The Ten Stages of Genocide

[Jonas Long]

11 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

@Jonas Long

I did not state that trans people should not have rights, nor have I even stated my position on this topic, simply that I find the conflation of criticism to genocide nonsensical.

A genocide of trans or gay people would indeed be nonsensical, because as neither are hereditary, it would accomplish nothing.  A whole new batch would simply pop up in the next generation.  But to really address what @Tarak's real criticism is, and which solution they feel is appropriate, I would need to hear it from him.  But I guess he's taken his toys and gone home.  The most nonsensical sentiment to me in this thread is probably the "cis men and women are actually the ones at risk of genocide because of wokeness" one.  To me, it's fairly understandable to be triggered by any insinuation that trans people shouldn't be or have rights, because they actually are at high risk of being targeted by individuals as well as being systemically oppressed. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Jonas Long

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

@Jonas Long I don’t think Tarak needs to offer a solution in order to have an opinion. If someone like Contrapoints can live their life in that community, acknowledge that this is a complicated multi-faceted discussion, and still not have a solution to her own concerns, then why expect that of someone less immersed in it, or even assume that the current goal of trans activism is the correct solution? Its a complex topic.

 

8 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

A genocide of trans or gay people would indeed be nonsensical, because as neither are hereditary, it would accomplish nothing.  A whole new batch would simply pop up in the next generation 

 

Assuming you are correct, if it isn’t hereditary then the root cause must be either cultural or environmental. If the culture/environment is making people uncomfortable in their own bodies to the point of requiring medical interventions then that sounds like something worth discussing.

[Jonas Long]

4 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

@Jonas Long 

Assuming you are correct, if it isn’t hereditary then the root cause must be either cultural or environmental. If the culture/environment is making people uncomfortable in their own bodies to the point of requiring medical interventions then that sounds like something worth discussing.

By not hereditary, I mean gay or trans parents don't necessarily  create gay or trans children.  I don't believe the root cause is cultural or environmental either, as these have been variables all along while trans and gay people existing has been a constant.  

 

[Jonas Long]

11 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

@Jonas Long I don’t think Tarak needs to offer a solution in order to have an opinion. If someone like Contrapoints can live their life in that community, acknowledge that this is a complicated multi-faceted discussion, and still not have a solution to her own concerns, then why expect that of someone less immersed in it, or even assume that the current goal of trans activism is the correct solution? Its a complex topic.

The way he was talking about it certainly sounded to me as though there is a problem which shouldn't be dealt with in the way it currently is.  I don't know the point of stating something as pointedly as he did without solidly identifying why its a problem and what the solution should be, or at least some small idea of what it could be.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Jonas Long

[Orb]

I think the whole trans thing is pretty cool, but the technology we have now is pretty crude lol. In the future it'll be nice to go into a pod and come out as a hot lady in a matter of seconds. 

 

Also I think progressives are on the right track but go too far by allowing children to transition.

[Jonas Long]

2 minutes ago, Orb said:

 

Also I think progressives are on the right track but go too far by allowing children to transition.

It's 18 and older pretty much everywhere, and also only after a lot of fairly rigorous assessment in regard to mental health, physical well being etc. 

[Reena]

Meanwhile I believe there should be a cap on the current fascist cancel culture, I don't see a huge deal with the current trans movement. We're living in dangerous times. Trans people get a lot of hate and homicide and suicide rates are significantly high in trans communities. I think they have been vilified a lot in public debates. 

People act as though there is some sort of a trans tsunami. They're a fraction of a population and they simply want to thrive and be accepted. Society's intolerance of trans is just as fascinating as it is cringe. 

 

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

26 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

It's 18 and older pretty much everywhere, and also only after a lot of fairly rigorous assessment in regard to mental health, physical well being etc. 

 

There is also well documented “not so fairly rigorous assessment” like at the Tavistock clinc in the UK, which was recently closed down after many of its employees, who are all pro-trans, blew the whistle that protocols were not being followed, that harm was being caused, and that children are indeed being fast tracked onto puberty blockers, hormones, and in a small number of cases surgeries.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Reena]

1 minute ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

 

There is also well documented “not so fairly rigorous assessment” like at the Tavistock clinc in the UK, which was recently closed down after many of its employees, who are all pro-trans, blew the whistle that protocols were not being followed, that harm was being caused, and that children are indeed being fast tracked onto puberty blockers, hormones, and in a small number of cases surgeries.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This could be an exception and or a minority. 

In any case it needs stringent protocols. And more awareness, education and psychotherapy. 

Hormone therapies and all those things aren't going to come without their problems. So teens need to be aware of medical consequences before they take ultimate decisions. 

Also it's better to have an experience of being a trans before jumping in too deep. A cursory experience of being a trans mentally might help to know if it's a mental health issue, identity conflict or a genuine case of gender issue. Some of these problems could be temporary deflection from normal thought patterns or fixations due to social influence. Any individual should seek clarity to rule out social paranoia or temporary hysteria. 

[Jonas Long]

11 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

 

There is also well documented “not so fairly rigorous assessment” like at the Tavistock clinc in the UK, which was recently closed down after many of its employees, who are all pro-trans, blew the whistle that protocols were not being followed, that harm was being caused, and that children are indeed being fast tracked onto puberty blockers, hormones, and in a small number of cases surgeries.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then that's obviously a problem, but it's not indicative of a problem beyond what happened in that particular clinic.  Medical malfeasance is a problem that can apply to anything from cancer treatment to rhinoplasty.  As far as that goes, deal with it on a case by case basis of course. 

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

@Jonas Long of course, but seeing that this was the only gender clinic in the UK, and that there are similar reports from some clinics in the US, then we shouldn’t assume that “a lot of fairly rigorous assessment” is just happening - particularly when the ideology is clearly in favor of the transition of minors. 
 

Anyway my overall point is that this is in no way some simple clean cut debate, with good guys on one side and bigots on the other. It’s incredibly complex, there are valid concerns on both sides and actual people bang in the middle. 
 

I think anyone approaching this topic needs to do so in a very rational and good faith manner. My two cents.

[Jonas Long]

18 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

@Jonas Long of course, but seeing that this was the only gender clinic in the UK, and that there are similar reports from some clinics in the US, then we shouldn’t assume that “a lot of fairly rigorous assessment” is just happening - particularly when the ideology is clearly in favor of the transition of minors. 
 

Anyway my overall point is that this is in no way some simple clean cut debate, with good guys on one side and bigots on the other. It’s incredibly complex, there are valid concerns on both sides and actual people bang in the middle. 
 

I think anyone approaching this topic needs to do so in a very rational and good faith manner. My two cents.

I'm not so sure the "ideology" is how you say it is.  Just on here, I see some allies who are wary of transitioning minors, as am I myself.  Maybe part of the problem is there being only one such clinic in the UK.  Why is that?  Maybe there should be more?  Maybe if it wasn't so demonized we could have very reasonable guidelines that are perfectly well respected, but it's very difficult to have that when it's such a target for hate.  Look at places where sex work is perfectly legal and regulated.  That results in less STDs, less violence against sex workers, less shame around it in general.  

Edited May 10, 2023 by Jonas Long

[Reena]

We need broader guidelines and improvements on the subject of trans that do not involve shame and rejection.

 

[Jonas Long]

@Adeptus Psychonautica I don't think it's that complex.  The particulars of the surgery and hormone therapies should fall within strict ethical regulations, and if the whole thing were more accepted, they naturally would be, like any other legitimate medical treatment.  Clinics that did shady things would have to face the normal consequences that any kind of shady medical clinic would.  

The main social issue is basic human rights simply on the basis of being a human.  Nobody's really worrying their heads about whether everyone who wants a nose job should be able to get one, or what complications might arise, or the potential for doctors who shouldn't really be doing them do them anyway.  If someone wants to change their nose, it's pretty much their own business.  The "concern" over the medical side of things seems more like a cover up for basically transphobia to me. 

I don't see much on the other side besides something to the effect of: born with the body God gave you.  But none of them are making a big stink about people getting tattoos, hair transplants, liposuction, life saving surgeries, lasick.... 

Besides the "born in the body god made you" idea, I see the "theyre trying to convert all the children to be one of them" hysteria, which is extremely ironic since that is exactly the instinct that conversion therapy or "pray the gay away" follows. 

I don't see any concerns brought up in that video or anywhere (from the non trans rights side) to be very legitimate actually.  If you know of one that is feel free to say. 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Jonas Long

[Jonas Long]

6 minutes ago, DMT Elf said:

The women in that video are hardcore level pretending.

It's pretty fucking impossible seeming for a group that is already dehumanized to successfully fight for their basic human rights to be restored to them without any kind of violence, as history has shown. @Mandy did you watch the contrapoints video in this thread? 

[Mandy]

4 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

It's pretty fucking impossible seeming for a group that is already dehumanized to successfully fight for their basic human rights to be restored to them without any kind of violence, as history has shown. 

Right, because women killed so many men in such a monumental bloody massacre over the right to vote, as did homosexuals for the right to marry. 🤔

[Jonas Long]

3 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Right, because women killed so many men in such a monumental bloody massacre over the right to vote, as did homosexuals for the right to marry. 🤔

Watch the video.  Yes, there was violence involved in both of those things. 

Nothing so far has really been accomplished by the methods talked about in that video.  Not to say they couldn't, but they haven't yet. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Jonas Long

[Mandy]

@Jonas Long There's always going to be cases of violence when something on such a large scale is accomplished or overturned, but those things were mostly achieved without causing bodily harm to others. They were mostly achieved through alignment, not through force. Force is the fear based motivation and tool of manipulation, suppression and taking others power of the past. Glorifying it or saying it's necessary completely destroys all good intentions behind any change and is very disempowering. To everyone. 

 

 

 

 

[Jonas Long]

Just now, Mandy said:

@Jonas Long There's always going to be cases of violence when something on such a large scale is accomplished or overturned, but those things were mostly achieved without causing bodily harm to others. They were mostly achieved through alignment, not through force. Force is the fear based motivation and tool of manipulation, suppression and taking others power of the past. Glorifying it or saying it's necessary completely destroys all good intentions behind any change and is very disempowering. To everyone. 

 

 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign#:~:text=The campaign%2C led by key,of direct action and violence.

Sorry, but it's been the case.  

[Mandy]

22 minutes ago, DMT Elf said:

The women in that video are hardcore level pretending.

Anonymous forum user calls out Brene Brown on hardcore level pretending. 🤔