Do we have free will ?

[BlendingInfinite]

On 8/23/2022 at 11:09 PM, nurthur11 said:

Wut?

You don’t understand that oO

[Someone here]

8 hours ago, Phil said:

Great thread btw. 🙂

If interested, there is now a layering of conditions which can be inspected. ‘The present’, and the defining of the present with duality / twoness, experience & experiencer. Can these three actually be found in ‘direct experience’? (Not referring to the concept or defining, but inspecting for the actuality). Can ‘you are experiencing’ and a ‘stream of nows’ actually be found? 

 

I get ya, the present = the present. But also ‘the present’ is a tense, an implication of there being, tense, like past tense future tense and present tense. While I don’t disagree with the present being a tautology, that is a step away from inspecting what is actual of the present, and toward another layer of conceptualization. Yes, I do get what the word means. I still suggest it conceptualizes and doesn’t uncover. Again though, only if interested. 

 

Also, in the ‘for those with two good ears’ sense… there is conceptualizing, and there is emptying the cup. These are not the same. 

 You are partially correct.  And like I said..ultimately its impossible to define the present.  And really it's impossible to define anything.

The present is eternal, or more precisely 'timeless'.

Consciousness is timeless.

Time is a concept. It is made apparent through the rise and fall of sensations in Consciousness... as the idea of time is associated with the sensory image.

Notice that colours appear in the visual field (this Seeing).

Now look at a clock.

Notice the hand apparently moving around the clock face. It is this apparent movement combined with the idea of 'units of time' that is experienced as 'time passing'.

Now look at a blank wall so that nothing but the wall is visible. Stay very still and silent. Notice nothing changes. How long is the present moment during which nothing appears to change?

Now move a hand into view across the visual field from left to right.

The hand appears out of nothing, is apparent, and disappears into nothing.

The apparent hand is a composite of colours and feelings associated with the idea of 'my hand'. These colours, feeling and idea of my moving hand all appear in Consciousness... now.

Before the hand appears, Consciousness is present. As the hand appears, Consciousness is present. After the hand has disappeared from view, Consciousness remains as it ever is.

It alone is.

The present is ever now. Ever unchanged.

All change is apparent only.

Present =present. 

If you want a different definition..present =consciousness. 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Someone here

[Someone here]

5 hours ago, Faith said:

Hi,

 

In the question of free will what needs inspected is the doer.  Is there a doer or does doing just happen and then the mind claims it is the thinker, feeler, hearer,....essentially the doer of everything. Although it arrived after the fact to claim what happened. 

 

However, as long as there is a "sense of" being the action figure, there will be a sense of free will. Its part of the programming. The two go hand in hand, but that doesn't mean there actually is free will or that you're the action figure either. 

 

I'd say look into who it is that has the question. Do "I" have free will? 

 

 

 

 

I agree. And I actually made this point a lot in this thread .is that there is no self which can have free will or not . So what are we even talking about lol ?

However as you say..there is apparent self and therefore apparent free will .

Whether we believe in free will or not ..we will be held accountable for our actions. So the implications still the same .

[Faith]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

I agree. And I actually made this point a lot in this thread

Sorry, I didn't read the thread, so I don't know what's been said already. 😅 

 

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

So what are we even talking about lol ?

 

Again, if there's a sense of being an individual with choices, then you have a sense that you have free will, but is there really an individual? A separate self to even have free will? I'd say we (the apparent persons) are puppets and Ishvara/God is the puppet master. 

 

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

Whether we believe in free will or not ..we will be held accountable for our actions. So the implications still the same .

 

Yep, so use your apparent free will wisely, lol. As long as you feel you have free will you must exert it, to reveal the programming. 

[Mandy]

On 8/23/2022 at 11:06 AM, Someone here said:

@Mandy that's the weirdest kind of nothing i ever heard of 😅

 

On a serious note though ..

 Nothing is not. Even if it were, it would not be thinkable. Even if it were thinkable, it would not be sayable. Only being is, and is thinkable and sayable. If you think or say nothing, you actually think and say something, then not nothing as such but something you have named "nothing".

 I'm not sure If I'm confusing "nothing " with "non-existence " though.  The latter is certainly impossible. 

 

16 hours ago, Someone here said:

What I meant is that you can't measure the present moment. It has no dimensions. No duration. Its literally nothing.

 

[Phil]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

You are partially correct

That’s the difference between holding the concepts, and walking the path. 

[Someone here]

@Mandy there is no contradiction.   Everything you are experiencing right now is literally nothing. Can't you see how flimsy and unstable it is ? And just like we deny the past as unreal because its not present in our consciousness..the present will soon be turned into a past. Which makes it also nothing. 

The confusion is between "non-existence " and "nothing ". Reality is nothingness. But this nothingness exists. And non-existence Is impossible. There is only existence.  

The point is ..you cant catch a piece of the present moment in your hands and say "here it is ". It's in a constant state of fleeting .

49 minutes ago, Faith said:

Sorry, I didn't read the thread, so I don't know what's been said already. 😅 

 

 

Again, if there's a sense of being an individual with choices, then you have a sense that you have free will, but is there really an individual? A separate self to even have free will? I'd say we (the apparent persons) are puppets and Ishvara/God is the puppet master. 

 

 

Yep, so use your apparent free will wisely, lol. As long as you feel you have free will you must exert it, to reveal the programming. 

Yeah I agree. Although I would argue that even apparently there is no sense of being in control of my life .and this is especially obvious and clear when it comes to thought processes. Like try to imagine what thought you will have 10 seconds from now...Notice that you can't. Thoughts just arise spontaneously.  The same thing applies to actions ..Although it's not so obvious. We really believe that we are in control of this conversation and our choice of words for example. But actually we don’t. 

But yeah ..at the end of the day we still have responsibilities to show up for .which renders this whole "illusion of free will " notion  obsolete. 

[Mandy]

@Someone here I'm absolutely not saying there's a contradiction. It is kinda odd how hell bent you are on arguing a point, no really caring what the point is, even though you started out asking a question. If you have a pain point, and you want to feel better, and you ask a question, open to what people say, get curious, listen, sit with it. Don't be so quick to tell the person you specifically address to ask in your thread topic "you're half right". 🤷‍♂️ 

 

What is "now" outside of conceptualizing it? Find it right now. Don't be so quick to answer or argue. This is a great discussion, and we all love great discussions, but either you are trolling (yourself), or you're actually curious. 

[Someone here]

@Mandy 

1 minute ago, Mandy said:

@Someone here I'm absolutely not saying there's a contradiction. It is kinda odd how hell bent you are on arguing a point, no really caring what the point is, even though you started out asking a question. If you have a pain point, and you want to feel better, and you ask a question, open to what people say, get curious listen, sit with it. Don't be so quick to tell the person you specifically address in your question "you're half right". 🤷‍♂️ 

 

What is "now" outside of conceptualizing it? Find it right now. Don't be so quick to answer or argue. This is a great discussion, and we all love great discussions, but either you are trolling, or you're actually curious. 

Nah definitely not trolling .and I'm allowing myself to listen and consider other's perspectives.  But when I don't agree with something, I'm gonna point it out . I'm not gonna be goodie-goodie and nice and babysit everyone here . I'm a hardcore truth seeker .and I ask you to respect that.  When I argue a point..it's not just for the sake of arguing ..and it's clear If you actually bothered to read my replies .

About your question..

From a logical standpoint, there is no “now”. The moment we try to grasp a point in time, it has already passed. No thought or experience can happen in the present.

From a spiritual standpoint, I think the human, meat-based experience of “now” is artificial anyway. I don’t believe in any phases of existence past the one we are experiencing, but I think it is very likely that we are far less confined by time and space than we normally realize.

Please take the time to actually understand and grasp my point rather than half-quoting me and telling me a couple of unnesscary lines 😅. 

[Phil]

Nihilism is like doubt in that it’s resolvable but unsolvable. 

[Mandy]

44 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I'm a hardcore truth seeker .and I ask you to respect that. 

That's separate self conceptualization and identification. There's a difference between disrespecting, and being open to seeing that the whole premise is false. 

45 minutes ago, Someone here said:

 

From a logical standpoint, there is no “now”. The moment we try to grasp a point in time, it has already passed. No thought or experience can happen in the present.

From a spiritual standpoint, I think the human, meat-based experience of “now” is artificial anyway. I don’t believe in any phases of existence past the one we are experiencing, but I think it is very likely that we are far less confined by time and space than we normally realize.

So what is now from no standpoint? 

[Someone here]

59 minutes ago, Mandy said:

That's separate self conceptualization and identification. There's a difference between disrespecting, and being open to seeing that the whole premise is false. 

1 hour ago, Mandy said:

what is now from no standpoint

 

What I meant is that sometimes I come off as a hair spilter or mental masturbator (I argue a lot). But believe me thats not my intention at all .like I said I'm a hardcore truth seeker..I identify as that . So I'm trying my best to get the gist out of everyone's thoughts .that's why I try to be proactive sometimes and ask and argue a lot .

1 hour ago, Mandy said:

 

So what is now from no standpoint? 

Nothing. 

[Faith]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

But yeah ..at the end of the day we still have responsibilities to show up for .which renders this whole "illusion of free will " notion  obsolete. 

 

It's holding both prospectives simultaneously...if one wants, if not don't 🤣

[Aware Wolf]

4 hours ago, Mandy said:

@Someone here I'm absolutely not saying there's a contradiction. It is kinda odd how hell bent you are on arguing a point, no really caring what the point is, even though you started out asking a question. If you have a pain point, and you want to feel better, and you ask a question, open to what people say, get curious, listen, sit with it. Don't be so quick to tell the person you specifically address to ask in your thread topic "you're half right". 🤷‍♂️ 

 

What is "now" outside of conceptualizing it? Find it right now. Don't be so quick to answer or argue. This is a great discussion, and we all love great discussions, but either you are trolling (yourself), or you're actually curious. 

 

This.

 

I wrote up a post pointing out similar things. Then immediately after I saw Phil make a post and he's saying the same thing too but he's much nicer. I said  @Someone here too much word bullshit expanding on his TRUTHS. Phil pointed out the conceptualizing, the layers involved.  It amused me to see how Phil said the same thing but with grandmotherly kindness. I loved Mandy's pointers here in this thread -- they were really very good -- but did they hit home? I 

 

Did it do any good ? Nope. I see posts where @Someone here

9 hours ago, Someone here said:

 You are partially correct.  And like I said..ultimately its impossible to define the present.  And really it's impossible to define anything.

The present is eternal, or more precisely 'timeless'.

Consciousness is timeless.

Time is a concept. It is made apparent through the rise and fall of sensations in Consciousness... as the idea of time is associated with the sensory image.

Notice that colours appear in the visual field (this Seeing).

Now look at a clock.

Notice the hand apparently moving around the clock face. It is this apparent movement combined with the idea of 'units of time' that is experienced as 'time passing'.

Now look at a blank wall so that nothing but the wall is visible. Stay very still and silent. Notice nothing changes. How long is the present moment during which nothing appears to change?

Now move a hand into view across the visual field from left to right.

The hand appears out of nothing, is apparent, and disappears into nothing.

The apparent hand is a composite of colours and feelings associated with the idea of 'my hand'. These colours, feeling and idea of my moving hand all appear in Consciousness... now.

Before the hand appears, Consciousness is present. As the hand appears, Consciousness is present. After the hand has disappeared from view, Consciousness remains as it ever is.

It alone is.

The present is ever now. Ever unchanged.

All change is apparent only.

Present =present. 

If you want a different definition..present =consciousness. 

 

 

Good God. I think I threw up a little in my mouth reading that. 

 

Present = Present. Okay, buddy. This is absurd. This is worse than nondual bears. 

 

You've shifted from being a seeker, a questioner to pedantically lecturing on your own views. Which frankly are word salad bullshit. You don't answer questions. If you've got it all figured out, cool, or you're a troll, we're done here I guess. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Aware Wolf

[Aware Wolf]

3 hours ago, Mandy said:

That's separate self conceptualization and identification. There's a difference between disrespecting, and being open to seeing that the whole premise is false. 

So what is now from no standpoint? 

 

I loved this "So what is now from no standpoint?" -- it's short, beautiful, powerful. It's something to ponder. 

[Aware Wolf]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

"So what is now from no standpoint?"

Nothing. 

 

Nope. 

 

 

Now we're at anotherrr layer. What is this nothing? Are we any further along? Is this your Present = Present except you've subsituted Prsent = Nothing ? Have we deluded ourselves into thinking we understand it, that we're actually answering something? 

 

Perhaps @Mandy could be of help here: 

 

5 hours ago, Mandy said:

@Someone here 

 

What is "now" outside of conceptualizing it? Find it right now. Don't be so quick to answer or argue. This is a great discussion, and we all love great discussions, but either you are trolling (yourself), or you're actually curious. 

 

 

 

 

[Someone here]

@Aware Wolf stop annoying me with your nonsense.

Go get wasted .

[Aware Wolf]

2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Aware Wolf stop annoying me with your nonsense.

Go get wasted .

 

 

 

Oh is that the secret to your insights ? getting wasted ?

 

Present = Present ?

 

Or was it FAS ?

 

LOL

 

The Troll appears ! 

 

I wondered why @Mandy, @Phil couldn't make any headway. But sure, I'm away. I'll block you so I don't have to read anymore enlightenment stink. Erp. 

[Aware Wolf]

6 hours ago, Phil said:

That’s the difference between holding the concepts, and walking the path. 

 

Love this. Brilliant. 

[Alexander]

@Aware Wolf simp.