Do we have free will ?

[nurthur11]

1 hour ago, BlendingInfinite said:

If everybody had free will, everybody could levitate with his body immediately if he wants to.

Wut?

[nurthur11]

6 hours ago, Someone here said:

Nothing is not. Even if it were, it would not be thinkable. Even if it were thinkable, it would not be sayable. Only being is, and is thinkable and sayable. If you think or say nothing, you actually think and say something, then not nothing as such but something you have named "nothing".

 I'm not sure If I'm confusing "nothing " with "non-existence " though.  The latter is certainly impossible. 

You are saying nothing exist as a word but not nothing and non existence doesn't? Does this mean the word nothing exist? The same way you know that the word nothing exist then you know you and life around you exist - do something to this life, grow some flowers or build a boat. You know.

[Phil]

9 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Phil i guess unconditional love is the Love that transcends ALL form.

Awesome. 🙂

If interested, watch the video again now that the condition has been spotted (form). 

See if that thought can be experienced consciously, or, in accordance with direct experience… as a thought. 

 

9 hours ago, Someone here said:

….but we know it not, because we (many of us) are still stuck in the utilitarian form of romantic or familial love, that as I stated, is beset by desires.

Again, only if interested, that thought (we know it not) can be questioned / inspected for direct experience. Is there an experience of ‘we know’ or ‘we don’t know’?

Same for the thoughts about love being a plurality, or, separate loves, or beset by anything.  

See if these thoughts can be experienced as, thoughts. Maybe even more so - see if these thoughts can be experienced as anything other than thoughts. 

9 hours ago, Someone here said:

 

But to Love, simply because they are a living being, who like us, just wants to be happy, feel secure and at peace, and once found, we then seek to make for its expansion.

So within the limited version of love, the idea of “loving" a murderer, rapist or someone who has done terrible things to us personally, is usually the first idea that pops into ones mind, of someone who is beyond deserving our love, so makes unconditionality seemingly not possible.

So we can't love unconditionally and survive. In order to survive you have to not love eating poison .

 

Definitely not suggesting you love a murderer, rapist, etc, or eat poison. 😳

[nurthur11]

@Someone here<3

[Phil]

On 8/19/2022 at 9:45 AM, Someone here said:

@PhilI need some help understanding something . I know we had this conversation about free will numerous times in the past but I just can't get it out of my head.

Where is that past?

 

On 8/19/2022 at 9:45 AM, Someone here said:

The more I think about it ..the more its obvious to me that I'm not in control of my life .

Where is that thinker?

 

On 8/19/2022 at 9:45 AM, Someone here said:

I wanna discuss the concept of free will and choice.  Do we have free will ?

Where is that we?

 

On 8/19/2022 at 9:45 AM, Someone here said:

I'm not gonna start citing the scientific studies that were done in the last century that shows that the brain takes a decision 10 millisecond before your conscious decision.  So for example..I decided to take a cigarette..putting it into my mouth and smoke .what happened here ?the brain decides before I have the thought of smoking and then it appears that I made the decision consciously .while in fact it was completely inevitable.

Where is that decision?

 

On 8/19/2022 at 9:45 AM, Someone here said:

 

Let's try this simple experiment:

 

Get a piece of paper and pen, and write down the first movie that comes to mind, no deliberation.

Notice how the content of whatever movie it was, was completely unanticipated and random? It just happened, perhaps it was related to a recent memory, or experience you had today. Notice how that was also out of control.

Where is that control?

 

On 8/19/2022 at 9:45 AM, Someone here said:

Now extend the realization of this experience of happening, of thinking of a movie, to your entire existence.

Free will ain't there. It's all just pure happening.

Any insights on the subject appreciated 🙏. 

Where is the you to whom existence belongs?

 

🤔

[Blessed2]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:38 PM, Someone here said:

All events must either be caused or uncaused, these are the only logical possibilities

 

Is "a cause" a premise or a conclusion?

 

Or is it a thought/belief? Just something you kinda assume to be some thing some where?

 

Really, take a look. What do you mean by "a cause"? 

 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Where is that past?

It doesn't exist. All we have is memories. But memories are not the past .they are thoughts occurring now . That's from the absolute perspective.  But I think you are intelligent enough and flexible enough to accept talking on the relative level.  Because you don't act from the absolute perspective about time when it's time to go to your job  for instance. 

there is no past. After all, that’s what “past” means .. it’s gone. Yes, we have memories, but however useful for doing things, our memories are only that. They are not the past. There is no past.

Similarly, there is no future. By definition, it has not yet arrived. We have our fantasies, which are projections of our memories, but fantasies are not the future. So, there is no future.

That leaves us with now. How short (in time) is “now?” Well, it’s pretty darned short. It’s gotta be shorter than a second, because the first part of the second is already gone before we get to the end of it. So, if we cut it in half, and then cut that in half, and keep doing this until the cows come home, we’ll still be snipping away at that little bit of time.

Here’s the truth: “Now” is so small that it is not only unmeasurable, it is analogous to a “point” in space. It has no duration. But you are failing to grasp the obvious. Imo.

We live in the present always ..but within the present there is a construction of past and future. Which don't really exist. But they serve a function in survival. That's why the concepts of past and future exist .

 

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Where is that thinker?

Yep .exactly. there is no thinker of thoughts. Thoughts just arise in consciousness. Which means there is no free will .

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Where is that we?

Same answer as above .

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Where is that decision?

Exactly. There is no decisions. It's all just pure happening.  It's the spontaneous flow of events .then comes the illusion of the separate self (the separate doer ) and takes responsibility for the decisions. 

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Where is that control?

Yeah there is no control obviously  .

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Where is the you to whom existence belongs?

I define myself by the awareness of the boundaries of my skin .so I'm this human being right here .it's false to claim no existence to oneself absolutely. 

We exist .but not as separate selves. But as awareness of human identity. 

1 hour ago, Blessed2 said:

 

Is "a cause" a premise or a conclusion?

 

Or is it a thought/belief? Just something you kinda assume to be some thing some where?

 

Really, take a look. What do you mean by "a cause"? 

 

What I mean by a cause is pretty obvious and clear . It's something which is responsible for  pushing the stream  of events from event (A) to event (B). And since everything is caused by previous causes ..how can there be free will ? "Free" from what exactly?  Of course from the chain of cause and effect .but how can that be?  Can you explain it to me ?

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Here’s the truth: “Now” is so small that it is not only unmeasurable, it is analogous to a “point” in space. It has no duration. But you are failing to grasp the obvious. Imo.

Actually it sounds like we’re on the same page.  It is obvious there isn’t time. 

Then there’s the ‘point’ in ‘space’. 🤔 

 

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Exactly. There is no decisions. It's all just pure happening.  It's the spontaneous flow of events .then comes the illusion of the separate self (the separate doer ) and takes responsibility for the decisions. 

Exactly. 

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

it's false to claim no existence to oneself absolutely. 

Nice. Same as saying it’s true to claim existence to oneself absolutely. 👍🏻 

[Blessed2]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

What I mean by a cause is pretty obvious and clear .

 

It is not at all obvious and clear. Look directly into what the thought "a cause" is 'made of'. I dare to say it's not at all some fixed 'thing' or 'object'. More like assumption and imagination.

 

Are you sure your "a cause" the same thing as my and everyone elses "a cause"?

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Actually it sounds like we’re on the same page.  It is obvious there isn’t time. 

Then there’s the ‘point’ in ‘space’. 🤔 

What I meant is that you can't measure the present moment. It has no dimensions. No duration. Its literally nothing. Just like how a mathematical point In space has no length and no breadth. It's a zero.

 

 I like what Alan Watts said :

"There is only this now. It does not come from anywhere, it is not going anywhere. It is not permanent, but it is not impermanent. Though moving, it is always still. When we try to catch hold of it, it seems to run away, and yet it is always here and there is no escape from it."

Edited August 24, 2022 by Someone here

[Someone here]

35 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

 

It is not at all obvious and clear. Look directly into what the thought "a cause" is 'made of'. I dare to say it's not at all some fixed 'thing' or 'object'. More like assumption and imagination.

 

Are you sure your "a cause" the same thing as my and everyone elses "a cause"?

I always see things from a practical view. I don’t think you can knock on wood and say it is just a thought. It is a physical object

Do thoughts think themselves?

If everything is a thought, then everything must include the thought that ‘everything is a thought’.

If this is the case, then there is no such thing as falsity. Invisible Pink Unicorns exist because they create themselves. Everything is true, because everything is a thought that can think of itself

What then would you call those great rules of nature, the totality of which I’m sure none of us have knowledge enough to form as even an abstract thought. They govern the world that each of us perceives, and though our perceptions might differ these rules surely exist on a level greater than merely human thought.  Cause and effect lies within this category 

[Aware Wolf]

57 minutes ago, Someone here said:

What I meant is that you can't measure the present moment. It has no dimensions. No duration. Its literally nothing. Just like how a mathematical point In space has no length and no breadth. It's a zero.

 

 I like what Alan Watts said :

"There is only this now. It does not come from anywhere, it is not going anywhere. It is not permanent, but it is not impermanent. Though moving, it is always still. When we try to catch hold of it, it seems to run away, and yet it is always here and there is no escape from it."

 

My POV is there is no Now. "Now" . I dont understand the people who think there is. It seems obvious (to me) its a delusion too. 

 

 

[Aware Wolf]

44 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I always see things from a practical view. I don’t think you can knock on wood and say it is just a thought. It is a physical object

 

Again, I think its going too far. The table may be more than just a mere thought, but it's going too far and its a delusion reifying objects as physical or special. What is a physical object? Maybe you're dreaming it all. Have you ever had a dream you thought was real? How do you know? You say you can knock on wood to verify it -- but that knock is just a memory. Your senses are telling you something but your senses lie to you all the time. Even Science says the wood is atoms and atoms are mostly blank space and energy.

 

 

[Aware Wolf]

Is cause and effect still viable?

 

What causes malaria? Answer: A mosquito

 

But is this true?

 

It's not all mosquitoes but the female Anopheles mosquito that causes malaria.

 

And it's not actually the mosquito but a virus the mosquito carries. 

 

The virus must be transmitted into the body by the bite of the mosquito. No bite , no malaria. Also the body has to be overwhelmed by the virus for malaria to occur. 

 

So what actually causes malaria? MALARIA

 

Consider a very simple linear  problem. What causes a bowling pin to fall down? It's hit by a bowling ball? Certainly that has to be clear. Nope. Many pins will still stand up. They might wobble but still stand. The pin only falls down once past it's recovery point. So what actually causes a bowling pin to fall ? -- It's falling. 

 

I like the zen koan Baizhang's fox  "Does a enlightened person who practices with great devotion still fall into cause and effect? "

 

 

[Phil]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

What I meant is that you can't measure the present moment

Totally with ya.  Even ‘present moment’ can go.  But then, what is the actuality that term points to? Like, “it” still is. So….?
Once “that’s” known, there’s no question of free will anymore. Matter of fact all there is to experience is then, free will. 
 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Aware Wolf said:

 

My POV is there is no Now. "Now" . I dont understand the people who think there is. It seems obvious (to me) its a delusion too. 

 

 

Of course there is a now . My point is that you can't "catch " it . As soon as this moment begins..it suddenly disappear. 

50 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

 

Again, I think its going too far. The table may be more than just a mere thought, but it's going too far and its a delusion reifying objects as physical or special. What is a physical object? Maybe you're dreaming it all. Have you ever had a dream you thought was real? How do you know? You say you can knock on wood to verify it -- but that knock is just a memory. Your senses are telling you something but your senses lie to you all the time. Even Science says the wood is atoms and atoms are mostly blank space and energy.

 

 

This is simply a guess of yours (a what if..) you can't build certainty around a guess or a possibility. 

39 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

Is cause and effect still viable?

 

What causes malaria? Answer: A mosquito

 

But is this true?

 

It's not all mosquitoes but the female Anopheles mosquito that causes malaria.

 

And it's not actually the mosquito but a virus the mosquito carries. 

 

The virus must be transmitted into the body by the bite of the mosquito. No bite , no malaria. Also the body has to be overwhelmed by the virus for malaria to occur. 

 

So what actually causes malaria? MALARIA

 

Consider a very simple linear  problem. What causes a bowling pin to fall down? It's hit by a bowling ball? Certainly that has to be clear. Nope. Many pins will still stand up. They might wobble but still stand. The pin only falls down once past it's recovery point. So what actually causes a bowling pin to fall ? -- It's falling. 

 

I like the zen koan Baizhang's fox  "Does a enlightened person who practices with great devotion still fall into cause and effect? "

 

 

Dude ,look, you  overcomplicated the issue when it's so simple . Your whole life hinges upon your belief in cause and effect. Why do you drink water?  Because you believe its gonna quench your thirst .why do you eat food?  Because you believe its gonna cause you to be full and satisfy your hunger .etc 

So you are being hypocritical if you deny cause and effect .because how you live life practically completely is  dependent on a notion of cause and effect. 

[Someone here]

10 minutes ago, Phil said:

Totally with ya.  Even ‘present moment’ can go.  But then, what is the actuality that term points to? Like, it still is. So….?

 

The present is the immediate experience of any experiencer. Outside of any particular experience the concept cannot be meaningfully defined. It is precisely what you are experiencing right now .and right now .and right now .its a stream of "nows ".

a now "stretched" as Osho would say .

Notice that every word is itself and not some other word . So defining anything at would be false . The present =the present. Its a complete tautology. Like A=A.

 

[Aware Wolf]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Of course there is a now . My point is that you can't "catch " it . As soon as this moment begins..it suddenly disappear. 

 

Anytime there's a "of course" -- hold unto your wallet. 

 

Tell me what is this "now" you speak of. define it, please. 

 

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

The present is the immediate experience of any experiencer. Outside of any particular experience the concept cannot be meaningfully defined. It is precisely what you are experiencing right now .and right now .and right now .its a stream of "nows ".

a now "stretched" as Osho would say .

Notice that every word is itself and not some other word . So defining anything at would be false . The present =the present. Its a complete tautology. Like A=A.

 

 

 

That's, excuse my language, bullsh*t loaded upon more bullshit. It means nothing. Its like word salad. 

 

Define immediate. define experience. and omg experiencer s. 

 

this stream of nows that you speak of -- is it one right after another ? if so, which one is the present? which one is NOWest Now? Is there a cutoff or no? If there's no cutoff then everything is the Now. past Nows are now Now. Nice. If there is a cutoff how is it determined? Is this minute Now? This second? This billionth of a second? This trillionth? Wait didnt that trillionth of a second already pass? There's sensory processing lag. So arent we actually living in the past, not some "NOW"?? There was a Star Trek Original series where everything was greatly sped for Kirk while time seemed to freeze for the Enterprie and crew. 

 

There's no time. Time is a construct. So there's no present. There's no "immediate" , "experience" is a bullshit word but I"ll point you to that experience is an illusion. Is your experience reality? Always? Illusions are not what they seem, doesnt mean they dont exist. "Experiencer" sounds dualistic. See @Philpointers even on this thread. Find this experiencer. 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

This is simply a guess of yours (a what if..) you can't build certainty around a guess or a possibility. 

 

Ya could be. I usually present with words like "its a POV", "a perspective"  I recommend that you do this. My posts here are often to show people have settled on a POV early and arent considering alternatives. 

 

However I think my post was quite clear even if you didnt like it. "Have you ever had a dream you thought was real?" -- why would you think Im guessing here? Does my question sound like I'm guessing or perhaps I'm trying to have you consider question something? 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Dude ,look, you  overcomplicated the issue when it's so simple . Your whole life hinges upon your belief in cause and effect. Why do you drink water?  Because you believe its gonna quench your thirst .why do you eat food?  Because you believe its gonna cause you to be full and satisfy your hunger .etc 

So you are being hypocritical if you deny cause and effect .because how you live life practically completely is  dependent on a notion of cause and effect. 

 

again, you go too far. did I deny cause and effect? If you think that you failed to read Baizhang's Fox!

 

I hoped to help you consider cause and effect. I liked the Malaria example but it didnt do a  damn thing did it? Why do I drink water?

 

WHY DID THE BOWLING PIN FALL DOWN?

 

Why do you drink water? 

 

I suspect you dont understand my point so Ill spell it out 

Maybe I'm thirsty. But that's vague and what is this "thirst" and who does it happen to? There's a signal sent to drink *something*. Maybe I dont think "it'll quench my thirst"  like you assume (after the drinking of water)--(maybe it won't).  Maybe I don't drink water. There's a choice of beverages here that you are skipping. hmm. Why did I choose water instead something else? I'm not entirely sure. Maybe I drank water in advance of being thirsty because I'm a hydro homie. Maybe its a habit. I fast and I've dry fasted and many days I don't drink anything at all. If being thirsty is the cause to drink water it seems to be a weak one, your example strikes me as a just-so story invented often after the fact to explain it away. If you were honest, you'd have to say you dont know yourself why you drink water much less know why I drank water. 

 

"Why did the Mr. Smith marry Ms Jones?" -- A: "Mr Smith was thirsty/horny."

 

It's sloppy analysis. 

 

Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy traps

 

 

I say this with kindness but you assume too much, write too much and listen too little and reflection is not ongoing. 

 

"Not falling into causation." Why was he turned into a fox? "Not ignoring causation."

Why was he released from the fox body?

If you have an eye to see through this, then you will know that the former head of the monastery did enjoy his five hundred happy blessed lives as a fox.[5]

Not falling, not ignoring:

Odd and even are on one die.
Not ignoring, not falling:

Hundreds and thousands of regrets!

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Aware Wolf

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

The present is the immediate experience of any experiencer. Outside of any particular experience the concept cannot be meaningfully defined. It is precisely what you are experiencing right now .and right now .and right now .its a stream of "nows ".

a now "stretched" as Osho would say .

Notice that every word is itself and not some other word . So defining anything at would be false . The present =the present. Its a complete tautology. Like A=A.

 

Great thread btw. 🙂

If interested, there is now a layering of conditions which can be inspected. ‘The present’, and the defining of the present with duality / twoness, experience & experiencer. Can these three actually be found in ‘direct experience’? (Not referring to the concept or defining, but inspecting for the actuality). Can ‘you are experiencing’ and a ‘stream of nows’ actually be found? 

 

I get ya, the present = the present. But also ‘the present’ is a tense, an implication of there being, tense, like past tense future tense and present tense. While I don’t disagree with the present being a tautology, that is a step away from inspecting what is actual of the present, and toward another layer of conceptualization. Yes, I do get what the word means. I still suggest it conceptualizes and doesn’t uncover. Again though, only if interested. 

 

Also, in the ‘for those with two good ears’ sense… there is conceptualizing, and there is emptying the cup. These are not the same. 

[Faith]

On 8/19/2022 at 9:45 AM, Someone here said:

Do we have free will ?

Hi,

 

In the question of free will what needs inspected is the doer.  Is there a doer or does doing just happen and then the mind claims it is the thinker, feeler, hearer,....essentially the doer of everything. Although it arrived after the fact to claim what happened. 

 

However, as long as there is a "sense of" being the action figure, there will be a sense of free will. Its part of the programming. The two go hand in hand, but that doesn't mean there actually is free will or that you're the action figure either. 

 

I'd say look into who it is that has the question. Do "I" have free will?