Dealing with Existential Pessimism

[spiritual dreams]

I'm still going though my so called kundalini/deconditioning process and I find myself drawn to and compulsively thinking about extremely pessimistic spiritual philosophies. In some ways, it almost feels like I'm attracting these into my life even though I'm actively trying to avoid sprituality.

 

The main thing I have been thinking about is the idea that a lot of buddhists and pessimists have that existence is suffering. In particular 2 articles I read by the same guy on medium which I may have talked about before:

https://medium.com/@rogerthis/lets-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness-fd78a38f3d28

 

https://medium.com/@rogerthis/what-is-suffering-phenomenologically-6afab90a5b4a

This guy is a seemingly acomplished meditator, psychonaut and philosophy student and yet he says things like: 

 

"Starting with the thesis: I contend that those who have attained nirodha samapatti (NS) have a crucially informative insight into the nature of suffering, and a rarefied perspective worthy of serious consideration when it comes to the conversation of consciousness. In the opposite way that someone who has never fallen in love has an important piece missing in their view of what emotions are, someone who has attained to nirodha samapatti may have a piece filled in, where most don’t, about consciousness and the spectrum of valence. That piece being that consciousness (phenomenological subjectivity) is not in fact primary to existence and that any iota of conscious experience brings with it negative valance/suffering."

 

"*To my knowledge, the sense of self (no matter how quaint) always brings some suffering and there is no state more preferable to ego death. Out of all the states of mind I have experienced, there are none which I would want to have forever, except for ego death; and this is not for how pleasurable it is, but because it is the only state that brings 100% freedom from suffering. I cannot subvert this assessment of mine that there is an asymmetry between pleasure and suffering. suffering > pleasure"

 

There is also UG Krishamurthi who says shit like this:

 

"People call me an 'enlightened man' — I detest that term — they can't find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I've searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, and I discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn't arise. I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God."

 

"All kinds of things happened to me — I went through that, you see. The physical pain was unbearable — that is why I say you really don't want this. I wish I could give you a glimpse of it, a touch of it — then you wouldn't want to touch this at all. What you are pursuing doesn't exist; it is a myth. You wouldn't want anything to do with this."

 

Normally these things didn't really bother me but during the kundalini process, I can't stop thinking about these pessimistic things. The problem is that I can't just dismiss these people as wrong or deluded. They seem to be far more advanced than I am. They say a lot of things that I think are true and many people on the spiritual path seem to agree with them.

 

I don't want to say they are wrong just because I don't like what they are saying, that feels like a cope. In fact, the entire religion of buddism seems to agree with this pessimism as the noble truths say that life is suffering.

 

Thinking about this shit makes me incredibly depressed and anxious. The more I try to debate and disprove what they are saying, the more true and real it seems. I can't just not think about it because that also feels like avoiding it. What they are saying is very different to my own insights about consciousness from my own experiences but they seem to have significantly more meditation experience, attainments and insight into the nature of experience than me.

 

How can advanced meditators and people considered enlightened be so pessimistic? Are they right?

[Phil]

@spiritual dreams

Pessimism is an emotion.

What specific thought or thoughts feel pessimistic?

[spiritual dreams]

6 minutes ago, Phil said:

@spiritual dreams

Pessimism is an emotion.

What specific thought or thoughts feel pessimistic?

"What if these people are right and existence and consciousness is fundamentally negative and is suffering."

"What if all my understanding is wrong and this person is right." 

(When positive emotions arise) "What if these emotions are actually negative and I am just deluded?" (The emotions thenactually become negative which makes it worse) 

[Mandy]

That would all revolve around a seperate self. Negation of something false is not negativity. 

[Phil]

@spiritual dreams

What is conscious of these thoughts?

 

[spiritual dreams]

2 minutes ago, Phil said:

@spiritual dreams

What is conscious of these thoughts?

 

this feels like a trick question... But awareness

[Phil]

@spiritual dreams

It’s not meant to be a trick question. 

 

Awareness is aware of thoughts, and consciousness is conscious of thoughts - are just two ways of saying the exact same? Yes?

 

[spiritual dreams]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

@spiritual dreams

It’s not meant to be a trick question. 

 

Awareness is aware of thoughts, and consciousness is conscious of thoughts - are just two ways of saying the exact same? Yes?

 

yep. although I don't think pointing me to this really helps. I use the awareness is aware of thoughts pointer and it does work sometimes but theres always the belief that it could be delusional.

what does this have to do with the question?

[spiritual dreams]

26 minutes ago, Mandy said:

That would all revolve around a seperate self. Negation of something false is not negativity. 

what do you mean?

[Phil]

Just now, spiritual dreams said:

yep. although I don't think pointing me to this really helps. I use the awareness is aware of thoughts pointer and it does work sometimes but theres always the belief that it could be delusional.

what does this have to do with the question?

Is awareness aware of those thoughts?

[spiritual dreams]

@Phil yes

[Phil]

@spiritual dreams

Is awareness/consciousness present-only?

As in never in a past or future?

[spiritual dreams]

@Phil yes

Edited December 18, 2023 by spiritual dreams

[Phil]

@spiritual dreams

And what these people are talking about, is awareness/consciousness, which is present and aware?

[spiritual dreams]

@Phil yes, What are you trying to get at? (sry I'm impatient)

Edited December 18, 2023 by spiritual dreams

[Phil]

@spiritual dreams

Given what ‘these people’ are talking about is awareness… aware of the very thoughts (which they are expressing or sharing)… are any of the thoughts ‘these people’ are expressing… about awareness… true?

 

Analogously… 100 people will describe chocolate cake similarly & differently. Would you seek to find out which is right, or eat some chocolate cake?

 

 

Impatience is also an emotion. The thought arises, “I’m impatient”, and believed, seems true. 

 

 

 

[spiritual dreams]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Given what ‘these people’ are talking about is awareness… aware of the very thoughts (which they are expressing or sharing)… are any of the thoughts ‘these people’ are expressing… about awareness… true?

maybe, that's what I'm scared of. There is a lot of suffering in my experience.

 

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Analogously… 100 people will describe chocolate cake similarly & differently. Would you seek to find out which is right, or eat some chocolate cake?

yeah I agree but its like someone has detected the taste of poison in the chocolate cake I guess. How is it that advanced meditators can be so pessimistic? Whether I take it as true or not it sows the seeds of doubt in my mind.

[Phil]

41 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

maybe, that's what I'm scared of. There is a lot of suffering in my experience.

Where is the one that is scared or separate of experience?

 

41 minutes ago, spiritual dreams said:

yeah I agree but its like someone has detected the taste of poison in the chocolate cake I guess. How is it that advanced meditators can be so pessimistic? Whether I take it as true or not it sows the seeds of doubt in my mind.

How advanced meditators can be so pessimistic is like how advanced leprechauns can be so jealous. Without the jealous leprechauns, there’s pretty much just the jealousy. Statistically only 2 - 6.25% of the population meditates. Approximately 97% of the earth’s population prefer to listen to leprechauns, or, here-say over eating chocolate cake. 

 

 

[spiritual dreams]

8 minutes ago, Phil said:

How advanced meditators can be so pessimistic is like how advanced leprechauns can be so jealous. Without the jealous leprechauns, there’s pretty much just the jealousy. Statistically only 2 - 6.25% of the population meditates. Approximately 97% of the earth’s population prefer to listen to leprechauns, or, here-say over eating chocolate cake. 

 

I don't really understand

[spiritual dreams]

9 minutes ago, Phil said:

Where is the one that is scared or separate of experience?

 

I guess another way to say it is there is a contraction of energy and an extremely intense aversion to experience.