Is "not valuing socializing" a denial?

[Jonas Long]

I've noticed at least several self help and/or spiritual guru types mentioning they choose not to socialize much or all because it's either a "waste of time" "too low consciousness" "not one of their personal values" "it makes you stupid" or some variation of that.  I don't really buy it though, as we are social creatures, even those of us who are "introverts".  Is it a cop out for social awkwardness, anti social tendencies, fear of other people, in the guise of being "spiritual" or "evolved" or whatever the thing being advertised is?  Just  curious about anyone's thoughts. 

[Jonas Long]

Another aspect maybe not being able to tolerate any threats to their own ideologies to the point of not even wanting to hear someone's counter point or different take on anything.  

[Blessed2]

1 minute ago, Jonas Long said:

I've noticed at least several self help and/or spiritual guru types mentioning they choose not to socialize much or all because it's either a "waste of time" "too low consciousness" "not one of their personal values" "it makes you stupid" or some variation of that.

 

Sounds like self-absorbed arrogant bullcrap. So yeah, "denial", or basically aversion, projection etc.

 

There isn't that person who does or doesn't spend time with people.

 

3 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

in the guise of being "spiritual" or "evolved" or whatever the thing being advertised is?

 

Pride, vanity, arrogance and shame / insecurity go hand in hand.

 

 

Relationships and encounters with people is one of the best spiritual "practices" basically. We are mirrors.

[Blessed2]

It sounds like "running away" from yourself really, or the suffering of separate selvery / ego. Whatever there seems to be in "other people" is really something you're placing there.

 

[Jonas Long]

1 minute ago, Blessed2 said:

 

Relationships and encounters with people is one of the best spiritual "practices" basically. We are mirrors.

I think so too.  And I think there is value in exposing yourself to your "triggers" even sometimes, and practice remaining calm and present even then.  Rather than the excuse of "people who disagree are not worth my valuable time".  And sealing yourself off to never have your ideas challenged. 

[Orb]

@Jonas Long definitely. to sprinkle some nondual into this: self and other are one, so connecting with others is like connecting with yourself. 

 

I mean for anyone with personal struggles, spend a couple days hanging out with a community of people, join a community, and see how you feel.

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Jonas Long said:

I've noticed at least several self help and/or spiritual guru types mentioning they choose not to socialize much or all because it's either a "waste of time" "too low consciousness" "not one of their personal values" "it makes you stupid" or some variation of that.  I don't really buy it though, as we are social creatures, even those of us who are "introverts".  Is it a cop out for social awkwardness, anti social tendencies, fear of other people, in the guise of being "spiritual" or "evolved" or whatever the thing being advertised is?  Just  curious about anyone's thoughts. 

Sticking strictly to those specific examples, there is glaringly unrealized integrity, compassion, self-respect, maturity & humility. It’s more indicative of spiritual & emotional bypassing than development or deepening. These are major red flags to consider in regard to teachings of personal development and spirituality, but not in regard to social preferences. One using such verbiage would likely realize these aspects more deeply though through more social experience. Also, it can be very one off. If I’m not mistaken Ramana Maharshi very much preferred solitude, yet as far as I’m aware never spoke in such a bitter, derogatory, dismissive and demeaning manor. That use of language towards socializing seems to paint a picture of harbored resentment for one’s exclusively pursuing self-realization at the expense of socializing. 

 

1 hour ago, Jonas Long said:

Another aspect maybe not being able to tolerate any threats to their own ideologies to the point of not even wanting to hear someone's counter point or different take on anything.  

Maybe. Could also be an upholding or proactive defending of spiritual ego, which given the verbiage used, they themselves might not be aware is playing out. Most well known guru’s ‘here’ aren’t at all well known in the bigger picture, so the chances of them bumping into anyone familiar with their ideologies and taking issue is slim to none. My guess would be it’s more out of concern for one’s idea of oneself not holding up in general social engagements, if in fact there is anything to it beyond just sincere preference. 

[Jonas Long]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

My guess would be it’s more out of concern for one’s idea of oneself not holding up in general social engagements, if in fact there is anything to it beyond just sincere preference. 

but it seems like in the case of sincere preference you are saying there'd be no need to speak out derogatorily or insist on it's superiority as a teaching or as a practice.  right?

[Phil]

@Jonas Long

You make a good point there. I suppose it would be more of a purporting than a teaching. 

[Blessed2]

19 hours ago, Jonas Long said:

I think so too.  And I think there is value in exposing yourself to your "triggers" even sometimes, and practice remaining calm and present even then.

 

Amen. And not only remaining calm and present, but actively seeking to see innocence and lay down grievances.

 

What is "triggering" but judging/blaming?

 

What is judging/blaming but projection?

 

What is projection but sweeping the problem under a rug?

 

 

It's not a random dance of molecules that there is a bunch of different people and difficult encounters with people.

 

"Person" is a projection / appearance of what we think we are.

 

"When you meet anyone, remember it is a holy encounter. As you see him you will see yourself. As you treat him you will treat yourself. As you think of him you will think of yourself. Never forget this, for in him you will find yourself or lose yourself. Whenever two Sons of God meet, they are given another chance at salvation. Do not leave anyone without giving salvation to him and receiving it yourself."

[Phil]

It’s entirely possible that socializing is being experienced, but, socializing which is generally or typically not accepted - socially. Socializing which society doesn’t per se even consider to be, socializing. And therein socializing could be downplayed. This could be very challenging to the holding of values, especially if every encounter is holy, which I would agree is the case. 

 

If we wanted to get more ‘technical’ direct experience wise, the notion that valuing and socializing are denial could be explored. Likewise, wether ‘the human experience’ is also denial. Clearly I’m not saying this is the case, only that it could be explored. 

[Mandy]

I've definitely seen it be used that way, but I don't think it's as simple as that. 

 

I think that often it's an excuse to not love oneself and to not listen to the guidance of negative emotion in response to thoughts about others not understanding or getting you. That's the flip flop of ego, (or the attempt to think oneself) "I'm great", "I'm inappropriate". It can be the emotion of blame, which takes the weight of insecurity of oneself and places it on another. Then protective thoughts about being superior and "this just being the way things are" and thoughts about how "people are" are believed.

 

The other day I was at my kid's cross country race and I felt so awkward in this enormous crowd of people standing around waiting for the kids to finish.  It also felt really awkward to go off by myself but I did it anyway. I walked far up the road and cheered each runner on as they passed by. The smiles and interactions were so rewarding. In the same way I think that solitude or going off by yourself for a while is in the service of more meaningful, intentional interactions. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Orb]

6 hours ago, Phil said:

It’s entirely possible that socializing is being experienced, but, socializing which is generally or typically not accepted - socially. Socializing which society doesn’t per se even consider to be, socializing. And therein socializing could be downplayed. This could be very challenging to the holding of values, especially if every encounter is holy, which I would agree is the case. 

Are you talking about talking to an inanimate object or something? 😅

[Phil]

@Orb

No. 

 

Paradoxically as all get out, its unrealized sovereignty and therein illumination of personality, talent, creativity, etc left on the table - on behalf of both parties. 

 

[Reena]

On 10/13/2023 at 1:51 AM, Jonas Long said:

I've noticed at least several self help and/or spiritual guru types mentioning they choose not to socialize much or all because it's either a "waste of time" "too low consciousness" "not one of their personal values" "it makes you stupid" or some variation of that.  I don't really buy it though, as we are social creatures, even those of us who are "introverts".  Is it a cop out for social awkwardness, anti social tendencies, fear of other people, in the guise of being "spiritual" or "evolved" or whatever the thing being advertised is?  Just  curious about anyone's thoughts. 

How do you know it's a cop out and how do you know it's a guise? 

 

[Reena]

On 10/13/2023 at 1:51 AM, Jonas Long said:

I've noticed at least several self help and/or spiritual guru types mentioning they choose not to socialize much or all because it's either a "waste of time" "too low consciousness" "not one of their personal values" "it makes you stupid" or some variation of that.  I don't really buy it though, as we are social creatures, even those of us who are "introverts".  Is it a cop out for social awkwardness, anti social tendencies, fear of other people, in the guise of being "spiritual" or "evolved" or whatever the thing being advertised is?  Just  curious about anyone's thoughts. 

I'm not sure if you get it, but I have myself dealt multiple times with those phrases you mention like "waste of time," etc etc etc. Often socializing felt massively awkward or a waste of time. I guess spiritual people are adept at knowing consequences, they can map it out, they can see things through and through, they want their lives organized and they are probably hyper logical and that makes them feel uncomfortable in social situations, obviously the level of stupid mind games on social media is enough of a turn off, for a spiritually inclined person this will be like an ordeal. 

Now imagine something like this. Someone plays loud music in your background and you've an affinity for loud sound. You enjoy it often but the person makes it louder and you tell them to lower the volume. Now think of someone who is too sensitive to even slightly higher volumes. They would go nuts in a situation like that. For you it would be something manageable and you don't see that much of a trouble. But for the sensitive person, it's a downright nightmare. I think something like that is happening with spiritually inclined people. 

 

[Jonas Long]

4 minutes ago, Reena said:

I'm not sure if you get it, but I have myself dealt multiple times with those phrases you mention like "waste of time," etc etc etc. Often socializing felt massively awkward or a waste of time. I guess spiritual people are adept at knowing consequences, they can map it out, they can see things through and through, they want their lives organized and they are probably hyper logical and that makes them feel uncomfortable in social situations, obviously the level of stupid mind games on social media is enough of a turn off, for a spiritually inclined person this will be like an ordeal. 

Now imagine something like this. Someone plays loud music in your background and you've an affinity for loud sound. You enjoy it often but the person makes it louder and you tell them to lower the volume. Now think of someone who is too sensitive to even slightly higher volumes. They would go nuts in a situation like that. For you it would be something manageable and you don't see that much of a trouble. But for the sensitive person, it's a downright nightmare. I think something like that is happening with spiritually inclined people. 

 

I dont think "spiritual people" are all logic minded at all, in fact I think many are not.  

[Jonas Long]

14 minutes ago, Reena said:

How do you know it's a cop out and how do you know it's a guise? 

 

I don't.  I'm asking if it is. 

[Reena]

On 10/13/2023 at 1:51 AM, Jonas Long said:

I've noticed at least several self help and/or spiritual guru types mentioning they choose not to socialize much or all because it's either a "waste of time" "too low consciousness" "not one of their personal values" "it makes you stupid" or some variation of that.  I don't really buy it though, as we are social creatures, even those of us who are "introverts".  Is it a cop out for social awkwardness, anti social tendencies, fear of other people, in the guise of being "spiritual" or "evolved" or whatever the thing being advertised is?  Just  curious about anyone's thoughts. 

If I note down all of these phrases and I'm very heavily spiritually inclined, all of these things have happened to me. Like I can go on. 

a "waste of time"  - yes definitely thought this many times. Asked myself if it was worth it even with lowest amounts of socializing I did if it all whenever I did. 

 

"too low consciousness" - yes. This definitely. It felt like I was dealing with "low class." 

 

 

"not one of their personal values"-  yes but not in an absolute sense. I always thought socializing was fun. And yhen when it's not, that's when I began to question if it was really for me. 

 

"it makes you stupid" - in a way if I felt I was wasting my time, yes that does make one feel stupid. 

 

 

[Reena]

1 minute ago, Jonas Long said:

I dont think "spiritual people" are all logic minded at all, in fact I think many are not.  

Why would you think that? What specific example you give to support that they aren't logical?