Someone here Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 @PhilI need some help understanding something . I know we had this conversation about free will numerous times in the past but I just can't get it out of my head. The more I think about it ..the more its obvious to me that I'm not in control of my life . I wanna discuss the concept of free will and choice. Do we have free will ? I'm not gonna start citing the scientific studies that were done in the last century that shows that the brain takes a decision 10 millisecond before your conscious decision. So for example..I decided to take a cigarette..putting it into my mouth and smoke .what happened here ?the brain decides before I have the thought of smoking and then it appears that I made the decision consciously .while in fact it was completely inevitable. Let's try this simple experiment: Get a piece of paper and pen, and write down the first movie that comes to mind, no deliberation. Notice how the content of whatever movie it was, was completely unanticipated and random? It just happened, perhaps it was related to a recent memory, or experience you had today. Notice how that was also out of control. Now extend the realization of this experience of happening, of thinking of a movie, to your entire existence. Free will ain't there. It's all just pure happening. Any insights on the subject appreciated 🙏. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 Yes, we don't have free will. The universe is deterministic so we are too. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someone here Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 14 minutes ago, Alexander said: Yes, we don't have free will. The universe is deterministic so we are too. I think the alternative is not determinism .but randomness. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Someone here said: I just can't get it out of my head What is that “it” (most specifically, literally) ? Random & deterministic are the same as that “it”. Quote Mention YouTube Website Sessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someone here Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 9 minutes ago, Phil said: What is that “it”? Free will. BTW. You are free to approach this in whichever way you want .I welcome it all. But I would specially appreciate it if you explained to me the errors (if any ) in my line of reasoning in OP. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 6 minutes ago, Someone here said: Free will. BTW. You are free to approach this in whichever way you want .I welcome it all. But I would specially appreciate it if you explained to me the errors (if any ) in my line of reasoning in OP. I am. Apply patience. 🙂 1 hour ago, Someone here said: I just can't get it out of my head. The more I think about it ..the more its obvious to me that I'm not in control of my life . Do you see the conflict… “I can’t get free will out of my head”… and … “I’m not in control of my life”? Is free will (specifically, literally) in your head ? Quote Mention YouTube Website Sessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someone here Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 16 minutes ago, Phil said: Do you see the conflict… “I can’t get free will out of my head”… and … “I’m not in control of my life”? Is free will (specifically, literally) in your head ? Well..free will is a concept or a thought that correspond to something. Just like any other thought .we have the thought .and we have the thing which it represents. Like an apple is a thought. But if you are actually experiencing an apple then it's not a thought anymore .I get that 🍎 doesn't =apple . It's a thought . But with free will it gets extra tricky because we are talking about an abstract concept. So we can get lost down that rabbit hole or approach the issue more directly without beating around the Bush. When you experience a thought ..it just arises in your awareness..you don't literally will it into existence. And that's something you can notice especially when you are meditating. You've got what Buddhists call "the monkey mind " which is simply another way to say that thoughts run rampant in your mind and you can't really control them .all we can do is observe them .become the awareness that is aware of thoughts instead of identifying with thoughts. And by "getting it our of my head " I simply mean that I can't stop thinking about it and it's consequences/implications (free will ,that is ). Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 23 minutes ago, Someone here said: When you experience a thought ..it just arises in your awareness Do you believe there is your awareness (and my awareness)? Likewise, a you which experiences a thought? Quote Mention YouTube Website Sessions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someone here Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 1 minute ago, Phil said: Do you believe there is your awareness (and my awareness)? Well..I would say I'm awareness itself rather than a thing which has awareness. So in relation to my point about thoughts ..they don't seem like they are being willed by awareness .they just arise .I mean you can try it ..close your eyes ..get into meditation and try to think of nothing ..Notice that you can't. Why Is that? You have a video called "there is no thinker of thoughts "if I remember correctly? Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James123 Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 6 minutes ago, Someone here said: Well..I would say I'm awareness itself rather than a thing which has awareness. So in relation to my point about thoughts ..they don't seem like they are being willed by awareness .they just arise .I mean you can try it ..close your eyes ..get into meditation and try to think of nothing ..Notice that you can't. Why Is that? You have a video called "there is no thinker of thoughts "if I remember correctly? Where does it arises? Do you see them, can you feel them? Quote Mention "It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someone here Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 7 minutes ago, James123 said: Where does it arises? Do you see them, can you feel them? No .they are abstract. They have no physical attributes. But they exist nonetheless. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James123 Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 1 minute ago, Someone here said: No .they are abstract. They have no physical attributes. But they exist nonetheless. This is perfect explanation of what belief is, you cant prove, show, explain. However, you just believe no matter what. Quote Mention "It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someone here Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 2 minutes ago, James123 said: This is perfect explanation of what belief is, you cant prove, show, explain. However, you just believe no matter what. Dude ..I can't catch a thought and show it to you as if it were a physical object .but we all think all the time .are you denying that you think ? The only way to find thoughts is to think them .try thinking of a pink elephant. There you go :you just had a thought about a pink elephant. You can't show it to me just like how you can show an actual pink elephant to me because you have wrong expectations about what thoughts are . Physical Objects could be seen ..however thought could only be thunk. Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James123 Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Someone here said: Dude ..I can't catch a thought and show it to you as if it were a physical object .but we all think all the time .are you denying that you think ? The only way to find thoughts is to think them .try thinking of a pink elephant. There you go :you just had a thought about a pink elephant. You can't show it to me just like how you can show an actual pink elephant to me because you have wrong expectations about what thoughts are . Physical Objects could be seen ..however thought could only be thunk. The funniest stuff is even if you so called see a pink elephant, if you dont so called think as “pink elephant “, will be there a pink elephant? Thinking is the biggest illusion. Therefore, there is no such a thing as free will. Edited August 19, 2022 by James123 Quote Mention "It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someone here Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 4 minutes ago, James123 said: Therefore, there is no such a thing as free will. I agree . Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eothasian Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 (edited) Thoughts arise spontaneously, you have no control over it, so there is no free will. Thoughts arise spontaneously, you can't make out a coherent origin or goal, so there is no determinism. The ability that they arise, is not determinism Edited August 19, 2022 by Eothasian Quote Mention Animals are good people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 NOBODY OWNS FREE WILLY. Quote Mention Youtube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eothasian Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Eothasian said: Thoughts arise spontaneously, you have no control over it, so there is no free will. Thoughts arise spontaneously, you can't make out a coherent origin or goal, so there is no determinism. Notice how both of these pointers show limitations. One is the limitation of having "control" the other is the limitation "determinism". Since both are limitations, none can be true. If it's determined - it's limited to what it is determined. If it's in your control - it's limited to your control. Edited August 19, 2022 by Eothasian Quote Mention Animals are good people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someone here Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 53 minutes ago, Eothasian said: Notice how both of these pointers show limitations. One is the limitation of having "control" the other is the limitation "determinism". Since both are limitations, none can be true. If it's determined - it's limited to what it is determined. If it's in your control - it's limited to your control. So it's just random ? Quote Mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eothasian Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 13 minutes ago, Someone here said: So it's just random ? The idea of randomness comes from a position that wants to confine it into tight linearity. Spontaneity from one that enjoys spontaneity. Quote Mention Animals are good people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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