Is "not valuing socializing" a denial?

[Jonas Long]

5 minutes ago, Mandy said:

You can do what you can about something, which is usually happening on its own and it usually looks a lot like common sense or just listening to your body and what it wants. For example, if you're dehydrated and have a headache, drink water, if you have eye strain, go for a walk outside and get off the computer, etc. Listening to the body and common sense solutions don't occur to someone who is lost in suffering. Someone who starts to feel off because they had nothing to drink all day but a red bull can spiral into intense suffering that seems so much more complicated and existential, that the solution of "go drink a glass of water" seems downright offensive to them. I've never had a headache or stomachache that didn't go away without me forgetting I had it. 🤷‍♀️

Do you agree that isolation, physical isolation from people has devastating consequences?  And that's why they use it in prisons?  

Is self imposed social isolation kind of like starving yourself in a closet when there's a full buffet in the next room, with a sign on the door labeled "fear"?

[Mandy]

8 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

Do you agree that isolation, physical isolation from people has devastating consequences?  And that's why they use it in prisons?  

Is self imposed social isolation kind of like starving yourself in a closet when there's a full buffet in the next room, with a sign on the door labeled "fear"?

I do not support using solitary confinement as punishment or teaching that isolation is superior to being alone whatsoever. I'm only saying that the root of suffering is as it always is, discordant thoughts. 

 

In the case of this conversation it would mean ceasing to make such a big deal out of interactions that they are scary or discordant and therefore there's aversion and avoidance to people in general. Or ceasing to feel as if there anything at all missing when they are alone. BOTH work together as one, as both are just letting go of discordant thoughts about others and their company. The inspiration of what to do (I want to go meet more people, or actually attend my family's Thanksgiving dinner) comes when the thoughts that are perpetuating the freaking out and judgement and spinning the doom wheel of suffering cease. Self judgement and judgement of others carry the very same momentum. Being unaverse to social interaction and total isolation like Island of the Blue Dolphin style is the best of both worlds.

[Jonas Long]

7 minutes ago, Mandy said:

I do not support using solitary confinement as punishment or teaching that isolation is superior to being alone whatsoever. I'm only saying that the root of suffering is as it always is, discordant thoughts. 

 

In the case of this conversation it would mean ceasing to make such a big deal out of interactions that they are scary or discordant and therefore there's aversion and avoidance to people in general. Or ceasing to feel as if there anything at all missing when they are alone. BOTH work together as one, as both are just letting go of discordant thoughts about others and their company. The inspiration of what to do (I want to go meet more people, or actually attend my family's Thanksgiving dinner) comes when the thoughts that are perpetuating the freaking out and judgement and spinning the doom wheel of suffering cease. Self judgement and judgement of others carry the very same momentum. Being unaverse to social interaction and total isolation like Island of the Blue Dolphin style is the best of both worlds.

I agree, but the aversion that's been talked about here is specifically aversion to other people, and justifying this aversion as more spiritual, or whatever.  So how do you address this specific aversion?  By understanding there's no "choice"?  Is there something to be said for "exposure therapy"?

Edited October 18, 2023 by Jonas Long

[Mandy]

9 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

I agree, but the aversion that's been talked about here is specifically aversion to other people, and justifying this aversion as more spiritual, or whatever.  So how do you address this specific aversion?  By understanding there's no "choice"?  Is there something to be said for "exposure therapy"?

By not judging it. It's created by judgement, and judgement cannot heal it. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Thomas_Knight "Knight was largely reluctant to express any inkling of motives or insights gained through his experience, but he did offer, "solitude bestows an increase in something valuable ... my perception. But ... when I applied my increased perception to myself, I lost my identity. There was no audience, no one to perform for ... To put it romantically, I was completely free." 

 

People seek just this in EXTREME instances of self imposed isolation, what they often miss is that that freedom is there unconditionally. 

 

Have you ever gone out in nature by yourself with no electronics or people for just a day or two? Just as Christopher Knight claims, perception seem to pop to the foreground. Intuition is clearer than ever. The point of isolation is to realize that it doesn't really caused by that, it's just the lack of thoughts obscuring. The circumstance is romanticized, whether it is company or lack of it, conditional happiness. 

[Jonas Long]

5 minutes ago, Mandy said:

By not judging it. It's created by judgement, and judgement cannot heal it. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Thomas_Knight "Knight was largely reluctant to express any inkling of motives or insights gained through his experience, but he did offer, "solitude bestows an increase in something valuable ... my perception. But ... when I applied my increased perception to myself, I lost my identity. There was no audience, no one to perform for ... To put it romantically, I was completely free." 

 

People seek just this in EXTREME instanced of self imposed isolation, what they often miss is that that freedom is there unconditionally. 

 

Have you ever gone out in nature by yourself with no electronics or people for just a day or two? Just as Christopher Knight claims, perceptions seems to pop to the foreground. The point of isolation is to realize that it doesn't really, it's just the lack of thoughts. The circumstance is romanticized, whether it is company or lack of it, conditional happiness. 

Yeah, I'm definitely more often alone than with people.  I'm comfortable and happy that way.  I'm not against it.  Except where it becomes neurotic and fearful.  I've spent long periods of time in both extremes.  I didnt get a smartphone until I was 32.  I just think there's a huge benefit in facing your fear, and that you'd grow so much quicker from facing the fear of people than you would insisting on the spiritual justification of avoiding them, when it's actually out of fear, not genuine preference as Phil called it. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Jonas Long

[Mandy]

@Jonas Long Yes but if they aren't opposites already, you could never be able to fear one or the other. I'd definitely suggest exploring that which might be described as facing your fear. 

[Jonas Long]

6 minutes ago, Mandy said:

@Jonas Long Yes but if they aren't opposites already, you could never be able to fear one or the other. I'd definitely suggest exploring that which might be described as facing your fear. 

I have explored it.  I've talked with therapists about it and done things.  I'd advocate the same for someone afraid of being alone and addicted to needing to be around people.  

Understanding that they aren't opposites sometimes requires the action of exploring what the opposite of your comfort zone "seems to be", and then you realize it isn't.  Through the action of exposure, I think, as the most efficient way of addressing it, personally. 

You really only fear "fear" right?  But one way of realizing this is to face the thing that has been labeled "fear", whatever it is.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Jonas Long

[Mandy]

@Jonas Long Awesome, yeah I wasn't necessary meaning to you, just to anyone in general. 

[Jonas Long]

It's like when my cat gets his claw stuck on something, and because it pisses him off to be stuck, his "fight" reflexes stay engaged, making it impossible to retract his claw and free himself.  

Idk.  Maybe it's not like that, maybe that's just something I saw happen just now. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Jonas Long

[Mandy]

@Jonas Long That's really, really good. 

[Reena]

1 hour ago, Jonas Long said:

It's like when my cat gets his claw stuck on something, and because it pisses him off to be stuck, his "fight" reflexes stay engaged, making it impossible to retract his claw and free himself.  

Idk.  Maybe it's not like that, maybe that's just something I saw happen just now. 

I just love your cat. That cat is so cute. 

 

[Jonas Long]

10 minutes ago, Reena said:

I just love your cat. That cat is so cute. 

 

It's true 

[Phil]

21 hours ago, Blessed2 said:

 

What do you mean by this?

Like how a white person in the 1800’s who socializes with black people might have downed played socializing altogether when talking to white people, as white people by & large at that time didn’t include black people in their connotation of society. 

[Reena]

10 hours ago, Jonas Long said:

It's true 

Are you a virgo by any chance? Just guessing. 

 

[Jonas Long]

9 hours ago, Reena said:

Are you a virgo by any chance? Just guessing. 

 

Leo.  Moon in virgo.

[Phil]

Psychedelics might play a role. I’ve seen some ‘teacher’s’ pop up that apparently hold trip experiences as new identity which fundamentally, inadvertently skews ‘their teachings’ as the bias is weaved into the ‘teaching’. That can even lead to believing in solipsism and these biases could kind of stack up, or add up to be not quite seeing reality as it is, and the effects with respect to socializing could take time to untangle and clarify, as they could be in addition to conditioning. Such a ride would certainly clarify conditioning vs karma. 

[Reena]

Just now, Phil said:

Psychedelics might play a role. I’ve seen some ‘teacher’s’ pop up that hold trip experiences as new identity which fundamentally, inadvertently skews ‘their teachings’ as the bias is weaved into the ‘teaching’. That can even lead to believing in solipsism and these biases could kind of stack up, or add up to be not quite seeing reality as it is, and the effects with respect to socially could take time to untangle and clarify. 

I always thought psychedelics made people socialize even more. I guess I was wrong. 

 

[Jonas Long]

7 minutes ago, Reena said:

I always thought psychedelics made people socialize even more. I guess I was wrong. 

 

They do different things to different people.  

[Jonas Long]

10 minutes ago, Phil said:

Psychedelics might play a role. I’ve seen some ‘teacher’s’ pop up that apparently hold trip experiences as new identity which fundamentally, inadvertently skews ‘their teachings’ as the bias is weaved into the ‘teaching’. That can even lead to believing in solipsism and these biases could kind of stack up, or add up to be not quite seeing reality as it is, and the effects with respect to socializing could take time to untangle and clarify, as they could be in addition to conditioning. Such a ride would certainly clarify conditioning vs karma. 

This is what I meant by self isolating to protect threats to your ideology, I think.  The bubble is so fragile that being around other ideologies or opinions or just "normalcy" could burst it.  

[Reena]

2 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

They do different things to different people.  

Could mental illness and underlying mental state play a role too?