Forza21

i had the exact same problem, until i saw thoughts like: "i'm frustrated on this meditation!" "i just sit this many hours and nothing happens! This is stupid!" "It's a waste of time!" "I can't be present!" "It's pointless!" "I'm not sure if i'm doing this right..." "I don't know what to do... " "I'm angry!" etc. Those are just thoughts. if a thought appeared, "i'm the king of Scotland" would you believe it? It's the same with "anger" thoughts, they just appear and seem to be about "you". But they are not. It's just pure energy in consciousness, no different from leaf falling. It's tricky because it's in first person. Thoughts already decided what you feel. It already told you that "you are angry right now." It's completely random, and what makes a difference is believing in it vs letting it go. It's also hard because, it seems like those thought-voice is in "your head". But is it really? Where are thoughts? try to find them. Also, it's good to inquire, and being ruthless honest: "What are my expectation from this meditation?" "What do i want to change after i mediate?" Often, "ego" gets angry, when meditation doesn't meet those imaginary expectations. It's a part of this work to let this go. And also... If you are angry/confused right now - just let it be that way. Maybe it's a proper way to see the world right now, from these lenses? See, what it can teach you. All emotions can be your guidance, if you let it.

but who believes in thinking? i'm not being picky, i just can't grasp it still, what's the difference between being conscious of thoughts vs unconscious

For me, meditation when you feel really terrible is most fruitful. it's a wonderful time to inquire, for example : What is suffering? What do i actually feel without thought narrative about it? is this experience good or bad if i don't think about it? What thoughts cause my suffering? What is thought? what you can notice, that suffering melts like ice cub in the sun, when seen through lens of awareness...😄

For me, you can't really work through illusion, when you are not brutally honest with yourself. And lying to others = lying to yourself We all have some masks, acting, plays, and it's all created, to gain something, mostly from others. But the problem is, without authenticity, we can't really know what's real, and under those masks. For example, i'm willing to admit, that i'm an egoistic creature, and most of my life, is oriented towards gaining pleasure/avoiding MY suffering. Even if it comes to helping others, i'm doing it, because it gives me good feeling/other benefits. (mostly.) and not because i'm so good and altruistic. (but i of course want others to think about me that way.) Seeing that, it's really undermining ego mechanism, which runs mostly on lies and deceptions. We just basically learn to know our "enemy" and see it through.😉

Yes, it's either "do nothing" or "self inquiry". If it comes to self inquiry - does it really matter what question do i ask? it seems, that is only "play" for "seeking mind" and it all leads to the same sense of present. The question seems totally irrelevant. The hardest part is all "doubt" thoughts, not so easy to notice 🙂 Or is it a thought... 🤣 haha, yes. Right. It's next identity, of "the one who's addicted to thoughts" therefore, another thought believed.😅 It's weird and very paradoxical. At first, it seems, like there's someone, who goes into a journey towards enlightenment. It's weird, because the one who's observing thoughts is thought itself. So thoughts, somehow, become aware of itself, right? There's not even "a person" who believes/not believes in these thoughts, and yet it really seems that way, due to activity of thoughts. It's only consciousness moving. So there's not even choosing when "do i put" my lens of attention? So "do -nothing" meditation is simply the way it is, and it's what's really happening. But it takes time to click?😅

I meditate daily, for at least 1h a day in the morning. Sometimes, when i have time, up to 2-3h during the whole day. It's either "doing nothing" meditation, or self-inquire. Here i can't stick to one routine. So it's either asking " who am i?" and staying with "i'm sense". Or just watching thoughts and labeling them as "thought"/ let go OR ask "to whom does it thought arise?" and look there, trying to find this "I". Sometimes i inquire on "what is thought?" or "what is sound?", or " what is thought made of?" "who hears this sound?" "Where's the boundary between me/sound?" , "what is sensation?" "etc. I can't really stick to one question for a long time, so i constantly change inquiry questions. I also inquiry a lot during my day. As to expression journaling, it's going good, i constantly try to find hidden beliefs this way. For example, " i'll try to be present" or "i'll observe thoughts from now on..." those are thoughts, which were unnoticed for a very long time. I also see, that there are some very subtle thoughts, as for example, image of my face/body when i talk to someone or even when i mediate. Those are really hard to notice. So i work at this, but this unraveling and addiction to "mind stories" are really strong... Thanks! True, it's been almost 30 years mind identified, so it won't take a day, for sure... 😉

Thoughts are so tricky. "From now on i'm going to present!" - "Oh i'm doing so good being at the moment" " I can't stay present" "I'm going to observe thoughts..." " I have 1000 thoughts !" " I can't find peace" " I need to be here and now to get enlightenment" Thoughts thoughts thoughts, all mind, mind, mind. Mind has tremendous power to pull your attention to thoughts. Does it ever end? Do thoughts become less addictive at times? How?

Lol, it's so strange, i i really heard this billion times, but now i feel it in my "guts" it's amazing! ❤️❤️❤️

I was meditating like always, "watching" thoughts. it's like "i wonder if i see the next thought" "oh it's a thought" <silence> "recent random talk with friend appears" "oh it's a thought" <silence> "it's getting peaceful" "oh it's a thought" <silence> etc. and suddenly it hit me. Who the holy fucking shit, is the one, trying to watch thoughts? are we two? What are thoughts made of? What is thought? Who is the one, watching it? i've heard this inquires million times, obviously, but for the first time it really, really "clicked". Like it really resonated for the first time, it wasn't conceptual at all. Than, it felt as the seemingly "gap" between observer of thought and observed thought closed, and it's all the same stuff it was a tremendous sense of silence and peace, so natural, and enjoyable. As it doesn't make any difference if there is a thought or not, it's the same, empty, knowing space. it's "I". It doesn't matter if it seems like "i'm consciousness of thought" or "in thought stream", it's all the same "knowing". I have no idea if it was awaking or whatever i don't feel any different, and there's no any change at all. Honestly it is so stupid simple, that it feels dumb to even write about it 😄 but for the first time it's not next concept, it was pure experience, and it makes all the difference. ❤️ love.

Excellent pointers. There's wondering - is there a permanent shift into "who you take yourself to be" and there's no more falling into illusion of thoughts/mind identifications? For example, if one's sees that Santa Claus isn't real, there's no more falling into believing this stuff. The same "logic" should be applied into "no self" realization, right? so if one's goes back&forth into believing self-referential thoughts, it means there wasn't permanent "breakthrough" ? How about you? Do you still sometimes go back into illusionary mind identification world?🙂 Wonderful. It's almost like: 1)"glimpse"-> here how reality really is 2)"fall back into mind identification"-> and that's what's preventing you from seeing it clearly... 😉 the more you suffer/discord, the harder it gets to ignore...

That's a good question. I think it's because of beliefs that some "thoughts" are about a separated entity called "me" which in reality, isn't true, it's like mistaking reflection for the mirror. Before, during and after thought, i am. What do you think?

it's funny, at first when i saw what you write about thoughts/beliefs, it wasn't understandable for me at all. I got maybe 10% of the things you said, now "i" really start to feel in guts what you write/transmit. For me, it was a thought/belief, that thoughts can't really alter reality/present moment that much. It was like " Phil damn it, It's just thoughts, stop overestimating that! Just tell my about your beliefs about reality!! operating in the background of experience 😉 I was so fucking wrong, as thoughts reveal by itself, it really starts to change perception/everything. yeah, it's really the way. ❤️ And even that what i wrote previously - there's a big assumption that there's a "me" which attention can by grabbed by thought - which is just another thought. When recognized, it really creates a big gap in mind - which feels kinda like "death" so in a moment "thinking operatus" starts to work hard to fill it. But unrecoginzed - it really feels that way. That illusion is really, really convising, unless you look really close. "i" keep going until it gets comfortable :)

Yes, you are right. I like the mind like a pond analogy - just leave water to settle by itself, don't touch the surface, you only make it more rough but still it's stiiicky. @phil thank you ❤️ Yeah, it's so paradoxical to talk, it really is the case, that as soon as you try to say something about it, you are back into thoughts/concepts/beliefs. It's like when there's void, the thoughtless space, the apparent separated-self puts the heaviest "guns" to "catch" the attention into thoughts/beliefs again. There was a thought even " damn i lost it again, i need to ask about it on forum" - which is hilarious, because it's a seeker-thought, and a belief, that someone else has better answers... but yeah, it grabbed "me". So "stickiness" of thoughts loses it's powers, as soon as thought is recognized as a thought. But it really seems hopeless sometimes, because it's like never-ending journey to disentangle from it, and i noticed after some time how clever thoughts were. It's like sometimes thoughts operate on very subtle level, on the background of experience, and it's not as easy to see. For example, when one's trying to focus on "foot sensation", there's a subtle image of the body, not so easy to grasp, because we are so used to it. So, there's nothing more to do, than just practice, practice, practice? ❤️ it's tempting to say " i got it" but "who's got it?" 😄 yeah, it's only this presence, and we can't really say anything about it.

I recently had a glimpse of pure sense, "i am". Not as a "thought" but as a living truth. i've experienced it, as i am this vast, spacious, no-thing, in which everything, including thoughts, appears, and disappears. It wasn't something special or mystical, in fact it was pretty neutral, but so enjoyable. it was so easy to "rest there" and thoughts weren't a problem AT ALL as they appeared/disappeared in me, as me. It was so clear. That "isness" was self-validating, obvious. It was big peace and equanimity. There were many thoughts like "this can't be it" "it's boring" "look further" etc, but at that point, all thoughts were laughable, as i rested as this space, it all took place. The content of thoughts weren't believable at all. No solving, no trying, just noticing "thought&let go. I can't "get there" since, and it's frustrating. i know, that what prevents me from this, is this thought/belief, that: -There's someone to "get there" -I'm not this already So basically, it's believing in thoughts again. But every time i go into meditation, there's this big sense of "struggle" and "trying" and i can't observe it anyhow, can't let it go, as i imagine how it was peaceful... It ends up in big frustration. Any tips please?:)

Recently i visited my "old place" i used to live most of my life, but i acted like i was still living there. Like i was still 20 years old ( i'm 30 now), and like i had the same thoughts which created "story of me", same problems, friends, etc. While doing this, i forgot about my "current life situation" to the point of really freaking out, that all what happened "later" was just a "trip/dream/memory" and it never happened. And it's pretty interesting, because the sense of "me" or "I" or "i am" is THE SAME no matter of your AGE/STORY/ LIFE SITUATION! That sense of "i'm" is ageless! It's timeless! All you experience is literally 6 things: visual, sound, sensation, taste, smell, and thought. Nothing more. And it's THE SAME "knowing" or "substance" as you were 10/15/20 years old. And it will be the same all your life. To get sense of that, just imagine that you are still teenager, still going to school etc, experience all those thoughts you used to have, and see, that it's stil the exact same "i am" . Only movie/story/content of thoughts changes. But awarenes/knowing/sense of "i'm" is still the same.

"I'm so present ! I'm so unconscious right now. I'm so conscious during my day! i can't stay present ..." Those are all thoughts. I really enjoy playing with it. When thought appears "OMG, i'm so helpless, i should be present, and i'm in thoughts again..." you can recognize it as thought/let it go. Or play with it and "think" something different like: "omg, i'm so good, i'm so present and i don't care about thoughts at all!!" and see that it doesn't matter what content of thought seems to be, it doesn't change what you are/present moment. from consciousness standpoint, it doesn't matter what you focus your attention on, thoughts and You is the same substance... .

@Phil was right, i started to religiously pay attention to beliefs i have, and it's amazing! If thoughts are like flies, beliefs are like honey. That's why it's so sticky, and certain thought patters come again, and again, until false is recognized as false. So what expectation/beliefs do you have about self-realization? i'll start. For example, simple, recent thought: "i need to meditate more so i can get enlightenment. It will solve all my problems." it's beliefs: There's separated "me" , which is apart from the thought itself That "me" is "doing" something, (it's a doer) That "me" travels through time (time is another thought) That "me" wants to get something which it doesn't have now ( hence it believes in lack) That "me" puts all hope in the future, which doesn't exist That "me" believes that there are some problems, it has, and it needs to solve That "me" believes the solution to those imaginary problems are in something called "enlightenment" which is another thought Enlightenment is something „i can get”. That "me" believes, that meditation is something which is separated, it's an activity which needs to be "done" by "it". ( Here quote from Rupert - meditation is something YOU ARE, person is something you DO) Just wow. One thought holds this many beliefs. If you want to share, just take on thought from your experience, and write all beliefs which are held to it 🙂

I think, The one who seems to ask this question must perish. Exhaust the seeker, become questionless, get out the way. 🥰

In my Europe time is midnight, and i cant this time, this late. Hope to catch you next time 🙂

im in very similar place. For me its also the end of the inquiry. Is there a way to continue? also it reminds me of: „in the seen, only the seen, in the heard, only the heard, in the sensed, only the sensed, in the cognized, only the cognized, and you see that there is no thing here, you will therefore see that indeed there is no thing there. As you see that there is no thing there, you will see that you are therefore located neither in the world of this, nor in the world of that, nor in any place betwixt the two. This alone is the end of suffering”

What do you think about it? For me, it made perfect sense, based on what i've seen

@Phil Thank you Phil ❤️ yeah... you know, thanks to you, i finally realized, that I still pretty much duel in thoughts, concepts and beliefs. This won't wake me up. I still find so much comfort in "searching" and getting answers from others, And this won't wake me up neither. It's all a distraction from looking inside, from looking within, and searching for truth there. I avoid fear and difficult emotions that way, but i can't run forever You are so right. "Person" that fictional character "of my life" is in delusion of knowing the truth. Lol. From now on, i shall give up all affords to get more knowledge, and focus on meditation, emotions scale, and dream-board. I shall start to really pay attention to my inner-guru, and listen to those emotions. I still can't understand, why i touch that damn stove!!! it burns every-damn-time!! How stubborn the man can be!😅 I write this also as a message to myself, it's like a declaration, to give up harmful addiction/habit. But it's the only way, to find out what is true myself. It's sooo tempting to fall into this discordant thoughts, like it's soo " sticky" it's a weird trick that consciousness plays on itself, i don't understand, why? 🙂 Love you Phil, ❤️

@Phil yes! i think it will work, when you drop the straightforward time of meeting, here, or on website/youtube 🙂 i'm in!

@Phil Thank you as always, Phil. It really melts my heart every time, how much passion, time, and involvement you put, to all those answers here. You are like our father. ❤️ I just want you to know, that your movies, answers, and blog post, are always joy for me. So as "spirituality" i'm not referring to you anyhow. ❤️ Yes. You are 100% right. Those are thoughts about separated self, which doesn't really exist, which are bugging me. Thoughts -> believes -> feelings. and i know that, "it's just a thought" but it doesn't change anything right now. Mostly: Sadness: 1. Thought that i know the truth and i don't like it. It was better not to know. 2. Thought that maybe i don't know the truth and i want to know, everything is meaningless without it. 3. I was so much better without spirituality, at least i believed it is all real, and i enjoyed it somehow. 4. If it's all the dream, it's all pointless, stupid, and meaningless. 5. I don't know what and who is real, so why involve in anything? Anger: 1. What kind of sick "God" would let me suffer like that? Why sick experiences like that? 2. What kind of sick "God" would make me believe that world is real at first, just to take it away from me. 3. What kind of sick "God" would play me like that, what the fuck is that, some sick game of psycho? 4. I don't like being "me" 5. Why i can't know the truth, why i bother with living like that and not "knowing" what "game" i'm playing.... 6. I don't know what and who is real, so why involve in anything? Fear: 1. How come being alone (i'm not talking about solipsism even, but still, it's just GOD even if it comes with 7 blion different finite form) in infinity is joyful? 2. I can't die if i suffer, that's terrible... 3. All that suffering in the world, that's me also... 4. I'm alone on the human level, whenever i go it's just me, myself, and "i" and i don't accept myself. I feel like being stuck in "being me". 5. I don't know what and who is real, so why involve in anything? yeah... With that, it goes all kind of harmful behaviors... All that phrasing especially from Vedanta, like " all is dream" " it's not real" "there's nobody" etc feels like a shithole, and i don't understand what's the point of existing like that. How come is all love, joy, and pleasure, when it looks like that? I used to have small things which made me feel good. Games. Sport. Books. Relationship. Friends. Now there's literary 0 of those. Because of the thoughts activities as above, which overlays everything i do. I try to mediate, observe it, expressing journal. But i can't work, do something for passion, i sit all day doing nothing, and i feel like " i need to find answers" . So i search, read about spirituality, and it goes back to the shithole... I feel like nothing "wordly" would bring me pleasure, unless i "get enlightenment" and know the truth. And it won't come, i know. Thank you ...

It seems like all this non-dual teachings really got me into a nihilistic, dispassionate state. I tried to make a dream board, and there's nothing i would like to try or achieve. I feel like it doesn't matter anyway, or it won't make my happy. I wake up every day, and just pray for this day to be over. Actually my biggest wish is, that i was gone. Why even bother if it's all a dream? Why even bother if i don't know what's real or not? Why even bother if it is infinity indeed, i might just die this lifetime, whatever. When i was chasing ego-based goals, like money, bigger house, car etc., at least i had a purpose. After stepping into spirituality, it all lost meaning and i have nothing to do or achieve. It totally meaningless, boring, and stupid. Right now i have 0 interest in anything "world'ly" , i read all day on spirituality, and it doesn't help anyway. It actually makes things worse. Is anyone it this state? Does anyone know what to do?