Is chivalry dead?

[Orb]

@Alexander good luck 👍.

[ivankiss]

Not dead, but very rare, I'd say. Just as it's rare to find a girl who won't judge you based on what you have to provide, your status in social circles, etc.

 

I personally am always kind and honest when interacting with girls. Even if what I'm looking for is just sex. It's just how I am. Girls appreciate when you are open about your intentions from the very beginning and do not try to feed them bs.

 

Never had any issues, except with one girl who ended up screwing me over lol. Girls can be super rude and mean too. It all comes down to how much pain you're in. No matter your gender. If you got super screwed over a few times, you might end up being mean and screw others over too. Or start hating the opposite sex.

 

Healing, folks, healing. That's what we all need.

[Phil]

@Alexander

Solipsism is an ism. An ism is a distinctive doctrine, system, or theory. Solipsism by definition, and in direct experience is the activity of thought. What is suggested here is very much the opposite, and is the inspection of thoughts / beliefs. Confusing solipsism, the activity of thought, the believing of thoughts, for Truth, is delusion, is exactly the the fashion of ego purporting the nondual message spoken of. This is not, and is never, what is suggested here. 

 

Extrapolated only slightly… there is not a separate self… and a Truth. 

There is no “a you” which avoids “the Truth”. 

 

This is precisely what was shared on actualized.org, and why “Nahm”, believed to be a separate self, through the veil of spiritual ego, or ‘being a subject / separate self’… was asked to leave. 

[Faith]

3 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

I personally am always kind and honest when interacting with girls. Even if what I'm looking for is just sex. It's just how I am. Girls appreciate when you are open about your intentions from the very beginning and do not try to feed them bs.

👏👏👏

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Faith said:

So, I wasn't blaming this forum for these type of threads, so much as maybe saying that they really just are not appropriate, imo, on a spiritual form that has men AND women on it.  I personally don't want to read that crap. It was unfortunately acceptable on Actualized.org and so here we are again. 🙄

 

Anyways, I know a few women that were date raped, one with the date rape drug. She woke up in the middle of the act. 

 

So, no, I don't want to give you advice on this forum how you can just go fuck someone because you have low self esteem and want nothing but sex with complete disregard for the women you're objectifying...

 

As I said before though if all you want is sex and find another adult that only wants this too, then fantastic, but more often then not, we are talking about manipulating a woman that thinks she's going on some sorta "date" into having sex instead. 

👏👏👏

[Omelette]

I'll give my perspective as a part of the men who post here for sex advice:

 

To start, I've experienced women "using me" for sex. I don't think it's so straightforward as what you are saying about just asking a woman on a date. Anecdotally, I've met a woman at the club and hooked up. We kept in contact and I invited her out twice on an actual date and she declined. I thought she wasn't into me and just moved on essentially until she messaged me again at midnight to have sex. Some women like casual sex, and don't want to do dates.

 

For women it is a lot easier to get sex so there aren't posts about it. There are probably more women than men posting about struggling in long term relationships dealing with a dysfunctional partner. I also think that women in general have more social supports, a lot of us men who post in these forums don't have anyone to speak to about this stuff, so the internet becomes and outlet where our shameful thoughts get poured out.

 

I don't think it is a fair characterization to say it is manipulation for anyone to want to become more attractive to women simply for sex. I wouldn't call it manipulation for a woman to wear makeup, or for a women to get a mutual friend to introduce her to me because she is attracted. Women view men in the same shallow ways that men view women as well. There was a study that said a 5'6" man needs to make $175 000 more to be ranked as attractive as a 6" man. Both genders value each other for sex and their bodies.

 

In terms of the predator stuff and what you said in your most recent post about rape, I think you are really blowing things out of proportion. Do you really think that shy men who congregate on spiritual forums are more likely to be rapists then an average man? Most of us are here because we want to be desired by women and are upset because we aren't, if it was just sex everyone would hire a prostitute. I think sexual assault is horrific but we aren't the ones doing these crimes, we are just moping on the computer.

 

 

 

 

[Faith]

45 minutes ago, Omelette said:

I don't think it is a fair characterization to say it is manipulation for anyone to want to become more attractive to women simply for sex

 

I didn't say that. The manipulation happens on the supposed "date" when it's "unclear" to the women that the man's intention is just to bang. I'm speaking to the men that know that is what they want and nothing else. 

 

So, be up front and state what you want, this prevents the manipulation from happening and then the woman isn't being used just for sex.

 

45 minutes ago, Omelette said:

Most of us are here because we want to be desired by women and are upset because we aren't, if it was just sex everyone would hire a prostitute.

 

First off, I wasn't referring to your thread, second I AM referring to those threads and post stating exactly that, that they only really want sex, but aren't being up front with the women or don't plan to be.

 

45 minutes ago, Omelette said:

Do you really think that shy men who congregate on spiritual forums are more likely to be rapists then an average man?

 

Did I say the men here are MORE likely? No, I didn't. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

 

 

 

[Orb]

@DMT Elf that's because we cannot solve things with thinking imo.

[Orb]

@DMT Elf that's more thinking! 🙉

 

See?

Edited August 14, 2022 by Orb

[Orb]

@DMT Elf 😁

[Phil]

‘Sex’ is already a conceptualization. 

[WhiteOwl]

Well yea, its sad also because its not really going to resolve anything for the person, but its being made up into something that you SO desperately need. As being said already I think it has a lot to do with the huuge increase in self-proclaimed teachers on yt teaching confidence, charisma etc etc, which is mostly in relation to finding partners, so that sort of becomes the goal instead of being interested in the other person. All of a sudden you run around thinking you are a shy fool without confidence because you haven't hooked up with x numbers of women. I have sort of been there a few years ago, so I can understand. Never treated anyone badly of course, but the belief about needing to hook up with lots of women is something that lives a lot of places I think. 

 

But good post, def not a way I would want to act, something to be mindful of 🙂 

[Faith]

2 hours ago, WhiteOwl said:

But good post, def not a way I would want to act, something to be mindful of 🙂 

Thanks. Agreed. 😊

 

 

 

[Omelette]

On 8/14/2022 at 1:57 PM, Faith said:

 

I didn't say that. The manipulation happens on the supposed "date" when it's "unclear" to the women that the man's intention is just to bang. I'm speaking to the men that know that is what they want and nothing else. 

 

So, be up front and state what you want, this prevents the manipulation from happening and then the woman isn't being used just for sex.

 

 

First off, I wasn't referring to your thread, second I AM referring to those threads and post stating exactly that, that they only really want sex, but aren't being up front with the women or don't plan to be.

 

 

Did I say the men here are MORE likely? No, I didn't. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

 

 

 

 

What is a good way to handle these conversations, and at what point?

 

For instance, in my mind I would think I am being rude if I was direct with my intentions to everyone.

 

To me it would be like going to lunch with a coworker and saying "In my free time I wouldn't choose to spend time with you, I'm only here because I have to work and interacting with you is slightly less boring than being alone".

 

I also would avoid it because I think it would be presumptuous to bring up sex before it has happened.

 

Let's say I'm on a date with a woman and have no intentions of any serious relationship. Do you think there's a difference between just not bringing up the topic, versus actively lying about it?

There have been times where I can tell a someone wants something more serious and I don't, in some cases I mostly wanted sex. I just avoid the topic. It certainly doesn't feel good, but it's justified by the thought that "I never agreed to or spoke about dating; if I wanted to date a women, I wouldn't be entitled to just because I want to, so neither is she"

 

I would also feel offended if I'm just enjoying time with a woman and she says "I only like having sex with you and want nothing more from our relationship", even if that was both how we felt.

 

This is all just how I have been socialized and I think the general ideas that most people in my area would have. I can definitely see how it's hurtful to directly lie but I am conflicted on the morality of being ambiguous with your intentions.

 

I also wouldn't know when to bring it up. I fear sounding needy if I told a woman I wanted a LTR after only a few dates. I fear sounding heartless and making the woman feel like a slut if I said I only want sex and nothing more when I only met her once or a few times.

 

 

 

 

[Faith]

@Omelette

 

Maybe @ivankisscan give some real life verbiage he's used?

 

Otherwise, I'd say  something like, " I'm not looking for anything serious" and/or "I'm not looking to date anyone right now" or "I'm not interested in a relationship at this point in my life"...could be worked into the conversation at some point, so she knows what's up if she allows it to go any further. 

 

You don't have to say I'm going to use you for sex and never call you again. It's pretty much implied by the above statements that she may never hear from you again or just for a booty call, if she gives up the goods. 

 

 

 

[ivankiss]

@Omelette

It can be as simple and straightforward as @Faith said. Don't complicate things. You can also be a bit more playful about it... depends on the girl and the vibe you got going.

 

First establish a connection and when you're both comfortable, relaxed and feeling good, simply bring it up. There's nothing wrong with not looking for a relationship and just wanting to have some fun. You'd be surprised how many girls are in the same boat, for whatever reason.

[Faith]

@ivankiss Thanks for your feedback/comment on the topic! 😊

[ivankiss]

@Faith Welcome 🙂

[Blessed2]

@Faith Reading this and paying attention to how I feel and what discord comes up, might give some sense why at least I might have some trouble with it. Others might have different thoughts and feelings. I hope it's clarifying. I know some of the stuff I write here might sound kind of I'm blaming you or directing it toward you or all women, but it's more like just bringing up what feelings and thoughts come up. Kind of 'tapping into' what pain I notice within myself. Not trying hurt anyone or to justify anything, just trying to take a look at what's going on. 🙂

 

I'd like to also mention something that often goes unsaid... Me, and I suspect most men in general, really do find women very beautiful and hot, desirable. The desire can be super intense, and so are the doubts and disappointments etc. This might go unnoticed by women. I kinda got a feeling that women often don't realize just how intense the crushes and desire is, and how much it affects men. Sometimes a woman can be so beautiful and sexy that the mind goes blank. Literally so that you cannot believe how beautiful she is. The desire to be intimate, to feel connected and in a sense be one with this beauty and sexyness is very, very strong. There is a sense of urgency. Cannot focus on something else. It feels like you just can't stand the 'separation' and feeling unfulfilled. Doubting and even fearing that I can never be fulfilled and unified with this indescribable beauty is haunting and painful, and really hard to acknowledge and bring into light.

 

If there is some disappointments, when there is focus on the lack of it, what follows is basically this resentment/blame/anger directed toward women. Kind of underlying despair. When you talk about chivalry etc, it makes me feel angry and kind of even offended. It's because the subject, the insecurity and despair, jealousy etc. are just so hurtful. Kind of makes me want to go down the road of "Well have you taken men to dates? Have you ever made any moves? Have you been rejected over and over again?" "I have tried that, but women don't even really want it with me, but the strong masculine man they actually find desirable."

 

There is a lot of discordant beliefs and perspectives. There is this kind of a "why should I take girls on dates and be a gentleman when women never come to me or even notice my presence?" "Why should I be nice when women are never nice to me?" "Do you know what it feels like when women talk about, complement and desire other men, and you go just unnoticed and never get any attention?"

 

Then there is a belief which is really hard to let go... That it seems like "women really just want to be with the rich, the famous, the dominant, the powerful." Jealousy. And thinking that women are just assholes, superficial, hurtful, not trustworthy, even evil. Believing this, holding these perspectives, obviously wouldn't make just hanging out with a woman any fun. In fact, it's uncomfortable.

 

What's the point of going on dates and being a gentleman when in the end women don't really even want you, but someone else? What's the point when it's just going to be disappointing? You feel like you are being judged and measured, and that you need to impress, to be better than other men, otherwise you are left alone, cheated, etc. This is BTW partly why I even got into spirituality & philosophy - I thought I need to be smarter than other men, to make an impression so that I could be with women. Maybe even be able to heal or do magic ya know. That'll make them forget other men.

 

All this in might make me feel like shit if I even see some random beautiful woman. It's super painful.

 

These might be the roots of widespread misogyny. 

 

Kind of just wrote as thoughts came up. There might be some more insight coming up later.

 

Also, I recommend checking out who incels are and what they think, if you're not familiar with it. I dare to say that it is how many men feel every now and then, but in the case of incels it goes way over, way into toxic ideology and just straight up misogyny and violence etc. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Blessed2

[Mandy]

4 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

I'd like to also mention something that often goes unsaid... Me, and I suspect most men in general, really do find women very beautiful and hot, desirable. The desire can be super intense, and so are the doubts and disappointments etc. This might go unnoticed by women. I kinda got a feeling that women often don't realize just how intense the crushes and desire is, and how much it affects men. Sometimes a woman can be so beautiful and sexy that the mind goes blank. Literally so that you cannot believe how beautiful she is. The desire to be intimate, to feel connected and in a sense be one with this beauty and sexyness is very, very strong. There is a sense of urgency. Cannot focus on something else. It feels like you just can't stand the 'separation' and feeling unfulfilled. Doubting and even fearing that I can never be fulfilled and unified with this indescribable beauty is haunting and painful, and really hard to acknowledge and bring into light.

Are we material objects? Can beauty be owned? Is beauty the effect of an object? Is the appreciation of beauty ever separate from you?