yeah I just didn't understand what is OM. And about vibration, it seems that it points mainly to thoughts.. Like you relax and therefore allow and experience/feel/perceive more and thoughts become more clear/ better feeling, and this better feeling thought/perspectives define how you view your experience, and when the view is better, I guess you can say 'raising' vibration (quality of thoughts).

 

33 minutes ago, Orb said:

When you "see" the "real/material" world without discordant thoughts arising, it becomes clear that all this "stuff" is infinite intelligence, untouched by words/distinctions.

Did you have any peak experiences during/after meditation?

[fopylo]

@Phil

On 5/27/2022 at 4:23 PM, Phil said:

Same for stating ‘using language etc’.

Man.. but you're picking on the incidental.. I've asked an essential question though

On 5/27/2022 at 4:23 PM, Phil said:

To see direct experience, that a thought is a thought, to let it come & go freely, be willing to spot deflection & projection upon others in direct experience. If it’s helpful.. in ‘your’ ‘inner’ experience. Respect yourself, so to speak, in this manor. Self-respect. Integrity. 🙂🤍

I'll take it as a "none of your business man". Oh well then, I guess I'll just steal this quote and paste it when someone asks me "Is (name) here?" Perhaps they'll totally respect that answer and have more trust in me. They'll take it as "none of your business, fuck off" and act cool with it.

 

[Phil]

@fopylo

‘Take it’ how you like, if at all. 🤔
There’s always giving too. 
What if there’s no such thing as emotions experienced in a future?

What if that is a belief being created?