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Dealing with Existential Pessimism

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Mandy

Mandy

Posted
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On 12/18/2023 at 2:49 PM, Mandy said:

That would all revolve around a seperate self. Negation of something false is not negativity. 

 

On 12/18/2023 at 3:16 PM, spiritual dreams said:

what do you mean?

 

On 12/18/2023 at 1:22 PM, spiritual dreams said:

 

 

There is also UG Krishamurthi who says shit like this:

 

"People call me an 'enlightened man' — I detest that term — they can't find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I've searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, and I discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn't arise. I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God."

 

"All kinds of things happened to me — I went through that, you see. The physical pain was unbearable — that is why I say you really don't want this. I wish I could give you a glimpse of it, a touch of it — then you wouldn't want to touch this at all. What you are pursuing doesn't exist; it is a myth. You wouldn't want anything to do with this."

Take the self out, and how is it in the least disturbing? 

 

What needs to be fed? 

 

Is it something that you want, something that's parasitic? Maybe a second you? Maybe what's actually disturbing is what's unseen?

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Blessed2

Blessed2

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On 12/18/2023 at 8:22 PM, spiritual dreams said:

I'm still going though my so called kundalini/deconditioning process and I find myself drawn to and compulsively thinking about extremely pessimistic spiritual philosophies. In some ways, it almost feels like I'm attracting these into my life even though I'm actively trying to avoid sprituality.

 

The main thing I have been thinking about is the idea that a lot of buddhists and pessimists have that existence is suffering. In particular 2 articles I read by the same guy on medium which I may have talked about before:

https://medium.com/@rogerthis/lets-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness-fd78a38f3d28

 

https://medium.com/@rogerthis/what-is-suffering-phenomenologically-6afab90a5b4a

This guy is a seemingly acomplished meditator, psychonaut and philosophy student and yet he says things like: 

 

"Starting with the thesis: I contend that those who have attained nirodha samapatti (NS) have a crucially informative insight into the nature of suffering, and a rarefied perspective worthy of serious consideration when it comes to the conversation of consciousness. In the opposite way that someone who has never fallen in love has an important piece missing in their view of what emotions are, someone who has attained to nirodha samapatti may have a piece filled in, where most don’t, about consciousness and the spectrum of valence. That piece being that consciousness (phenomenological subjectivity) is not in fact primary to existence and that any iota of conscious experience brings with it negative valance/suffering."

 

"*To my knowledge, the sense of self (no matter how quaint) always brings some suffering and there is no state more preferable to ego death. Out of all the states of mind I have experienced, there are none which I would want to have forever, except for ego death; and this is not for how pleasurable it is, but because it is the only state that brings 100% freedom from suffering. I cannot subvert this assessment of mine that there is an asymmetry between pleasure and suffering. suffering > pleasure"

 

There is also UG Krishamurthi who says shit like this:

 

"People call me an 'enlightened man' — I detest that term — they can't find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I've searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, and I discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn't arise. I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God."

 

"All kinds of things happened to me — I went through that, you see. The physical pain was unbearable — that is why I say you really don't want this. I wish I could give you a glimpse of it, a touch of it — then you wouldn't want to touch this at all. What you are pursuing doesn't exist; it is a myth. You wouldn't want anything to do with this."

 

Normally these things didn't really bother me but during the kundalini process, I can't stop thinking about these pessimistic things. The problem is that I can't just dismiss these people as wrong or deluded. They seem to be far more advanced than I am. They say a lot of things that I think are true and many people on the spiritual path seem to agree with them.

 

I don't want to say they are wrong just because I don't like what they are saying, that feels like a cope. In fact, the entire religion of buddism seems to agree with this pessimism as the noble truths say that life is suffering.

 

Thinking about this shit makes me incredibly depressed and anxious. The more I try to debate and disprove what they are saying, the more true and real it seems. I can't just not think about it because that also feels like avoiding it. What they are saying is very different to my own insights about consciousness from my own experiences but they seem to have significantly more meditation experience, attainments and insight into the nature of experience than me.

 

How can advanced meditators and people considered enlightened be so pessimistic? Are they right?

 

What if truth was better than you can imagine, and even better still?

 

How good would truth be in that case?

 

 

There must be an effortless way.

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Someone here

Someone here

Posted
Posted
28 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

 

What if truth was better than you can imagine, and even better still?

 

How good would truth be in that case?

 

Ah here we go ..

Listen..do you admit the existence of pain and suffering in the world ?

Truth  is all-inclusive. 

Life is not all rainbows and butterflies...life is also dog shit ..plague ..cancer ..sickness..death .

Truth is not Good . Truth is neutral. It doesn't give a shit about your childish wishes of it being exclusively good .

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Blessed2

Blessed2

Posted
Posted
39 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Ah here we go ..

Listen..do you admit the existence of pain and suffering in the world ?

Truth  is all-inclusive. 

Life is not all rainbows and butterflies...life is also dog shit ..plague ..cancer ..sickness..death .

Truth is not Good . Truth is neutral. It doesn't give a shit about your childish wishes of it being exclusively good .

 

I said "What if...", not "Truth is..."

 

It was a suggestion to open the mind, to take a chance, to snap out of it. A perspective to consider.

 

I suggest you consider it too. See where the idea takes you.

 

 

 

There must be an effortless way.

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Someone here

Someone here

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Blessed2 said:

 

How is "my opinion" relevant here?

Because I'm asking you . I already know Phil's and Mandy's opinion...but from following your threads and posts you seem to be  oscillating between reality being absolutely wonderful to it being hellish nonsense.  So I'm curious as to what view are you currently adopting. 

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Blessed2

Blessed2

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Because I'm asking you . I already know Phil's and Mandy's opinion...but from following your threads and posts you seem to be  oscillating between reality being absolutely wonderful to it being hellish nonsense.  So I'm curious as to what view are you currently adopting. 

 

Honestly, it seems more like you're looking for a target for asserting beliefs, assumptions and intellectual rumination. AKA a debate.

 

There must be an effortless way.

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