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@Joseph Maynor ❤️Yeah, it's a beautiful video, it's such a subtle yet POWERFUL thing he's pointing out. I see a lot of "masculine style" fights end something like this. https://wgme.com/news/local/maine-hunter-bags-a-9-point-buck-after-finding-it-stuck-to-a-dead-deer-hunting-season-interlocked-buck-entangled-adam-blanchette-surroyal-tines-mating-season-dominance?fbclid=IwAR2QmHScLZkKEtY95sA0wZpmo0c_DqmwjJZgvVYQUijDjA7AqBiob49wfPs The two male deer locked antlers in a fight during rut and couldn't separate themselves again, so they both died. For a glimpse in time it may look like there's a clear victor and a loser, but it's just a battle, it's never the way, and both have to surrender in the end.  The way of the Tao is kinda like surrendering before you need to, before your death or loss and that's also exactly the way of true leadership, if it really can be called that. 

 

I think that a lot of what we encounter that feels like fighting is when communication has been avoided so long it's broken down to the point where it can't happen easily. I think that constantly trying to be better or smarter than another (often because we feel insecure) is what inhibits true communication, and really being honest and authentic with one another. And that's where the real power lies. 

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9 hours ago, Mandy said:

@Joseph Maynor ❤️Yeah, it's a beautiful video, it's such a subtle yet POWERFUL thing he's pointing out. I see a lot of "masculine style" fights end something like this. https://wgme.com/news/local/maine-hunter-bags-a-9-point-buck-after-finding-it-stuck-to-a-dead-deer-hunting-season-interlocked-buck-entangled-adam-blanchette-surroyal-tines-mating-season-dominance?fbclid=IwAR2QmHScLZkKEtY95sA0wZpmo0c_DqmwjJZgvVYQUijDjA7AqBiob49wfPs The two male deer locked antlers in a fight during rut and couldn't separate themselves again, so they both died. For a glimpse in time it may look like there's a clear victor and a loser, but it's just a battle, it's never the way, and both have to surrender in the end.  The way of the Tao is kinda like surrendering before you need to, before your death or loss and that's also exactly the way of true leadership, if it really can be called that. 

 

I think that a lot of what we encounter that feels like fighting is when communication has been avoided so long it's broken down to the point where it can't happen easily. I think that constantly trying to be better or smarter than another (often because we feel insecure) is what inhibits true communication, and really being honest and authentic with one another. And that's where the real power lies. 


There is a problem with too much masculine.  But then inversely, there's a problem with too much feminine.  This is why the way I think about development work tries to take all of it out of the shadow and then integrate all of it -- which includes working to become a better human too.  So it's not just taking the feminine and the masculine out of the shadow, it's taking God and the human out of the shadow too.  And just to unlearn everything I've been conditioned with in spirituality over the years, I've found it rewarding to be ok being a human again -- including striving to be a good human!  This means controlling myself to the extent that I can improve my human condition just as one might control oneself to integrate their Godly condition.  I went through the phase where I was very rigidly human, ditto for very rigidly God, and now I'm very rigidly trying to just be a good dude with whatever control I can muster.  I don't have rigid beliefs anymore about this stuff, I just use whatever practically works for me.  And I try to encourage others to find whatever practically works for them.   I've changed a lot in the past few years regarding how I treat theory vs. practice.

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12 hours ago, Serenity said:

 

Oh, I see you've heard about the sacred mariage and all of that. It's great to see you are interested in these matters. I have been very interested in daoism and the divine feminine/masculine through diverse approach in the last years. It is truly a powerful framework.

 

Whenever one chose to align with yin, the feminine comes first. The idea that the masculine should lead is a patriarchal conception. The masculine's job is to protect the feminine, so it can deploy itsel. 

 

In a patriarchy (which is the organization of almost all societies since the the discovery of agriculture and of the plow ), women integrating and aligning with masculine values, or even leading with their masculine is encouraged. Very little of the feminine principle is accepted. It's contained, and put in a box, to be surveilled and controlled.

 

A witch in the traditional sense of the term used be a woman aligning with the power of the yin principle. During the renaissance in Europe, you could have been a regular woman plucking some flowers and brewing yourself some tea with herbs and been subject to the repressed projection of the threatening yin energy by the patriarchy.

The fearful, dangerous aspect of the witch you are referring to is the heritage of that conception. A feminine person seeking to align with the feminine in a worldview where the feminine is a threat is ... a threat. Hence the idea that she's leading with her masculine, because people conflate the idea of power with masculinity, when in fact what makes her threatening is her aligning with the rejected feminine values.

 

To come back to my point and illustrate why the feminine comes first, Daoism, which is an ancestral philosophy a lot of people are familiar with states the yin comes first, and after comes the yang. Many are familiar with the concept of yin and yang.  And yin and yang are not called yang and yin, because while naming it, the order is shaped after how this model function. Also, And this is because it is an observable constant in nature.

 

An exemple could be the following:

Humans are gestated in the beginning all female. Only after comes the permutation into a masculine body.

 

Some other  exemple: Reality, actuality (the feminine) always comes before the mind, the ideal (the masculine). Or nature comes before the yang principle of civilization or technology. No nature -> no civilization. And reintegrating, realigning with the right order is the collective challenge we are going through at the very moment.

 

The feminine is creativity, love, compassion, alignement with reality, cooperation, being. If you look at  masculine values, it is what contains, compete, protect, organize, and do.

 

When people lead with masculine energy, dysfunction occurs. Being should come before doing. Cooperation should be chosen over competition if possible. Etc.

 

Our currents western civilization are a prime exemple of the masculine taking the lead over reality. Last centuries extreme politic movement were due to an extreme polarization of yang which lead  us through dreadful collective events.  I have always been wondering how so much madness was possible, but one shouldn't underestimate how dense can be an overlay over what actually is.  When one is excessively caught in the head, values the mind and intellect above all the rest and then get caught into non sensical thoughts processes and beliefs, the suffering inflected on beings can be endless.

 

This would not happen if feminine values would be put first, and then the masculine value would be also fully honored. This is what the secret mariage is about. Creating a balance between the two polarities.


Great post by the way.  Here's where I would offer a different perspective.  I don't think the feminine is superior to the masculine.  In my experience the divine marriage along with taking the human out of the shadow is the optimal path.  And this is just my current thinking after having done this work for a long time.   It just depends on where you're at on your path as to what philosophy or integration is healthy for you or good for you.  If you're very feminine, then you could benefit by integrating the masculine.  If you're very Godly, then you could benefit by integrating the human.  If you're very masculine and feminine, then you can benefit by integrating the divine marriage.  It's just a model that helps with finding your strength and weaknesses so you can work on stuff that actually helps you grow instead of doubling down on philosophy,, pushing what you dislike into your shadow, and ultimately staying the same for years and years without much growth.  You just have to find things that resonate with you where you see actual personal growth when it comes to theory.  

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54 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:


Great post by the way.  Here's where I would disagree with you.  I don't think the feminine is superior to the masculine.  In my experience the divine marriage along with taking the human out of the shadow is the optimal path.  And this is just my current thinking after having done this work for a long time.   It just depends on where you're at on your path as to what philosophy or integration is healthy for you or good for you.  If you're very feminine, then you could benefit by integrating the masculine.  If you're very Godly, then you could benefit from integrating the human.  If you're very masculine and feminine, then you can benefit from integrating the divine marriage.  It's just a model that helps with finding your strength and weaknesses so you can work on stuff that actually helps you grow instead of doubling down on philosophy,, pushing what you dislike into your shadow, and ultimately staying the same for years and years without much growth.  You just have to find things that resonate with you where you see actual personal growth when it comes to theory.  

 

I am sorry but this is not correct. The concept of hierarchy is a yang concept. The feminine principle is wired towards equality. It comes first, but isn't superior or better than the yang principle.

 

It happens that people who see yang as superior to the yin principle will have this type of misconception, and will feel resistance at the thought of yin coming first. It's yin and then yang. Yin, and yang. It's just how it is.

 

I have a very well integrated masculine side. One has to understand that for having taken an interest in philosophy and self-help for years at a serious level, this is a mandatory element. Reading Jungian psychology and practicing shadow work has been also for a few years one of my main hobbies (if one can say integration your shadow is a hobby 😪🥺😂). So I am pretty well round up on the matter. 

 

Like many people in our civilization, my wounds are primarily feminine wounds. Too much insecurities (which stem from not enough unconditional love), that prevents me from leveraging with full strenght my masculine side. I frankly also have more aversion to the feminine than the masculine.

Reality, life and death, or nature are on a recurring basis resisted. I find them much more uncomfortable and scary. Though, it's only because my mind spins so much narrative on it. 😌

 

The reason why I am spending so much time studying Daoism and Jungian psychology is in order to align my relationship to the world according to these principles, in the divine mariage. I value both aspect of the spectrum equally and try to align with it.

Edited by Serenity

“Know yourself as nothing; feel yourself as everything.” - Rupert Spira

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11 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Imagine trying to do this if someone were threatening you with deadly force. 


When I train martial arts it has a more yin focus, it has to do with surrendering to and then helping the other person trip over themselves. It is a lot easier to move someone when you just go with their force and use it to pull/ push them out of their grounding to get them to fall over, then you can get out of the situation. But ultimately the best defence is the more yin ability to cool a fight down from ever happening. The best way to end a fight is to be the one who doesn’t even see a fight occurring, keeping your eye on the prize in a sense, Love.

Thought you might find this perspective interesting.☺️

 

Edited by Loop

Ten thousand tears,

One Belly Laugh.

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21 minutes ago, Loop said:


When I train martial arts it has a more yin focus, it has to do with surrendering to and then helping the other person trip over themselves. It is a lot easier to move someone when you just go with their force and use it to pull/ push them out of their grounding to get them to fall over, then you can get out of the situation. But ultimately the best defence is the more yin ability to cool a fight down from ever happening. The best way to end a fight is to be the one who doesn’t even see a fight occurring, keeping your eye on the prize in a sense, Love.

Thought you might find this perspective interesting.☺️

 

What martial arts are you training 😃, if I may ask?

“Know yourself as nothing; feel yourself as everything.” - Rupert Spira

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I don't resonate with this 'feminine and masculine' thing at all. Not sure why.

 

For me it feels like 99% of the times people talk about it is just total misunderstanding of the subject. It sounds a bit like pseudo-science.

 

Each time someone mentions masculine or feminine I feel icky. It triggers me for some reason.

 

Yall talk like "both are needed for delicate balance" and then describe masculine as just... The usual ego. Hierarchy etc. is just ego.

 

Ew. The whole thing is just repulsive to me for some reason.

 

There must be an effortless way.

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@Serenity

 

Mostly Tai Chi, mixed with other things. Tai Chi is the essence of yin based martial arts, a lot of more yang focus martial artist don’t seem to see the power in its passivity. The forms don’t really have a lot of strikes, but ways of moving the body with the earth, uniting in effortless power. So when combined with other things, then you feel its totally foundational power. 🌎
 

Ten thousand tears,

One Belly Laugh.

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6 minutes ago, Loop said:

@Serenity

 

Mostly Tai Chi, mixed with other things. Tai Chi is the essence of yin based martial arts, a lot of more yang focus martial artist don’t seem to see the power in its passivity. The forms don’t really have a lot of strikes, but ways of moving the body with the earth, uniting in effortless power. So when combined with other things, then you feel its totally foundational power. 🌎
 

I thought it might be Tai Chi!😃

 

Yes, I think this makes it mysterious and powerful too. 

It seems like it's a great form of martial arts for grounding and learning how to navigate as well.

“Know yourself as nothing; feel yourself as everything.” - Rupert Spira

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42 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

I don't resonate with this 'feminine and masculine' thing at all. Not sure why.

 

It also happened to be a pillar of the teachings of actualized. 😐 That duality isn't really there, ain't really a "thing" and thinking there is often results in inhibitions, judgements and feeling separate.

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47 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

I don't resonate with this 'feminine and masculine' thing at all. Not sure why.

 

For me it feels like 99% of the times people talk about it is just total misunderstanding of the subject. It sounds a bit like pseudo-science.

 

Each time someone mentions masculine or feminine I feel icky. It triggers me for some reason.

 

Yall talk like "both are needed for delicate balance" and then describe masculine as just... The usual ego. Hierarchy etc. is just ego.

 

Ew. The whole thing is just repulsive to me for some reason.

I think it might be because of an aversion or a confusion with the spiral dynamic stage blue type of essentialism and gender role assignment.

 

You know, where gender roles are put into specific places, and masculine and feminine values are assigned and become rigid categories. These talks where a man needs to be masculine and a woman feminine, but where the idea of what masculinity is or femininity is is a constructed, discordant fiction and reduce the individual to an 'ideal' that cannot possibly exist.

 

This framework we are talking about take into consideration these polarities, but these polarities are in no way beaten up into mind made category. They are observed as they are, and thus let free to express themselves as they want. In this framework, for instance, lgbtq+ communities are 100% valid and a manifestation of the interplay of the two polarities.

 

Daoism tells us that the feminine and the masculine ALWAYS come together 😀. So there is nothing as such as a solely masculine person or as a solely feminine person.

 

 

Edited by Serenity

“Know yourself as nothing; feel yourself as everything.” - Rupert Spira

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18 minutes ago, Mandy said:

It also happened to be a pillar of the teachings of actualized. 😐 That duality isn't really there, ain't really a "thing" and thinking there is often results in inhibitions, judgements and feeling separate.

Is there really not such things as a lamp which is 'up' on your ceiling and a carpet that is 'down' on your floor? I get that ultimately all is one, but bringing up the absolute perspective when the topic of duality is discussed is somewhat confusing me. Ultimately, all duality crumbles into unity... yes. But for practical matter, saying let's say that there is no mandy, no posts, no thread, no forum  and no x, can lead to serious impracticalities.

 

I've heard someone once say that nonduality is made out of the 'concept' of both duality and no duality. So picking one, let's say the absolute, and cancelling the relative perspective can become a duality in itself.  That perspective really stroke me as an important insight.

 

This is why the yin and yang symbol is made out of two parts that become/is one.

 

“Know yourself as nothing; feel yourself as everything.” - Rupert Spira

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@Serenity When you're interacting with someone and having fun, whether that's getting groceries and joking with the cashier or being intimate with a romantic partner, are you thinking about feminine or masculine and how you or they fall on that scale? Or in the very best of those interactions, in the moment, is there just the mutual enjoyment of who they/you are without needing to be a certain way or understand it? 

 

If I think that the way I like to be or am inspired to be in the moment is unattractive or abrasive, or too dominant because it's too masculine or I believe that I'm weak and undervalued and not taken seriously because I'm female, I'm gonna miss out on a whole lotta fun.

 

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@Serenity Forget what is said or how it's said. It gets really annoying, I realize this fully. Totally been there. Always looking for new ways to say it. If you just make the intention to catch yourself thinking something that's based on the assumption of separate selves, more importantly... something that feels really bad to focus on, and disregard it, and feel the relief, and see the light in it, THAT'S where it is. THAT'S what it's about. That's all. Just the permission to drop the tension, the thought focused on that feels bad. To then open to see things as they really are. Maybe today. Maybe not.

 

I can say there's no you, no light, no dog basking in the sun on the couch next to me until I can't anymore, but it only means anything FOR YOU. This, male/female, is all here for your pleasure. That's it. If you're making it into cold hard to accept facts, facts of survival, facts of suffering and repression, it feels bad exactly because that's your reminder that you've momentarily forgotten your Creation, your Self. It never forgets you. It never overlooks you. What is looking never overlooks. Go ahead and celebrate the feminine, and appreciate the masculine all you want, it's all your light. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Mandy said:

@Serenity When you're interacting with someone and having fun, whether that's getting groceries and joking with the cashier or being intimate with a romantic partner, are you thinking about feminine or masculine and how you or they fall on that scale? Or in the very best of those interactions, in the moment, is there just the mutual enjoyment of who they/you are without needing to be a certain way or understand it? 

 

If I think that the way I like to be or am inspired to be in the moment is unattractive or abrasive, or too dominant because it's too masculine or I believe that I'm weak and undervalued and not taken seriously because I'm female, I'm gonna miss out on a whole lotta fun.

 

To answer your question...  I consciously value more actuality, feeling, being in the present moment than being caught in framework. I try to be and use my mind as a tool, and not let it use me, like Eckhart Tolle says it well.

 

That said, right now, I am discussing ideas and framework because the subject has arisen and understanding concepts through my mind allows me to navigate life and create a better experience for myself than if I don't.

 

As far as I can tell, on Actualized, despite focusing on having fun and being in the present moment, minding your own business, you've been caught in an experience where sexism was part of it. It didn't look like whole lot of fun to me.

 

 

“Know yourself as nothing; feel yourself as everything.” - Rupert Spira

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1 hour ago, Mandy said:

It also happened to be a pillar of the teachings of actualized. 😐 That duality isn't really there, ain't really a "thing" and thinking there is often results in inhibitions, judgements and feeling separate.

 

Yeah

 

The entire sexuality, pick-up getting laid thing was pretty damn bad.

 

Imagine the amount of suppression needed to hold those beliefs. I feel stomach muscles clenching immediately.

 

There must be an effortless way.

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43 minutes ago, Serenity said:

As far as I can tell, on Actualized, despite focusing on having fun and being in the present moment, minding your own business, you've been caught in an experience where sexism was part of it. It didn't look like whole lot of fun to me.

 

But there isn't a me that's actually bound by time that can identify or be identified with the ideal of having fun and being in the present moment, that was caught in the past and suffered in the past.

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1 hour ago, Mandy said:

But there isn't a me that's actually bound by time that can identify or be identified with the ideal of having fun and being in the present moment, that was caught in the past and suffered in the past.

Yes, I get you.  

 

This doesn't prevent or make invalid discussing sexism, and its root through a dualistic framework. Relative problems require often relative perspectives and solutions.

 

“Know yourself as nothing; feel yourself as everything.” - Rupert Spira

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@Serenity For sure, I'm not saying it does. But the attitude of suffering "until you give me what I want" doesn't feel good and isn't going to get anyone anywhere. It's not that men will be giving their power over to women, or giving up the lion's share so that it's equal, there's no giving because they never possessed it to begin with. That's real empowerment. Not saying that you have those misunderstandings but that I sure did and they still come up and get in the way sometimes. 

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