The Ten Stages of Genocide

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

14 hours ago, Jonas Long said:

Transgenderism is not a form of dysmorphia, anorexia is.   He compared them by mistakenly saying both are forms of dysphoria, which is not a mental illness.  Dysmorphia, which anorexia falls under, is. 

 

That is incorrect. Both dysmorphia such as anorexia, and dysphoria as seen in trans cases, are diagnosable conditions under the current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria#section_0

 

Now again Jonas, the point of the anorexia comparison was to highlight the difference between the person, the condition, the ideology surrounding it. I have made this perfectly clear on multiple occasions and you are not unintelligent, so please stop with the bad faith interpretations and reductive arguments. You are jumping between different narratives and wordings in order to justify outrage in what could be a perfectly civil and reasonable conversation.

 

If you want to have the conversation I am happy to do so, and despite your claims to the contrary it clearly IS a complex topic which I think is worth hearing different viewpoints on. We have already agreed that there is valid concern over the situation with minors, that the real life practice of this care is not always happening in an ethical way as seen by the example of the Tavistock clinic (I would recommend you read up on this, its a fascinating lesson in how things can go wrong in this area of care), and that there are concerns raised by trans people themselves like Contrapoints and Buck Angel. These are valid concerns, many of which are coming from the pro-trans side of the debate, and to merely acknowledge them in a good faith way like on this forum them does not equate to genocide or the removal of rights - so stop trying to drag it down into this straw man nonsense.

 

To answer an earlier point you made - Yes trans/gay people (I don't think its appropriate or relevant to combine these two, but you did it) have existed through the ages, but these transition treatments have not,  they are extremely new and experimental. Medical institutions can and do get things VERY WRONG, as we have seen historically numerous times in regard to lobotomies, hysterectomies, and even the recent debacle around the pandemic. So just because a certain treatment is happening does not automatically make it the correct course of action - for some people it will be and for others it won't, and the line between when these cases apply is being manipulated by ideology, politics, economics, and other factors. That's a problem IMO for a situation where the primary driver should be the well being of the individual human.

 

Just to pre-emptively dodge another fallacious assumption - believe it or not I am pro-trans, but that doesn't mean that everything that comes under the trans umbrella gets a free pass. Just as with psychedelics then I think a certain amount of skepticism, fact checking, and critical thinking is warranted, and I think that is lacking in your comments here. 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Adeptus Psychonautica

[Mandy]

10 hours ago, Jonas Long said:

It can be challenging, for me anyway, to remain "civil" during certain conversations.  It's like, if tomorrow my right to take depression medication or your right to have the family you want, were suddenly called in to question and subject to debate instead of just being accepted because they fall within the arbitrary realm of current "norms", it would be a challenge to remain even handed in our dealings with it.  

That said yes, I understand.  You asked me if I could be less harsh and I said I'd be more aware of it, I was tested immediately and failed.  Again, going forward I'll try to be more aware of my harshness. 

I can't move to other states in this country, have another kid and know that I can receive proper medical care regarding any complications that arise in the pregnancy, I could bleed to death in the name of politicians trying medical professional's hands to properly treat pregnancy loss. That's pretty infuriating. I also can't have a baby in this state without totally giving up my career for a few/several years, because there is no need to supply affordable, accessible or ANY WHATSOEVER childcare to parents in any given area. During the time when abortion rights were taken away, the country also showed that it cannot even supply safe baby formula for the babies that are here. Seems that no one batted an eye about the timing of that. I have a neighbor who went to the state house to stay up the entire night long to protest a bill that would guarantee abortion rights in this state, since it's now up to states themselves. I know that she suffered trauma and abuse based on the strict religious upbringing and had many kids within a very short span of time and having one tragically passed away due to apparent neglect on the part of her husband, she ended up raising them on her own entirely. Her trauma, her pain, her loss is voting for her. She has no rights. Should I go tell her what a horrible piece of shit, selfish human she is for attempting to take my rights to lifesaving medical care? Every one of the abortion protestors is the same, they are run on trauma. Many of the proponents too. It's traumatic to believe so strongly in birth and death and the possibility of others having the power to take your power, not just in an apparent matter but the belief that that they can cause you to suffer. 

 

Once you get it's just everyone's unhealed stuff, the chaos it creates becomes less entrancing and the healing/Source of the issue isn't projected out there, there's only one Source and it's you. 

 

By my garden there's a huge rosa multiflora, one of the most invasive, pain in the ass plants. Every year I cut off the shoots, and they grow back throughout the season. I fight with them, the thorns cut and get caught on my clothes and I get tangled up in them. But if I'd take the time to dig the thing up by the roots it wouldn't come right back. 

The separate self is the root. It's buried, it doesn't appear to be the problem, the offshoots appear to be enemy worth battling. We're fighting the wrong thing. 

 

Don't try to "be" nicer, better, etc. Just look for the root and you won't project it, get caught in it. 

 

 

[Mandy]

@DMT Elf Rather than chime in with comments that don't pertain to or contribute to the conversation, please use a journal for that kind of thing, thanks. 

[Jonas Long]

@Mandy just so you know, I get equally fired up about abortion rights and I even did some videos about it on my channel, and I never called anyone a piece of shit in this thread.  But I hear you. 

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

11 minutes ago, DMT Elf said:

Do you even know what awakening is?

 

Sure, its that thing that happens each morning before I get up and go for a piss.

[Mandy]

 

14 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

@Mandy just so you know, I get equally fired up about abortion rights and I even did some videos about it on my channel, and I never called anyone a piece of shit in this thread.  But I hear you. 

I absolutely did not intend to accuse you of calling anyone a piece of shit, I wrote what in the emotions of hatred, blame, anger, revenge what I might want to say about it. It's pointing to the vibration behind them, not the words. Words can't inherently offend, the resonance, feeling, connotation of them is everything. 

 

We can't have a real conversation till I can forget myself enough to recognize where someone else is really coming from. 

[Jonas Long]

7 hours ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

 

That is incorrect. Both dysmorphia such as anorexia, and dysphoria as seen in trans cases, are diagnosable conditions under the current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria#section_0

 

Ok, I guess I'm not sure about that, my references point was this 

https://www.montenido.com/transgender-anorexia-dysphoria-vs-dysmorphia/

as far as the dysphoria/dysmorphia one being a mental illness and one not. 

 

There have always been paraplegics, but the options for prosthetic limbs is relatively new.  Medical procedures are always evolving. 

The medical side of things is it's own separate issue as far as I can see, aside from the conversation about equal human rights.  Transitioning looks different for everybody, some involve surgery and hormones, some don't, so again that's something to be dealt with on a case by case basis and everything about it will naturally improve with more general acceptance.  I never assumed you were anti trans.  I just think the medical concerns can be a smoke screen for complicated feelings around other aspects of general acceptance.  Even to your own unconscious biases around general acceptance. 

The more illegal or difficult to get a medical procedure is, the more shady operations there are going to be.  The harder abortions are to get, the more dangerous they are.  The more accepted, the safer, and best regulated.  

 

So to be clear, I think the medical operations and hormone treatments should be available to individuals over 18, after all of the appropriate mental and physical evaluations.  

Edited May 12, 2023 by Jonas Long

[WhiteOwl]

8 hours ago, DMT Elf said:

None of you deserve me.

You are falling a bit short my friend ❤️You actually get some pretty thought out replies. I enjoyed it atleast. Dont be stubborn

[WhiteOwl]

10 minutes ago, DMT Elf said:

I appreciate the honest feedback, but this is simply misguided and wrong. It only seems this way because of internalized transphobia. ❤️

You really honestly believe so? I dont find thats the case at all. I dont see any transphobia. You can have a mature discussion about the topic without going down that route. From my little personal experience all the trans people that i know and meet seem to have their difficulties, and my guess would be that it was premature to being trans. So it think its beneficial to be able to discuss the topic without being afraid of being cancelled. No topic should be so fragile that you cant even consider it because you are afraid of seeming like you are against it. Its not the case

[WhiteOwl]

4 minutes ago, DMT Elf said:

This actually proves my point. Here’s the key. There’s no DMT Elf if this conversation at all. No one is falling short. This entire conversation is off the wall bonkers. And if there was no transphobia present, we’d all be laughing hysterically.

I think its all love. The arguments you judge as transphobia seems to be trying to help, to “me”. Thats kind of whats being discussed here, or maybe Im wrong.

[WhiteOwl]

I find it difficult to take you seriously due to your recent troll posts.. not sure if your being sincere about transitioning. But if you are, thats great, and i would love to hear your part of the constructive dialogue.. i have not seen it though.. Whats up with not wanting people to have opinions? Sounds wierd. 

What you describe sounds very disturbing, but i didn't see posts here wanting or prescribing for that.

Edited May 12, 2023 by WhiteOwl

[Mandy]

@DMT ElfNo one had truly put themselves in the shoes, yet you accuse Brene Brown of hard core pretending? 

[Jonas Long]

27 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

I find it difficult to take you seriously due to your recent troll posts.. not sure if your being sincere about transitioning. But if you are, thats great, and i would love to hear your part of the constructive dialogue.. i have not seen it though.. Whats up with not wanting people to have opinions? Sounds wierd. 

Idk, does everybody need to have an opinion on everything? 

Actually, having an opinion on the topic is fine, and that's one thing, but having a strong opinion on it and feeling the need to voice it loudly, when it's about something that isn't likely going to have a direct effect on you ever, but does have an intensely dramatic effect on those in question, might not be necessary.  Does everyone need a passionate opinion and to debate and join in the conversation about people who want various body modifications, elective surgery for whatever reason, experimental replacement limbs, etc?  In other words taking what we could consider fairly drastic measures to change their appearance in a way we might not understand, but is not our business and doesn't effect us.  Why is this particular issue everybody's business and everybody's opinion should hold equal weight?  

Edited May 12, 2023 by Jonas Long

[WhiteOwl]

@Jonas LongWhat if the opinion is out of love and trying to make sure people don't make decisions that might later screw their life. I personally know one trans person who had a sexual organ operation (don't know whats it called), and i've heard its being regretted a lot. That hurts me a lot to hear. Must be some of the deepest pain to be honest. For that reason i think its important to discuss if there are other measures to be considered before, self acceptance to name one, lots of other opportunities, before taking those drastic undoable measures. If people want it, full support.. but its not transphobia to care/have opinions about the people concerned.

Edited May 12, 2023 by WhiteOwl

[Jonas Long]

2 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

@Jonas LongWhat if the opinion is out of love and trying to make sure people don't make decisions that might later screw their. 

It's not your "mistake" to make.  Grownups are allowed to make their own decisions, even "wrong" ones. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Jonas Long

[WhiteOwl]

7 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

It's not your "mistake" to make.  Grownups are allowed to make their own designs, even "wrong" ones. 

Such trigger ready defending.. If you continued to read, full support and everyone is allowed to do whatever they want. You wall up against a non-existing argument here. You think you do people a favor by mindlessly accepting anything just because its not your mistake to make. Trans people in this case. I hope it can be helpful otherwise i wouldn't share an opinion. 

[Jonas Long]

10 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

Such trigger ready defending.. If you continued to read, full support and everyone is allowed to do whatever they want. You wall up against a non-existing argument here. You think you do people a favor by mindlessly accepting anything just because its not your mistake to make. Trans people in this case. I hope it can be helpful otherwise i wouldn't share an opinion. 

I only had the response ready because I've heard this all before, and I did read your entire post.  It just seems like an overabundance of "concern" is coming up over this one issue that is not ever going to be directly a part of most peoples experience.  Every elective surgery has its concerns.  That's why the ideal scenario is having it available to individuals over 18 after the appropriate physical and mental evaluations.  If you are really concerned about people transitioning you should be equally concerned with everyone who wants any kind of elective surgery which has risks.  That's being concerned over the specific issue of elective surgery.  Which you're allowed to be.  I'm trying to just make myself clear here, not arguing or accusing you of arguing.  Point counter-point. 

[WhiteOwl]

3 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

It just seems like an overabundance of "concern" is coming up over this one issue that is not ever going to be directly a part of most peoples experience.

So being concerned about something not affecting you directly is wrong? You don't support donating to charity? There is no end to this defending.. You are attached to your opinion and will say anything to defend it apparently.. You talk to some imaginary villain. 

[Jonas Long]

5 minutes ago, WhiteOwl said:

So being concerned about something not affecting you directly is wrong? You don't support donating to charity? There is no end to this defending.. You are attached to your opinion and will say anything to defend it apparently.. You talk to some imaginary villain. 

Read my entire post again.  

You're not a villain, you're fine, relax. 

[WhiteOwl]

3 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

Read my entire post again.  

You're not a villain, you're fine, relax. 

I didn't think i was the imaginary villain.. but he seems to be the one you continue to argue against.. I never saw him or his arguments though.