Misogyny

[Blessed2]

In the past few weeks and months I've noticed more and more that I hold misogynistic thoughts and beliefs. For example, I've noticed how heavily I objectify women.

 

It's not that I would want to restrict womens liberty of hurt them. Always been symphatetic toward feminism, at least to some degree. Though after the recent insights and uncoverings I'm way on board with it and realizing how by objectification etc. has clouded my judgement.

 

Basically I noticed that I kind of automatically, by default see women as objects of personal gratification, something that I can have or not have, something I can miss out on. This is why at times I've felt uncomfortable of how much sexual freedom women have gained in the past centuries. I've felt jealous of other men who women desire, who I percieve "having something I might miss out on". Kind of a FOMO. So then I've felt resentful of women who have a lot of sex with different partners, because I've seen them as objects I would like to have, not fully human. I have not paid attention and acknowledged their own desires and likes and search for happiness.

 

This is just one example. There are countless discordant thoughts like that.

 

Though I noticed that holding these beliefs and perspectives actually feel really bad. I noticed that it feels A LOT better to acknowledge that women have their own lives, they have their own desires and prefrences, and their own happiness. And it feels A LOT better to wish good things for them - for their desires and hopes to be fulfilled and for them to be happy, without my selfish motives.

 

Misogyny and objectification is no joke guys. It's real. Feminism is totally a legit and justified endeavor. For me there is really no doubt about it anymore. Life-changing insights.

[Blessed2]

1 hour ago, Devin said:

Objectifying someone is just the typical human state, misogyny is hating women, it sounds like you love them to me, not that you hate them. Most parents objectify their kids, friends do it, employees, .....

 

No, I think it's misogyny. I'm using the word in a sort of feminist / sociological context. Not hate per se, but prejudice, resent, "othering", objectifying.

 

I'm using quite strong language here. It's not like I wanted to hurt or didn't like women before... This is more like realizing that there has been underlying toxic beliefs at play. Subtle, but still very real and discordant.

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Blessed2

[Phil]

@Blessed2

Good for you. This is really great hear. 👊🏼 

[Blessed2]

This is African Renaissance Monument, located in Senegal. Saw a picture of it today and felt kind of sad.

 

It's probably an important symbol for the people of Senegal, nothing wrong with that, happy for them. 🙂

 

But I felt sad about the obvious patriarchy. See how each of the three people are looking in the same direction... Probably symbolizing an abundant future for peoples of Senegal. What's sad for me though is how the characters are placed. The woman on the left, lowest and furthest away from where the eyes are fixed. Man in the middle, holding up the baby, symbolizing holding up the future, holding the power. And the baby, furthest right, pointing towards, highest of them all. It would seem like it's all for the future, for the children and all people, but really not... See, if the baby happens to be a girl... The future is really not for her, is it?

 

Makes me sad. Is the monumet really for all the peoples of Senegal, or just for the men? Is the future for all the people, or just for the men? Is Senegal for all the people, or just the men? 😕

 

When we talk about abundance, when we do politics and relationships and future, is it really for everyone, or just the men? 

 

IDK, just really seems to me like the only one seen as fully 'human', only one whose perspective is 'objective' or 'trustworthy' so to speak, is the masculine cis man. Anything else... Is woman, or womanly. Somehow untrustworthy, unobjective, even dangerous. "The other". The 'objective point of view' of our collective is really the man's point of view.

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Blessed2

[Reena]

That's great. The first step to healing is recognizing. 

[Joseph Maynor]

But then there's also the reverse, women who seem to have a problem with men.  It goes both ways!  I've seen it go both ways.  Men are blamed for all the world's problems but it's a projection because the woman is acting like a man herself and secretly wants to be the kind of man she is criticizing.  It's a way to dominate men as a female who wants to be top dog herself.  If you argue with a woman like this as a man, I feel totally sorry for you because she's got something deep to prove and you may not even realize that.  You can sniff it out if you pay attention.  The attitude is there.  You might even witness a pattern of her trashing men, i.e., calling grown men "the boys" to denigrate them.  I knew a female lawyer who as a partner herself but not as high ranking calling the senior male partners in the firm "the boys" which is kind of messed up.  She scoffed at them openly around the entire office like they were little kids.  She was a feminist but masculine and dominating as hell herself.  These were the managing partners of the firm she was putting down!  These were not boys, these were the most powerful very masculine men in the office.  You could feel that hatred of and envy of the power that these men had with their huge offices and even huger egos.  That said, it's true that lots of men treat women like they're lesser than men which is unfair and should not be tolerated by women or men.  Everybody should be permitted to decide for themselves how much of the feminine or masculine they want to integrate regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Mandy]

@Joseph Maynor What if there isn't actually a hiearchy? 

[Blessed2]

@Joseph Maynor Sure, but not at all the same ballpark as widespread misogyny and patriarchy.

 

 

[Joseph Maynor]

4 hours ago, Mandy said:

@Joseph Maynor What if there isn't actually a hiearchy? 

In the  work world there almost often is a hierarchy.  I’m familiar with the field of law.  If you work in a law firm there’s power hierarchies.  There's the official and unofficial power hierarchy(ies) too.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Mandy]

19 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

In the  work world there almost often is a hierarchy.  I’m familiar with the field of law.  If you work in a law firm there’s power hierarchies.  There's the official and unofficial power hierarchy(ies) too.

But isn't that world modeled after an understanding of ourselves as separate, then feeding into the perceived need for hierarchies and the belief that power can be the possession of a separate self. 

[Joseph Maynor]

9 hours ago, Mandy said:

But isn't that world modeled after an understanding of ourselves as separate, then feeding into the perceived need for hierarchies and the belief that power can be the possession of a separate self. 

 

I see your point.  This is why I tend to not push the human into my shadow because I've had to work in these kinds of hierarchical work environments and that's about as real as it gets too.  You can have attainment but you're still in a certain system.  I remember a quote from Dr. Phil's book where he said if someone attacks you, you're in a fight, no matter what you think about reality or what you might want to happen, you're still in a fight, and fights have very specific tactical options that have to be executed right there whether you want to or not.  You might have to kill someone if they're threating you with deadly force.  So, when dealing with the human realm, that has a certain logic to it that has to also be respected by the person who also has spiritual attainment.  I hope I don't come off as too blunt here.  I'm trying to be concise.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Blessed2]

There's a quote I once heard from a Contrapoints video (can't remember which) that really stuck:

 

"Misogyny is the most universal prejudice."

 

It does seem like that... Almost every culture, almost every society, is patriarchal. Women seems to be oppressed, objectified, abused, all around the world. And for hundreds and thousands of years. Why? 🤔

 

[Mandy]

@Joseph Maynor Do you mind watching this and giving me your thoughts? It's a lot different from the Dr. Phil thing. 

[Serenity]

I suggest everyone who want to get a taste of what misogyny is like to try to pass as female on a forum. 

 

A pink icon, and a girly name will open the door to being infantilized, mansplained, and being on a regular basis not taken seriously.

 

Some come as far as harassing you because their ego gets bruised when they feel diminished by you as a woman for X and Y reasons. A strong need to put you back in an inferior position will arise.

 

@Blessed2

 

We live in a patriarchal era, which means yang values (everything that is perceived, felt, seen as masculine) is worshiped and most of the yin (everything that is perceived, felt. seen as feminine) is repressed. Though, it is not totally true because a fragment of what is seen as feminine is worshipped (beauty, youthful female bodies, motherhood to some extend, etc), but most of the rest is seen as unpractical, dangerous, or undesirable (connection to nature, emotions, and pretty much everything that gives her power that comes from yin energy).

 

The belief is that yin makes your yang weaker, so everyone who wants to increase their yang level repress and are somewhat subconsciously disgusted by the yin. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Serenity

[Mandy]

@Joseph Maynor

Forgot the link in the previous post, sorry. 

[Serenity]

1 hour ago, Blessed2 said:

"Misogyny is the most universal prejudice."

 

It does seem like that... Almost every culture, almost every society, is patriarchal. Women seems to be oppressed, objectified, abused, all around the world. And for hundreds and thousands of years. Why? 🤔

 

It's all about keeping everything that is perceived as feminine under control. Mother nature gives and takes life. In your infancy, your mother and yourself where the closest to unity, and you realized you were all dependent on her, at her mercy. She would give you all you'd need unconditionally. But we also understand that mother is almighty and we are powerless next to her.

 

As we grow up (3, 4 ,5 years old and +), we understand that another part of reality is conditional. And the current society we live in is highly polarized towards the yang principle which holds in it the value of doing, and competition. So we grow away from the figure of the mother, and often suppress or lose how it was like to be with her and her more yin values.

 

The unconscious still remember how mother was almighty, and how loving she was. When we evolve in a patriarchal society and we polarize ourself towards more yang, there is a deep longing for the love of mother, and a deep fear of how she reminds us of the absolute power of nature.

 

Patriarchal societies were designed to shelter us from the almightiness of mother nature, so we find ourself psychologically in a double bind.  Everything we do in a patriarchal society is for self-protection and control... We both want the feminine, and reject the feminine. The feminine undermines the patriarchal values... but the polarization towards too much masculine values in society increase the attraction for the it.

And so a lot of desire, frustration, fear, and anger occurs.

 

And we end up seeking for a non threatening, non powerful, sweet, beautiful, version of it. Most of the misogynie one will see is nothing else but men or women trying to put it back in the box, where it's safe and non-threatening.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Serenity

[Serenity]

A witch is nothing more than a feminine person who is a vehicle for Yin energy. 

[Joseph Maynor]

1 hour ago, Serenity said:

A witch is nothing more than a feminine person who is a vehicle for Yin energy. 

Interesting.  I have a somewhat similar yet different point of view.  A witch is the feminine leading with the masculine.  You have the masculine, the feminine, the masculine leading with the feminine, the feminine leading with the masculine, the divine marriage, and the integration of Man and God or the relative and the absolute.  A witch is strong in the feminine but is also leading with the masculine.  That's why witches are particularly dangerous to the masculine.  It's like chaos being channeled into order.   It's a feminine flank move to the masculine.  That's not Yin energy, that's Yin energy being channeled through Yang energy.   This particular flanking threat to the masculine is why witches have been and are are killed by the masculine.   Flanking just means an attack where you're not expecting it.  Compare that with a head on attack which is what the masculine is otherwise anticipating.  It's an attack to your side, it's a kick to the balls, a set of fingers to your eyes, an attack by chaos to order.  Of course this is only my opinion, anyone is free to disagree with me.  I encourage you to find whatever explanation of things resonates most with you.  

Edited November 23, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Serenity]

12 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Interesting.  I have a somewhat similar yet different point of view.  A witch is the feminine leading with the masculine.  You have the masculine, the feminine, the masculine leading with the feminine, the feminine leading with the masculine, the divine marriage, and the integration of Man and God or the relative and the absolute.  A witch is strong in the feminine but is also leading with the masculine.  That's why witches are particularly dangerous to the masculine.  It's like chaos being channeled into order.   It's a feminine flank move to the masculine.  That's not Yin energy, that's Yin energy being channeled through Yang energy.   This particular flanking threat to the masculine is why witches have been and are are killed by the masculine.   Flanking just means an attack where you're not expecting it.  Compare that with a head on attack which is what the masculine is otherwise anticipating.  It's an attack to your side, it's a kick to the balls, a set of fingers to your eyes, an attack by chaos to order.  Of course this is only my opinion, anyone is free to disagree with me.  I encourage you to find whatever explanation of things resonates most with you.  

 

Oh, I see you've heard about the sacred mariage and all of that. It's great to see you are interested in these matters. I have been very interested in daoism and the divine feminine/masculine through diverse approach in the last years. It is truly a powerful framework.

 

Whenever one chose to align with yin, the feminine comes first. The idea that the masculine should lead is a patriarchal conception. The masculine's job is to protect the feminine, so it can deploy itsel. 

 

In a patriarchy (which is the organization of almost all societies since the the discovery of agriculture and of the plow ), women integrating and aligning with masculine values, or even leading with their masculine is encouraged. Very little of the feminine principle is accepted. It's contained, and put in a box, to be surveilled and controlled.

 

A witch in the traditional sense of the term used be a woman aligning with the power of the yin principle. During the renaissance in Europe, you could have been a regular woman plucking some flowers and brewing yourself some tea with herbs and been subject to the repressed projection of the threatening yin energy by the patriarchy.

The fearful, dangerous aspect of the witch you are referring to is the heritage of that conception. A feminine person seeking to align with the feminine in a worldview where the feminine is a threat is ... a threat. Hence the idea that she's leading with her masculine, because people conflate the idea of power with masculinity, when in fact what makes her threatening is her aligning with the rejected feminine values.

 

To come back to my point and illustrate why the feminine comes first, Daoism, which is an ancestral philosophy a lot of people are familiar with states the yin comes first, and after comes the yang. Many are familiar with the concept of yin and yang.  And yin and yang are not called yang and yin, because while naming it, the order is shaped after how this model function. Also, And this is because it is an observable constant in nature.

 

An exemple could be the following:

Humans are gestated in the beginning all female. Only after comes the permutation into a masculine body.

 

Some other  exemple: Reality, actuality (the feminine) always comes before the mind, the ideal (the masculine). Or nature comes before the yang principle of civilization or technology. No nature -> no civilization. And reintegrating, realigning with the right order is the collective challenge we are going through at the very moment.

 

The feminine is creativity, love, compassion, alignement with reality, cooperation, being. If you look at  masculine values, it is what contains, compete, protect, organize, and do.

 

When people lead with masculine energy, dysfunction occurs. Being should come before doing. Cooperation should be chosen over competition if possible. Etc.

 

Our currents western civilization are a prime exemple of the masculine taking the lead over reality. Last centuries extreme politic movement were due to an extreme polarization of yang which lead  us through dreadful collective events.  I have always been wondering how so much madness was possible, but one shouldn't underestimate how dense can be an overlay over what actually is.  When one is excessively caught in the head, values the mind and intellect above all the rest and then get caught into non sensical thoughts processes and beliefs, the suffering inflected on beings can be endless.

 

This would not happen if feminine values would be put first, and then the masculine value would be also fully honored. This is what the secret mariage is about. Creating a balance between the two polarities.

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Serenity

[Joseph Maynor]

@Mandy

5 hours ago, Mandy said:

@Joseph Maynor

Forgot the link in the previous post, sorry. 

Watched it.  This is a very on point video.  It seems like  a very minor incident he describes though.  He describes how he let go of resistance.  Imagine trying to do this if someone were threatening you with deadly force.  In my opinion this style of teaching puts ego into the shadow.  I don't think it works like that personally.  I don't want to argue with you about this but I kind of see things differently.  I like ego but I also like a wise ego.  I don't wage a kind of war against the masculine side of self that I see others doing.  Fighting for me is just as necessary as peace.  Peace requires fighting.  Look at all the fighting Rupert had to do just to keep his emotions in check in this minor incident.  He doesn't see it as fighting, but it is.  He had to fight himself.  Now, you can interpret that differently as he does.  His style of philosophy changes interpretations around from how we ordinarily think and how I think.  It's fine if you live a life where you're not exposed to a lot of the masculine side of ego on the regular.  I appreciate you wanting to share this with me.  He's a very gentle, thoughtful man.  👍

Edited November 24, 2022 by Joseph Maynor