Dealing with Existential Pessimism

[Phil]

10 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

I don't really understand

It’s not a matter of any lack, such as understanding.

 

https://community.actualityofbeing.com/forum/29-guests-new-members-suggested-methods/

 

10 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

I guess another way to say it is there is a contraction of energy and an extremely intense aversion to experience.

What is experience… which the claim is there is aversion to?

 

Who or what is the claim on behalf of?

 

Why is pessimism “existential”? 

[Phil]

19 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

I find myself drawn to and compulsively thinking

When you, so to speak, find youSelf - You are not thinking; you’re appearing as thoughts, by being a lens. 

 

19 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

I'm actively trying to avoid sprituality.

Emotions. 

 

19 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

 

The main thing I have been thinking about is the idea that a lot of buddhists and pessimists have that existence is suffering. In particular 2 articles I read by the same guy on medium which I may have talked about before:

Thoughts about a thinker aren’t a thinker. 

 

19 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

https://medium.com/@rogerthis/lets-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness-fd78a38f3d28

 

https://medium.com/@rogerthis/what-is-suffering-phenomenologically-6afab90a5b4a

This guy is a seemingly acomplished meditator, psychonaut and philosophy student and yet he says things like: 

 

"Starting with the thesis: I contend that those who have attained nirodha samapatti (NS) have a crucially informative insight into the nature of suffering, and a rarefied perspective worthy of serious consideration when it comes to the conversation of consciousness. In the opposite way that someone who has never fallen in love has an important piece missing in their view of what emotions are, someone who has attained to nirodha samapatti may have a piece filled in, where most don’t, about consciousness and the spectrum of valence. That piece being that consciousness (phenomenological subjectivity) is not in fact primary to existence and that any iota of conscious experience brings with it negative valance/suffering."

 

"*To my knowledge, the sense of self (no matter how quaint) always brings some suffering and there is no state more preferable to ego death. Out of all the states of mind I have experienced, there are none which I would want to have forever, except for ego death; and this is not for how pleasurable it is, but because it is the only state that brings 100% freedom from suffering. I cannot subvert this assessment of mine that there is an asymmetry between pleasure and suffering. suffering > pleasure"

 

There is also UG Krishamurthi who says shit like this:

 

"People call me an 'enlightened man' — I detest that term — they can't find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I've searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, and I discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn't arise. I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God."

 

"All kinds of things happened to me — I went through that, you see. The physical pain was unbearable — that is why I say you really don't want this. I wish I could give you a glimpse of it, a touch of it — then you wouldn't want to touch this at all. What you are pursuing doesn't exist; it is a myth. You wouldn't want anything to do with this."

 

Normally these things didn't really bother me but during the kundalini process, I can't stop thinking about these pessimistic things.

Bypassing is bypassing. Pessimism is an emotion. 

 

19 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

The problem is that I can't just dismiss these people as wrong or deluded. They seem to be far more advanced than I am. They say a lot of things that I think are true and many people on the spiritual path seem to agree with them.

An idea of yourself isn’t yourself, it’s an idea. Therein there is no actual comparison, and therein no problem. 

There is no individual which is deluded. 

Delusion is that there is an individual. 

 

19 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

 

I don't want to say they are wrong just because I don't like what they are saying, that feels like a cope. In fact, the entire religion of buddism seems to agree with this pessimism as the noble truths say that life is suffering.

Acknowledge pessimism is an emotion, and read the rest of the noble truths. 

 

19 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

 

Thinking about this shit makes me incredibly depressed and anxious.

Acknowledge emotions rather than suppressing with self referential concepts. 

 

19 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

The more I try to debate and disprove what they are saying, the more true and real it seems. I can't just not think about it because that also feels like avoiding it.

There is no thinker, already. 

 

19 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

What they are saying is very different to my own insights about consciousness from my own experiences but they seem to have significantly more meditation experience, attainments and insight into the nature of experience than me.

All thoughts, believed. Beliefs. 

 

19 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

How can advanced meditators and people considered enlightened be so pessimistic? Are they right?

Denial of emotions felt, is projection of emotions. 

 

Wearing green tinted glasses while expecting other than green is silly. 

[spiritual dreams]

6 hours ago, Phil said:

When you, so to speak, find youSelf - You are not thinking; you’re appearing as thoughts, by being a lens. 

This makes sense. My lenses are not in a good state.

 

6 hours ago, Phil said:

Bypassing is bypassing. Pessimism is an emotion. 

what do you mean?

 

6 hours ago, Phil said:

Acknowledge emotions rather than suppressing with self referential concepts. 

Fair enough. This is pretty difficult to do at the moment though.

 

6 hours ago, Phil said:

Denial of emotions felt, is projection of emotions. 

 

Wearing green tinted glasses while expecting other than green is silly. 

I don't understand. can you elaborate on this?

[Phil]

1 hour ago, spiritual dreams said:

This makes sense. My lenses are not in a good state.

Being a lens. Not quite the same as ‘my lens’.

 

1 hour ago, spiritual dreams said:

what do you mean?

“Pessimistic people” is a concept. Pessimism is an emotion. The latter seems like the former, while the former is a conceptual bypassing of the latter. 

 

1 hour ago, spiritual dreams said:

Fair enough. This is pretty difficult to do at the moment though.

It’s not a doing. No effort involved. 

It’s way more difficult to keep a story going than be as is. 

 

1 hour ago, spiritual dreams said:

don't understand. can you elaborate on this?

If pessimism is felt, whether acknowledged or not, all is ‘seen through that color’. It’ll seem like there’s pessimistic people.

[spiritual dreams]

37 minutes ago, Phil said:

If pessimism is felt, whether acknowledged or not, all is ‘seen through that color’. It’ll seem like there’s pessimistic people.

I understand that I am seeing reality through a pessimistic lens but still, saying that pessimistic people don't exist isn't very practical.

 

How would you respond to the quotes I linked?

[Phil]

39 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

I understand that I am seeing reality through a pessimistic lens but still, saying that pessimistic people don't exist isn't very practical.

I suppose it kind of depends on whether depression and anxiety, conceptualizations of emotion, is considered practical in comparison to otherwise naturally occurring inspiration. Aside from practicality though, that people, things or objects are separate and conscious simply isn’t true. So it feels very off. But it doesn’t have to be conceptualized.

 

39 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

 

How would you respond to the quotes I linked?

I already did. Maybe there’s specific questions?

[spiritual dreams]

24 minutes ago, Phil said:

suppose it kind of depends on whether depression and anxiety, conceptualizations of emotion, is considered practical in comparison to otherwise naturally occurring inspiration. Aside from practicality though, that people, things or objects are separate and conscious simply isn’t true. So it feels very off. But it doesn’t have to be conceptualized.

I see, thanks.

 

24 minutes ago, Phil said:

I already did. Maybe there’s specific questions?

how exactly are they wrong? if they are wrong?

[Phil]

@spiritual dreams

How do you mean ‘wrong’ specifically?

Wrong about what?

Wrong in what way?

[spiritual dreams]

@Phil about the nature of experience, enlightenment and suffering.

 

anyhow I know you're trying to point me to something profound but my mind isn't in the right state to play with these word games and pointers. I still dont feel like my question was answered. But if you don't want to, it's fine.

[Phil]

16 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

@Phil about the nature of experience, enlightenment and suffering.

 

anyhow I know you're trying to point me to something profound but my mind isn't in the right state to play with these word games and pointers. I still dont feel like my question was answered. But if you don't want to, it's fine.

You’re saying something’s wrong. I’m asking what. Doesn’t seem that profound. 

[spiritual dreams]

@Phil ok I don't think i'm going to get a clear answer and engaging with this conversation seems to make me feel worse and more confused. Thanks anyways 🙏

[Phil]

10 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

@Phil ok I don't think i'm going to get a clear answer and engaging with this conversation seems to make me feel worse and more confused. Thanks anyways 🙏

The confusion & discord isn’t coming from this conversation. The confusion and discord came from elsewhere to this conversation. I suspect it’s disappointment from being sold lies, not pessimism.  

[spiritual dreams]

@Phil I disagree. There was never any disappointment. What lies were you even referring to? 

 

I asked my original question because I was scared and confused. I've noticed something interesting, Sometimes I feel better and I'm not even thinking about it. I just go back to this conversation thinking there will be closure and then I still get more questions instead fo answers. I'm aware that there is a pessimistic lens. Honestly that lense isn't really there any more. Just a desire for the question to be answered for closures sake.

I'm just wanted an answerto the following question and I'd really appreciate it if you could answer it in a way that doesn't involve me asking me more questions, making me more confused so that I can move on with my life. If you really don't want to then thats fine. 

 

Are these people correct or mistaken about the nature of experience? If they are mistaken, how so? I'd also like your opinion on the articles in general if you want to read them.

 

Thanks

[Phil]

44 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

@Phil I disagree. There was never any disappointment. What lies were you even referring to? 

Presently experienced or not. Emotion isn’t in a past or future. 

 

13 hours ago, spiritual dreams said:

@Phil about the nature of experience, enlightenment and suffering.

 

anyhow I know you're trying to point me to something profound but my mind isn't in the right state to play with these word games and pointers. I still dont feel like my question was answered. But if you don't want to, it's fine.

Mentioning feeling emotions & asking what specifically is found to be wrong with a writing isn’t really that profound, nor is it word games or pointers.

 

Then deflection (“I know you’re…”) and the projection (“my question wasn’t answered, if you don’t want to that’s fine”) ensues as a defense, as not to feel emotion (disappointment). 

 

The lie sold, put in many different ways with many different words as sales pitches, is that you can become enlightened. 

The ‘expense’ of the denial of disappointment is ‘staying at’, doubt.

 

44 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

 

I asked my original question because I was scared and confused.

If the separate self referred to, which is scare & confused, isn’t actually found, it could be questioned, if these thoughts & emotions are experienced on behalf of a separate self which doesn’t actually exist. 

 

44 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

I've noticed something interesting, Sometimes I feel better and I'm not even thinking about it.

“It” is the thought / belief, with which disappointment is felt, but unacknowledged, and so doubt is felt (again). When the belief is inspected, the interpretation changes, and relief & liberation is felt. When disappointment is acknowledged, then overwhelment, frustration, irritation, impatience, are allowed to be acknowledged and so on, ‘all the way back to yourself’… ‘from’… the discord of a belief (and the deflection & projection in defense of the belief). 

 

There is no “thinker” “in time”. Awareness is aware of thoughts & emotions (or not) only presently.

 

44 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

I just go back to this conversation thinking there will be closure and then I still get more questions instead fo answers.

There is no answer, nor non-answer, which results in acknowledging the emotions experienced. 

Likewise there’s nothing wrong with what’s said in the quotes shared. Some delusion, but nothing wrong. 

It’s ‘triggering’… some delusion… and is not triggering someone delusional who does or doesn’t understand something else or is or isn’t right or wrong. 

These are subjective beliefs, not objective ‘facts’. 

 

44 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

I'm aware that there is a pessimistic lens.

That is also a belief. Pessimism isn’t of a pessimistic lens anymore than it’s of pessimistic people. 

Pessimism is an emotion. The lens appears as thoughts. Emotion points to how said thoughts feel, not the lens appearing as the thoughts. 

The lens is unconditional. 

 

 

“Pessimistic lens” is analogous. Not literal. Like ‘rose colored glasses’. 

44 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

Honestly that lense isn't really there any more.

Lens is still appearing, yet not as that thought. 

When ‘it’ does, and ‘it’ will until the belief is questioned, emotion felt, and the interpretation changes.. the same emotion(s) will be experienced. 

Guidance for the thoughts & interpretation. 

 

44 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

Just a desire for the question to be answered for closures sake.

It is because there is no separate self that there is no absolute conclusion. Beliefs aren’t realized to be right or wrong, but are realized to be beliefs. 

Bending the spoon is impossible. Realizing the truth is entirely possible, yet there is no one which realizes. 

Hence the hyphenated term self-realization. 

 

44 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

I'm just wanted an answerto the following question and I'd really appreciate it if you could answer it in a way that doesn't involve me asking me more questions, making me more confused so that I can move on with my life. If you really don't want to then thats fine. 

There already isn’t a me, asking me, questions. That answer may be deemed unsatisfactory, yet there is no ‘deeper’ which stands to be redeemed. The redemption sought is sought on behalf of an already nonexistent, illusory self. 

 

44 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

 

Are these people correct or mistaken about the nature of experience? If they are mistaken, how so? I'd also like your opinion on the articles in general if you want to read them.

 

Thanks

Imo, were I to click on the link provided with the first quote, intuitively, there will be first & foremost, a product offered. Also intuitively, this would not be the case with the second quote. 

 

 

 

[spiritual dreams]

20 minutes ago, Phil said:

There already isn’t a me, asking me, questions. That answer may be deemed unsatisfactory, yet there is no ‘deeper’ which stands to be redeemed. The redemption sought is sought on behalf of an already nonexistent, illusory self. 

 

please no more of this nonduality stuff. There is a time and place and now is not the time. maybe in the future when the kundalini symptoms settle. (and yes i know theres know I, no time, no future not kundalini, etc. etc. ...)

 

23 minutes ago, Phil said:

Imo, were I to click on the link provided with the first quote, intuitively, there will be first & foremost, a product offered. Also intuitively, this would not be the case with the second quote. 

ok, can you elaborate? To be honest the first quote is more what i wanted answers about.

[Phil]

22 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

please no more of this nonduality stuff. There is a time and place and now is not the time. maybe in the future when the kundalini symptoms settle. (and yes i know theres know I, no time, no future not kundalini, etc. etc. ...)

‘Nonduality stuff’ is a dualistic condition. That’d be ‘a second’ (‘stuff’). Terminology wise nonduality is nearly unconditional, with the slight difference being unconditional points to the nature of truth, whereas nonduality only “implies” what isn’t, or, that none of the conditions are actually true. This is also evidenced more directly & intimately by how the conditions feel, or, emotions. 

 

Some confusion might be experienced due to other content about spirituality, nonduality or the true nature, which is an egocentric purporting of spirituality.,

As far as ‘actual’ spirituality being the investigation & discovery as to what is absolutely true under any & all circumstances.

 

22 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

ok, can you elaborate? To be honest the first quote is more what i wanted answers about.

I’m happy to elaborate, but not sure how as to what aspect specifically. Any questions come to mind?

 

 

 

The ”kundalini symptoms” are actually… emotions. 

 

When beliefs are dispelled, nothing is known, there just isn’t the discord / suffering, or scale wise, there isn’t an experience of lower than contentment anymore and it’s clearer or clear there never actually was.

[Someone here]

@Phil

According to non duality teaching you cant really say this person has a problem . Non duality's implications are actualy worse than religious beliefs, really in non duality anything that happens is ok . 

This belief is so toxic it puts you in a nihilist state , worse than nihilism non duality adds a bunch of delusions on top of it : lilke there no you ...etc. 

It puts you into this endless treadmill of convincing yourself that you are NOT a body ..when in fact..it's sooool fucking obvious that you ARE a body of flesh of bones. 

Non duality is a belief and there is no proof to back this up and you cant even explain it properly since its so woo woo.

Thanks 😊 

[Phil]

23 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Phil

According to non duality teaching you cant really say this person has a problem .

Could you do me a solid and quote what you’re referring to… as far as having said ‘this person has a problem’?

 

Also ‘teaching’ would be ‘a second’.

 

23 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Non duality's implications are actualy worse than religious beliefs, really in non duality anything that happens is ok . 

Nonduality just means not two. Implications, anything happening, etc would be ‘a second’. 

 

23 minutes ago, Someone here said:

This belief is so toxic it puts you in a nihilist state , worse than nihilism non duality adds a bunch of delusions on top of it : lilke there no you ...etc. 

States would be a second as well. Infinite isn’t / can’t be “in” anything at all. 

 

23 minutes ago, Someone here said:

It puts you into this endless treadmill of convincing yourself that you are NOT a body ..when in fact..it's sooool fucking obvious that you ARE a body of flesh of bones. 

You are yourself. Body is a thought. Body would be ‘second’. 

 

23 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Non duality is a belief and there is no proof to back this up and you cant even explain it properly since its so woo woo.

Thanks 😊 

A belief would be ‘second’, ‘woo woo’ too. Truth only seems woo woo to the materialist of the materialist’s paradigm, which there isn’t, yet ‘woo woo’ is a deflection & projection in defense of. 🤷‍♂️ ♥️

[spiritual dreams]

22 minutes ago, Phil said:

I’m happy to elaborate, but not sure how as to what aspect specifically. Any questions come to mind?

what aspects of the quotes or full article to you agree or disagree with? The bit about consciousness not being fundamental and any conscious experience bringing about it suffering. and that nirhoda samapatti is the most preferable state.

 

30 minutes ago, Phil said:

‘Nonduality stuff’ is a dualistic condition. That’d be ‘a second’ (‘stuff’). Terminology wise nonduality is nearly unconditional, with the slight difference being unconditional points to the nature of truth, whereas nonduality only “implies” what isn’t, or, that none of the conditions are actually true. This is also evidenced more directly & intimately by how the conditions feel, or, emotions. 

again please without this stuff. The problem is that even if i get a glimpse of that you are saying it does not last long and I go back to despair.

[Alexander]

25 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Phil

According to non duality teaching you cant really say this person has a problem . Non duality's implications are actualy worse than religious beliefs, really in non duality anything that happens is ok . 

This belief is so toxic it puts you in a nihilist state , worse than nihilism non duality adds a bunch of delusions on top of it : lilke there no you ...etc. 

It puts you into this endless treadmill of convincing yourself that you are NOT a body ..when in fact..it's sooool fucking obvious that you ARE a body of flesh of bones. 

Non duality is a belief and there is no proof to back this up and you cant even explain it properly since its so woo woo.

Thanks 😊 

Yeah man that's why I believe this whole Non duality is BS.

I am God dreaming this shit is far superior explanation.