How to become a leader

[Mandy]

 

[fopylo]

@Phil

Come on man, I just asked a few questions above and it seems you just don't want to answer and I'd rather you tell me you don't know if you really don't know the answer

Edited May 23, 2022 by fopylo

[Phil]

10 hours ago, fopylo said:

@Phil

Come on man, I just asked a few questions above and it seems you just don't want to answer and I'd rather you tell me you don't know if you really don't know the answer

The most relevant factor is what it is you’re trying to get at / what you want / the why of the questions you’re asking. It might be rumination in avoidance of meditation, feeling, or inspecting direct experience. Journaling (expression of feeling & emotions) would be more ideal than questions or thinking about feeling and emotions. More expression, more feeling, more emotion, more direct experience. The finger & moon reference is like saying you’re asking about the moon, and it’s being pointed to for you to look at (inspect directly) but you’re still looking at the finger. 

 

Do emotions lie on the spectrum between unwanted (thoughts) and wanted (thoughts)?

What’s ‘the spectrum’? 

 

right this moment, you focus on the feeling of your arms; wait like 5 seconds and now focus on the thoughts - What is the difference in experience?

Can you see how finding a difference in experience would require inspecting experience? 

What do you find? 

Meditation is allowing the activity of thought to settle. Then it’s clear ‘feeling of your arms’ is a thought, which is handy for conversation, communication, but doesn’t actually define feeling. 

 

So not feeling = yes thoughts? If that's the case, then:

not hearing = yes thoughts, not seeing = yes thoughts? If there is no sensation, then thought will cover up for it deluding you?

Not really sure what’s meant by that. I suggest meditation and inspecting direct experience. Also question what a you actually is, in direct experience, vs any assumption or beliefs. That will help thought attachment be seen, as it’s likely the thought people is believed to define perception like the thought feeling of your arms is believed to be sensation. 

 

is it possible to feel only my arm, and not my entire body? (Since localization is just a thought)

Check and see.  

   

Reversing the question back to you - Which pic are you at on your path?

What is meant by you? Is there such a thing? Are there separate selves, or is there the believing of the thoughts about there being, separate selves? 

 

Question knowing and not knowing. There might be an assumption of a you, without inspecting if that is thought / belief… and projection of a you not knowing… what is only actually believed to be known… but which is actually thought attachment. Put another way, question, am I trying to add to solve when letting conditioning go is actually the desired liberation. 

[Lotus]

10 hours ago, fopylo said:

@Phil

Come on man, I just asked a few questions above and it seems you just don't want to answer and I'd rather you tell me you don't know if you really don't know the answer

Boldly assuming here, but judging from what I've read in this thread, you're experiencing blame in the above quote. Blame in the form of "c'mon man, you just don't want to answer". Again, judging and evaluating from what I've read in this thread, plenty of answers and pointers have been given already, so I don't think Phil avoids answering and giving 'his perspective'. It might be that you're experiencing blame and projecting it onto Phil.

 

The Work by Byron Katie makes you turn around your beliefs. Soo.. in case you actually do experience blame, I'd turn it around and ask myself:

Am I blaming Phil for poor explanation and not answering?

Am I blaming Phil for not understanding leadership?

Am I blaming myself for not understanding leadership?

Am I projecting beliefs that I have about myself onto others? If so, how?

 

 

I could be completely wrong about this, but if you happen to find any kind of resonance, I'd suggest contemplating the above. Contemplation, introspection & emptying - not chatting and dwelling on the given pointers.

 

PS: With the questions, I'm not implying anything. I'm not implying that you don't understand leadership nor that Phil explains poorly (nor the opposite).

[fopylo]

@Phil

Hey, out of the blue just decided to share something.

Alright, I decided to meditate...

After a training session + a walk with my dog + the fact I was in my room tired, I decided to meditate.

I sat down on the floor and tried focusing on the feeling beneath my butt. As I've predicted, thoughts came up and tried to give form to the feeling (thought), to the overall experience of "me meditating" (thought). My goal was to inspect and test out in the "flesh" my concerns I laid upon you. What I realized is that as I am focused on the sensation (sensation is a label but at the moment I was experiencing it with as little labels as I could), the more thoughts seem to come and go, appear at their "pace". But that is meanwhile I am intentionally focusing on the sensation. However, when a thought arises and I focus on it, the more it seems to be attached, "stuck", "mindlessly" going with it without consideration of whether it feels natural or not.

As I am keeping to shift my focus back to the sensation I wanted to understand the change in feeling when thoughts aren't about giving form to the sensation. So, naturally, thought about the feeling and 'me' feeling and meditating arise (natural) - and here is a key difference from the previous attempts. At this moment I usually get frustrated that the thoughts are about conceptualizing the experience and that it is somehow wrong. There is a difference between wrong and false - yes, the thoughts are just pointers and can't exactly represent actual reality, however, at the end of the day this whole life is one big mind and everything you believe to be reality is false by default (or true, depends on how you look at it), and so I am just going along with that thought, as long as it feels natural. I continue to focus on the feeling and I see colors, landscapes, trees, martial arts, people training, and now I believe the feeling is coming from those images, like it's derived from it. Continuing more and I came to realize that this feeling is what's grounding me in the present moment, the default realm in which thoughts come and go, and feeling inspires them. I started feeling content and then I had cool ass thoughts and beautiful desirable scenes, but still trying to shift my focus back to the feeling of my butt, and I realized - that focusing on the feeling of the butt ≠ deliberately focusing on thoughts about my butt and me, and so I was feeling as though the feeling of my butt is the exact feeling that is inspiring those creative beautiful thoughts. After all thoughts are let go at Contentment, the feeling inspires very desirable thoughts (I have also inspected while having a shower and feeling the warm water wash my body).

Still, however, I have questions remaining concerning the boundaries of sensations.

I need to chill down lol. This was just a little experience, but there is some more practice until it becomes a realization.

[fopylo]

@Phil

19 hours ago, Phil said:

It might be rumination in avoidance of meditation, feeling, or inspecting direct experience.

I'll tell you what, I don't think you're wrong. There is great benefit of meditation and inspecting direct experience, however, I really like asking questions in order to understand the how and the why of the nature of this direct experience/reality. Meditating now would be different than meditating 2 years ago because now I know and understand more, for instance: You have helped me by suggesting I put more attention to the way things make me feel rather than if they're right/wrong in making decisions. I understood (through day to day living and inspecting) that all my satisfying decisions are made because it feels good/true/relieving, and the unsatisfying decisions are made because of averting from feeling and believing some principal(s). Reading books helps me inspect while I'm reading and to consider other peoples' perspectives to be leading me on the right path. I think it is healthy and encouraged.

19 hours ago, Phil said:

Meditation is allowing the activity of thought to settle.

You are saying it as though there are no thoughts during meditation. They just come and go more fluidly (ime).

 

19 hours ago, Phil said:

Reversing the question back to you - Which pic are you at on your path?

What is meant by you? Is there such a thing? Are there separate selves, or is there the believing of the thoughts about there being, separate selves? 

No but come on, like, you did understand the question though. Obviously I was using 'you', 'at' for communication purpose. You asked me the same exact question just before lol. So, what pic would you say represents your experience? I am asking because I am curious.

[fopylo]

@Lotus

10 hours ago, Lotus said:

Am I blaming Phil for poor explanation and not answering?

Am I blaming Phil for not understanding leadership?

Am I blaming myself for not understanding leadership?

Am I projecting beliefs that I have about myself onto others? If so, how?

Yes

No

Yes

I don't know/see

[Phil]

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

You are saying it as though there are no thoughts during meditation. They just come and go more fluidly (ime).

At first thoughts come & go more fluidly, and great to hear of that experience. 👊🏼

With practice, there are no arising thoughts. By practice, most fundamentally I mean attention on feeling breathing in the stomach. The mind so to speak actually does completely quiet. With more practice, formal seated or just through out the day, the activity of thought can be ‘turned on’ and ‘turned off’ ‘at will’. This has been verified with EEG’s. 

 

If it’s helpful or useful… thoughts don’t answer the how and why of direct experience / reality. That that is accurate, is actually the believing of thoughts, about thoughts. Similarly, thoughts also don’t ‘give form’ to anything, form is a thought. Of course, you may find otherwise in your direct experience. 

 

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

No but come on, like, you did understand the question though. Obviously I was using 'you', 'at' for communication purpose. You asked me the same exact question just before lol. So, what pic would you say represents your experience? I am asking because I am curious.

 Yes, the question was understood. Was the answer? If ‘you’ is used only for communication purposes, then awareness is aware and there is no Phil. I can not earnestly pick a picture which represents my experience or experience because there is no such thing as experience or anything which is mine.  Might not be a desirable answer, but it is the honest answer nonetheless. Two cents… if there is curiosity, point it toward the non-experience of no mind meditatively. 🙂

 

[fopylo]

@Phil

36 minutes ago, Phil said:

At first thoughts come & go more fluidly, and great to hear of that experience. 👊🏼

With practice, there are no arising thoughts. By practice, most fundamentally I mean attention on feeling breathing in the stomach. The mind so to speak actually does completely quiet. With more practice, formal seated or just through out the day, the activity of thought can be ‘turned on’ and ‘turned off’ ‘at will’. This has been verified with EEG’s

Sounds very interesting. How can you experience life with no thoughts? Damn!

 

37 minutes ago, Phil said:

If it’s helpful or useful… thoughts don’t answer the how and why of direct experience / reality. That that is accurate, is actually the believing of thoughts, about thoughts. Similarly, thoughts also don’t ‘give form’ to anything, form is a thought. Of course, you may find otherwise in your direct experience.

But thoughts do help me understand what you mean by 'feeling', 'averting', 'want', 'freedom', 'emotion' - you explain those concepts to me and then it is easier for me (once I know this lingo) to translate my experience better and be like "ah ha! Now I know what he meant by____".

By "give form" I mean representation (thought) of how something is believed to be.

42 minutes ago, Phil said:

Yes, the question was understood. Was the answer? If ‘you’ is used only for communication purposes, then awareness is aware and there is no Phil. I can not earnestly pick a picture which represents my experience or experience because there is no such thing as experience or anything which is mine.  Might not be a desirable answer, but it is the honest answer nonetheless. Two cents… if there is curiosity, point it toward the non-experience of no mind meditatively. 🙂

Question understood... Yet for some reason no answer? Fine, if you're being honest then whatever, but just saying that you asked me this exact question with the anticipation of me answering you with something like "pic 2", "probably pic 3". I get that you must be at pic 8 or above since you clearly see in your moment to moment experience how 'you' and 'me' are constructs (I am not aware of that, and don't tell me that there's no 'I' to be aware, there is an experiential gap between us).

Are you at pic 10? (Is pic 10 your experience)

Am I at pic 3? Answer: Yes, at least I believe so

[Lotus]

8 hours ago, fopylo said:

I don't know/see

 

18 hours ago, Lotus said:

Contemplation, introspection & emptying

Not seeing is okay, the untangling of beliefs is step by step. You can certainly overdo it and disconnect from the present moment, but questioning & feeling within will give you all the answers. The confusion arises primarily from identification. Not believing + questioning thoughts is the first step. The 'seeing' occurs, when thoughts are no longer believed and the mind becomes relaxed. Within this quietude, clarity can arise.

[nurthur11]

On 5/12/2022 at 12:39 AM, fopylo said:

You say a few times that once you release the 'becoming a leader' and don't try to become a leader, then you'll see that the truth is that you're already the leader, but it just doesn't seem right/to make sense for me. Do you say we are all natural born leaders? This simply isn't the case in our society. And if everyone were to be leaders then a leader won't mean anything.

 

He is actually super correct here. The truth is that we all are natural born leaders, some just are harder workers, talented, more driven and so on. Having "leader trait's" it is not something you work on consciously. You need to realize that you are the leader of yourself, experientially. 

[Phil]

13 hours ago, fopylo said:

How can you experience life with no thoughts? Damn!

By daily morning meditation. Then it was ‘seen’, as if a tour, that it is by being life & thoughts; by being two spheres. 

 

13 hours ago, fopylo said:

But thoughts do help me understand what you mean by 'feeling', 'averting', 'want', 'freedom', 'emotion' - you explain those concepts to me and then it is easier for me (once I know this lingo) to translate my experience better and be like "ah ha! Now I know what he meant by____".

By "give form" I mean representation (thought) of how something is believed to be.

I totally get that and appreciate you saying that, and am happy to share. (So to speak 😅)

 

Also want to say, please by most mindful not to internalize anything shared in regard to meditation, as to create any expectations of realizations or any notion of any striving to realize anything.  Meditation is an allowing of the mind / thoughts to settle, to calm, and what remains is the clarity which is / was appearing as the thoughts. Then realizations, insights, arise. You could think of exercise or weigh lifting as conditioning / a doing, and meditation as de-conditioning / not-doing. Conditioning adds (muscle) where as de-conditioning subtracts / relinquishes (beliefs). 

 

13 hours ago, fopylo said:

Yet for some reason no answer?

You might say it’s not that there’s no answer, it’s that it turns out I’m the “answer” / the answer therefore can’t be said / shared. ‘Only direct experience will do’ is about as close to a verbal answer as could be. 

 

There is a lot of info in this link, and many dots will likely connect relating to much of what you’ve shared. Specifically, difficulties with sleep, any potential concerns for future experiences, etc, and I hope you like it.  If I was to suggest / recommend one thing / way to go about leadership above all else, it would be daily meditation. (That is not a negation of learning, etc). I admit it sounds utopian, but if everyone on this planet did so daily, heaven on earth would be Realized.  Not created, but realized to already be the actuality. 

Much love & appreciation for you here! Enjoy the day 🙏🏻 🤍

 

[fopylo]

8 hours ago, Phil said:

By daily morning meditation. Then it was ‘seen’, as if a tour, that it is by being life & thoughts; by being two spheres.

@Phil

Oh, so there is still the experience of thoughts but you don't see them as 'thoughts', as something separate from physical reality.

 

8 hours ago, Phil said:

Meditation is an allowing of the mind / thoughts to settle, to calm, and what remains is the clarity which is / was appearing as the thoughts. Then realizations, insights, arise.

I just did a 20 minute meditation of focusing on my breath. Thoughts of 'breath', 'me', 'breather', 'meditator', 'feeler' arise, as well as interpretations of the sensation and images of what I'm trying to focus on. I believe when you say feel you mean to witness the sensation exactly as it is, right? (question). - but it isn't so easy. Anyway, as you said, allowing thoughts to settle, so the more I focus on the feeling of my breath the beliefs of 'body part/areas' starts to melt away, and then when I continue focusing on the feeling of my breath - I am feeling my entire body. Does this make sense to you? (question)

In the middle of the session I decided to do it with eyes open because it felt more relieving and I could better experience feeling without thoughts of 'breath', 'me', 'breather', 'meditator', 'feeler'. But since I didn't experience so many thoughts it got me wonder - the more I feel the less beliefs/thoughts I experience, and that means less conceptualization of feeling... and if there is no conceptualization of feeling... then 'feeling' (as a concept, as an idea) ceases to exist... So my wonder is whether feeling happens naturally as the result of relinquishing beliefs, and is basically acceptance (feeling = acceptance) ?

It's kinda funny, because I could be very engaged in some sport (assuming it is very fun) and not realize that the reason for that fun is because I am focused on feeling; Why? - Because if and when I am having fun I am not thinking about the fact that I'm feeling, otherwise I wouldn't be feeling. So paradoxical omg lol

8 hours ago, Phil said:

You might say it’s not that there’s no answer, it’s that it turns out I’m the “answer” / the answer therefore can’t be said / shared.

Listen, if you were to ask some other user here the same question (What pic are you at?) and he would've told you "pic 10", then what would be your response? The user that says that he's/she's at pic 10 obviously understands greatly the nature of thought and how everything is an illusion and that there are no 'selves', 'other', 'me', 'thought', 'illusion'. There is a reason why pic 10 exists - for communication's purpose man. I might not understand shit, and you probably aren't satisfied with condensing your experience into a description that you feel does a great disservice to what is true to you, and yet I'd still like to hear.

 

9 hours ago, Phil said:

If I was to suggest / recommend one thing / way to go about leadership above all else, it would be daily meditation. (That is not a negation of learning, etc). I admit it sounds utopian, but if everyone on this planet did so daily, heaven on earth would be Realized.  Not created, but realized to already be the actuality. 

Much love & appreciation for you here! Enjoy the day 🙏🏻 🤍

Remind me how meditation will help me become a leader (and for that matter, anything I wish to become)? Is it because the thought of 'being a leader' feels good? I just don't understand the part of how feeling good means you become a leader, or anything else you wish to become simply by feeling good?

[Phil]

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

Oh, so there is still the experience of thoughts but you don't see them as 'thoughts', as something separate from physical reality.

Not really, but this’ll just keep going round & round. It’s ineffable, incommunicable, and that’s ok. 🙂 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

I believe when you say feel you mean to witness the sensation exactly as it is, right?

Yeah, witness, or even, just feel. Don’t really even need to add the witnessing factor but pretty sure I get what ya mean and yes. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

Does this make sense to you?

Yes, makes perfect sense. I suggest the same… even the thought arising about melting away… allow those thoughts to come and go. It’s not about figuring out, or glimpsing what lies ahead… or understanding or defining… it’s really just about feeling, breathing. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

In the middle of the session I decided to do it with eyes open because it felt more relieving and I could better experience feeling without thoughts of 'breath', 'me', 'breather', 'meditator', 'feeler'. But since I didn't experience so many thoughts it got me wonder - the more I feel the less beliefs/thoughts I experience, and that means less conceptualization of feeling... and if there is no conceptualization of feeling... then 'feeling' (as a concept, as an idea) ceases to exist... So my wonder is whether feeling happens naturally as the result of relinquishing beliefs, and is basically acceptance (feeling = acceptance) ?

Not that those insights aren’t worthwhile, it’s acute inspecting, it’s great - but also, feeling is just feeling. Keep it simple. Even “feeling” is a label which points but doesn’t define. Allow “feeling” to show you some things so to speak. Less thinking about feeling, more allowing, relaxing into it, being more curious than analytical. 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

Listen, if you were to ask some other user here the same question (What pic are you at?) and he would've told you "pic 10", then what would be your response? The user that says that he's/she's at pic 10 obviously understands greatly the nature of thought and how everything is an illusion and that there are no 'selves', 'other', 'me', 'thought', 'illusion'. There is a reason why pic 10 exists - for communication's purpose man. I might not understand shit, and you probably aren't satisfied with condensing your experience into a description that you feel does a great disservice to what is true to you, and yet I'd still like to hear

… and I would like you to hear lol. My answer need not be what you want. Can you be ok with that? 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

Remind me how meditation will help me become a leader (and for that matter, anything I wish to become)? Is it because the thought of 'being a leader' feels good? I just don't understand the part of how feeling good means you become a leader, or anything else you wish to become simply by feeling good?

 Wondering if you read this link / article…? It’s a hell of an answer.  

It’s not just feeling good, it’s clarity, being grounded. It’s having a wide frame of reference from experience. It’s not mentally going into ‘problem’ mode or mindset, when everyone around you is / does. It’s inspiration when those you lead are down & out, empty of motivation, looking to be inspired. It’s knowing often the best solution is to let go of the ‘problem’, to sleep on it and re-approach. It’s having gathered information from great leaders. Having read up & researched. It’s observing acutely, taking in more, seeing more. It’s not getting ahead of yourself or getting in your own way such that you stifle anyone’s efforts or determination. It’s giving credit sincerely, not taking credit or never giving credit. It’s listening to people, and listening to life and listening to Source. It’s receiving the guidance. It’s saying something when the easy thing to do is say nothing. All the while it’s acceptance that it’s undefinable, unquantifiable and ever-changing, and it genuinely, actually really, loving it all. Feeling good is kind of a bottom line, fundamental. If you’re not feeling good, you probably don’t have much to offer in that particular moment. And yet it could rightfully be said, leadership is being in that place, and leading nonetheless. Digging deep, having principles, not taking short cuts - in spite of, in the face of adversity. And it’s the humility that the instant you think you’re a leader, you’re not, you’re an ego. 

 

 

 

 

[fopylo]

@Phil

17 hours ago, Phil said:

Yeah, witness, or even, just feel. Don’t really even need to add the witnessing factor but pretty sure I get what ya mean and yes. 

What is feeling if not a thought about a 'me' that is 'feeling'?

 

17 hours ago, Phil said:

Yes, makes perfect sense. I suggest the same… even the thought arising about melting away… allow those thoughts to come and go. It’s not about figuring out, or glimpsing what lies ahead… or understanding or defining… it’s really just about feeling, breathing. 

Is there really a difference between feeling your breath and feeling beneath your butt?

 

17 hours ago, Phil said:

Allow “feeling” to show you some things so to speak. Less thinking about feeling, more allowing, relaxing into it, being more curious than analytical. 

Yeah but you do agree with me that when the intention is to focus on the feeling of the breath you are thinking more - you intend to focus on the breath and not just be like 'oh fuck meditation, imma just live life' (meaning you decide to focus your attention on your breath instead of letting go of all of that, like in day to day living. Meditation requires more effort than day to day 'regular' living.

 

17 hours ago, Phil said:

… and I would like you to hear lol. My answer need not be what you want. Can you be ok with that?

What would you like me to hear?

I mean, yeah fine no problem but kinda not cool man

17 hours ago, Phil said:

inspiration when those you lead are down & out, empty of motivation, looking to be inspired. It’s knowing often the best solution is to let go of the ‘problem’, to sleep on it and re-approach. It’s having gathered information from great leaders. Having read up & researched. It’s observing acutely, taking in more, seeing more. It’s not getting ahead of yourself or getting in your own way such that you stifle anyone’s efforts or determination. It’s giving credit sincerely, not taking credit or never giving credit. It’s listening to people, and listening to life and listening to Source. It’s receiving the guidance. It’s saying something when the easy thing to do is say nothing. All the while it’s acceptance that it’s undefinable, unquantifiable and ever-changing, and it genuinely, actually really, loving it all. Feeling good is kind of a bottom line, fundamental. If you’re not feeling good, you probably don’t have much to offer in that particular moment. And yet it could rightfully be said, leadership is being in that place, and leading nonetheless. Digging deep, having principles, not taking short cuts - in spite of, in the face of adversity. And it’s the humility that the instant you think you’re a leader, you’re not, you’re an ego

It sounds very different than the way you explained leadership before.

[Phil]

46 minutes ago, fopylo said:

What is feeling if not a thought about a 'me' that is 'feeling'?

This is circular. That has already been discussed. The suggestion here is meditation. 

47 minutes ago, fopylo said:

Is there really a difference between feeling your breath and feeling beneath your butt?

The thoughts. And believing the thoughts. Again, meditation. 

48 minutes ago, fopylo said:

Yeah but you do agree with me that when the intention is to focus on the feeling of the breath you are thinking more -

Wether I agree or not is irrelevant to your direct experience, and so to speak, how you are experiencing. What is being said once more, and has been said many times, is the difference, the answer to that is found only in adopting the practice of meditation. This is more attempting to ‘think feeling’, and is thus, more thoughts. 

48 minutes ago, fopylo said:

you intend to focus on the breath and not just be like 'oh fuck meditation, imma just live life' (meaning you decide to focus your attention on your breath instead of letting go of all of that, like in day to day living. Meditation requires more effort than day to day 'regular' living.

Meditation is not a practice of effort. Again, the example of lifting weights is conditioning the body. Meditation is de-conditioning the mind, if you will. 

52 minutes ago, fopylo said:

What would you like me to hear?

I mean, yeah fine no problem but kinda not cool man

If there is an experience of being triggered, that is (the feeling of the triggering) a superior pointing in comparison to these or any words. That can be inspected, as to why it is triggering, what belief is triggered. By ‘not cool’, I deduce you don’t care for my answer. I suspect jealousy is felt, but I don’t claim to know, only point to inspect, if you are interested. 

55 minutes ago, fopylo said:

It sounds very different than the way you explained leadership before.

And tomorrows answer may very well be different yet again. This might also trigger jealousy, which can also be inspected, honored / acknowledged, understood, and utilized with respect to what is desired. 

[fopylo]

@Phil

16 hours ago, Phil said:

This is circular. That has already been discussed. The suggestion here is meditation. 

Thing is that while meditating I don't know, per se, that I'm feeling, if you get what I'm saying

 

16 hours ago, Phil said:

By ‘not cool’, I deduce you don’t care for my answer. I suspect jealousy is felt, but I don’t claim to know, only point to inspect, if you are interested. 

17 hours ago, fopylo said:

I do kinda care to know, but now I care less as it seems very hard to get an answer from you so I just give up. It's like you ask me "what is you favorite color?" and I reply "Red. What is your favorite color?" And you reply "color is a thought, as well as 'favorite'. What my favorite color is isn't relevant to your experience. Are you cool with that?"

[Phil]

3 hours ago, fopylo said:

Thing is that while meditating I don't know, per se, that I'm feeling, if you get what I'm saying

I do, yes. Meditation is helpful so to speak in realizing that there never is a knowing of what one is feeling. In the not two sense, even helpful and realizing might be going to far.

3 hours ago, fopylo said:

I do kinda care to know, but now I care less as it seems very hard to get an answer from you so I just give up. It's like you ask me "what is you favorite color?" and I reply "Red. What is your favorite color?" And you reply "color is a thought, as well as 'favorite'. What my favorite color is isn't relevant to your experience. Are you cool with that?"

Well, ask me something about playing guitar, parenting, etc. I’ve offered what comes to mind about leadership. Questions about meditation can really only be met with the answer being, to meditate. I can share experiences, how meditation went, but also that’s really not ideal imo because it can so easily be turned into ideas or expectations, which would be adding to a practice of letting go / letting the very thought activity settle. 

[fopylo]

59 minutes ago, Phil said:

Well, ask me something about playing guitar, parenting, etc. I’ve offered what comes to mind about leadership. Questions about meditation can really only be met with the answer being, to meditate. I can share experiences, how meditation went, but also that’s really not ideal imo because it can so easily be turned into ideas or expectations, which would be adding to a practice of letting go / letting the very thought activity settle. 

@Phil

59 minutes ago, Phil said:

Meditation is helpful so to speak in realizing that there never is a knowing of what one is feeling. In the not two sense, even helpful and realizing might be going to far.

Yeah exactly. That is exactly the paradox I am facing now. As I'm meditating and focusing on feeling, I meanwhile try contemplating what is actually going on, but it is confusing, because if there is no thought of "feeling" and no "me feeling" (feeler), then I have no way to know that I'm feeling, you get me? In that case my understanding of feeling must change. Another related thing:

As I've told you already, my first tendency when intending to focus on a certain feeling is to think (so to speak) about (conceptualize) the feeling, body part, and me doing the meditation, and now I understand why - it is because these type of thoughts make the feeling seem more real and I am more focused (not that it is like that for the whole session, but it almost every session starts like that). Today I literally tried to focus (and I wouldn't even really call it 'focus') on relaxing into the direct experience of breathing. I won't say it worked perfectly but I can tell you something for sure - when the session ended I felt a sense of freedom and clarity; not from the meditation, but rather because the 'burden' of the practice ended.

59 minutes ago, Phil said:

Well, ask me something about playing guitar, parenting, etc. I’ve offered what comes to mind about leadership. Questions about meditation can really only be met with the answer being, to meditate. I can share experiences, how meditation went, but also that’s really not ideal imo because it can so easily be turned into ideas or expectations, which would be adding to a practice of letting go / letting the very thought activity settle. 

I didn't ask exactly about meditation but rather the ox herding pics. Never mind, I'll just consider you to have gone through all the path and to realize all those meta things.

Unrelated, just because I'm now curious:

How old is you oldest child? And do you open them up to the things you teach here (like give them these same advices)?

How has running a so called spiritual business affected your relationship with your family?

What kind of music do you play on the guitar, and do you still write songs?

[Orb]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

I do, yes. Meditation is helpful so to speak in realizing that there never is a knowing of what one is feeling. In the not two sense, even helpful and realizing might be going to far.. 

This is true. 

 

In meditation you are in such direct contact with direct experience that instead of knowing what you're feeling you are simply the feeling completely.