My thoughts of Leo and actualize.org. What do you think?

[Faith]

4 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

If you were awake Phil, you would see that feedback before anyone said it to you. 

What are you talking about?

 

4 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

You would acknowledge the egoic shadow side of things instead of pretending they don't apply to you. 

What egoic side are you talking about here that should be "acknowledged"?

And just how has he said they do/don't apply to him?

 

4 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

That's what I picked up on right away and said to myself -- this is why I can't be on anyone else's community for very long.  Once I start to unpack the teacher and that doesn't go well

 

Then, that's your misunderstanding, because Phil has said numerous times that he's not a teacher. If you can't be in a community, well that's a separate issue.

 

The rest of your post doesn't apply either, because like I said, @Phil doesn't claim to be anyone's teacher. 

 

He has created a community for ppl interested in non-duality to come together and discuss topics. What's so bad about that? Has he asked you for anything? 

 

Did someone piss in your cheerios this morning too? 

 

 

[Jonas Long]

The non-dual argued, "I know you are but what am i?"

Haha

Seriously though, nonduality is a bad place to begin for people new to "spirituality" it just gets used to justify whatever position you like.  When it gets brought up in an argument or debate, it becomes absolutely annoying and pointless.

[Mandy]

26 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

"I was traumatized because I was sexually abused from the ages of 8-11 by a family member and then recently i lost my job, ended a longterm relationship, and now my cat is sick with feline AIDS. I feel so lost."

 

THERE IS NO SELF! THERE IS NO ONE TO ABUSE! ASK YOURSELF WHO IS IT THAT LOST THEIR JOB! CATS SUCK. WORDS ARE MERELY POINTERS. 

 

Hilarious. 

But what is the relationship of compassion to suffering? 

[Faith]

1 hour ago, Ges said:

Feedback: This is super annoying. It's clear what Joseph meant. Yet, you twisted the meaning around and made sarcasm out of it, while pretending that you are being serious. You deflected the point with this straw-man answer, as you always do

 

What is this??? 

 

No, it's not clear what was meant. I haven't a clue myself and it should be clarified! There was no twisting of meanings and deflecting of a point with a straw-man answer!

 

 You need to do some more of that self-reflecting stuff my dear, because you are out of line in my humble opinion. 

 

[Annie]

Yeah, I don't really understand all the outwards nitpicking, unless you really wanna change someone for the better it's best not to say anything if you don't really know much about the person.  I've been guilty of this in the past, but I'm working on it.  I'm a bit confused on the whole questioning Phil thing - what exactly is he doing?  I'm not even seeing it.

 

Are you sure you guys don't just have ego problems with needing to look outwards at what other people are doing wrong?
Maybe it is an inwards problem, too?  Because if you do have that ego problem, you'll be looking for it in everyone - and then everyone will just be nitpicking each other and not understanding one another; like that happens on the other forum too much already.

 

I just worry that this is all this place could turn into if we aren't careful - we should always go in with a growth oriented well meaning position.

I don't think the suspicion is warranted.  

Let's try viewing people with universal Love.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Annie

[Jonas Long]

"Nondual community"

Lmao

Me and my solipsism support group are teaming up with the nihilists to convert the Jesuits.

[Mandy]

6 minutes ago, Annie said:

I'm a bit confused on the whole questioning Phil thing - what exactly is he doing?  I'm not even seeing it.

I think that a few people are thinking that he's a Leo voodoo doll. 

[Faith]

4 minutes ago, Annie said:

I'm a bit confused on the whole questioning Phil thing - what exactly is he doing?  I'm not even seeing it.

Exactly, because there's nothing to see, but ppl trying to cause trouble to this community. Phil hasn't done anything to deserve this kind of treatment. 

 

[Jonas Long]

If you're going to Cherry pick when you choose to bring out non duality, meaning at your convenience when it serves your agenda in the moment, you're just gonna gaslight people and sound like a jerk.  This is why it should be learned by people who are years into having a practice, not as an intro to spirituality.

[Aware Wolf]

17 minutes ago, Mandy said:

But what is the relationship of compassion to suffering? 

 

WHO IS ASKING THE QUESTION? 

 

Oh sorry. The relationship of compassion to suffering? I dunno, perhaps as a motivation to alieve suffering? Or a POV that sees compassion as a beneficial response to suffering? As a philosophy, that a kinder world is a better world? 

 

I don't see where you're going with this. 

[Jonas Long]

...If you are going to have a community you are agreeing to participate in a duality, and accept your "role" as an individual for the sake of discourse.  You can't then have it both ways and start pulling out "no duality" when it serves your position as an "i".  You see the problem here? 

[Kevin]

3 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I did 5-MeO-DMT for the first time a day or two ago just to see wtf Leo Gura has been yammering about for so long using all his terminology.  Here's the trip report.
 

 

I love the video. I really appreciate how you didn’t jump to conclusions about what it means and you didn’t try to say What the experience is. It’s such a powerful experience that it’s easy to feel oneself into thinking they have the truth and that everyone needs to smoke 5meodmt.

I personally fell into that trap when I first did it so I appreciate how grounded your description is.

[Aware Wolf]

19 minutes ago, Lester Retsel said:

If you're going to Cherry pick when you choose to bring out non duality, meaning at your convenience when it serves your agenda in the moment, you're just gonna gaslight people and sound like a jerk.  This is why it should be learned by people who are years into having a practice, not as an intro to spirituality.

 

This is a bold statement. But I like it. It's very ponderable. 

 

Not that I don't entirely disagree. There's charlatans and obnoxious people in all religions, but the most obnoxious and annoying people I've found, by far, are the Neo Advaitins. If you go into a traditional religion, let's take an example, Theravada Buddhism, there's often monks and teachers who are legit, there's not so many dangerous areas where people get lost. Perhaps Jhana practice, there's a lot of bullshit, myths, and delusion concerning Jhana claims (See Daniel Ingram, Frank Yang, Delson Armstrong)

 

I also wouldn't say it's nondualism per se -- it's Neo Advaita view of nondualism. If you study Advaita Vedanta, you've got a structure, a teacher, and a system that hopefully doesn't let you fall into traps or ditches. 

 

The thing with Neo Advaita, is that one can take a few nondual books, read them, and then proclaim one is awakened. This can't really happen, at least not easily, with Theravada. Sure, Daniel Ingram, Yang, and other Internet Arahants claim to be Arahants -- but they get a lot of blowback too and there's no legitimate Theravada teachers that support their claims. I think Magick also is a system that can lead people to overestimate their attainments though I know nothing about Magick except that one could read Crowley and few others and then claim to be a Master of Magick -- and who's going to say you're wrong? 

 

Neo Advaita often rejects teachers and authority. They can have a nondual experience and then they're free to interpret this experience on their own. Leo Gura interprets it as solipisism. A nondual YouTube nondualist "A" said there's no self, no thing -- not even illusion. So it's nihilism. 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Aware Wolf

[Jonas Long]

4 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

 

This is a bold statement. 

 

Not that I don't entirely disagree. There's charlatans and obnoxious people in all religions, but the most obnoxious and annoying people I've found, by far, are the Neo Advaitins. If you go into a traditional religion, let's take an example, Theravada Buddhism, there's often monks and teachers who are legit, there's not so many dangerous areas where people get lost. Perhaps Jhana practice, there's a lot of bullshit, myths, and delusion concerning Jhana claims (See Daniel Ingram, Frank Yang, Delson Armstrong)

 

I also wouldn't say it's nondualism per se -- it's Neo Advaita view of nondualism. If you study Advaita Vedanta, you've got a structure, a teacher, and a system that hopefully doesn't let you fall into traps or ditches. 

 

The thing with Neo Advaita, is that one can take a few nondual books, read them, and then proclaim one is awakened. This can't really happen, at least not easily, with Theravada. Sure, Daniel Ingram, Yang, and other Internet Arahants claim to be Arahants -- but they get a lot of blowback too and there's no legitimate Theravada teachers that support their claims. I think Magick also is a system that can lead people to overestimate their attainments though I know nothing about Magick except that one could read Crowley and few others and then claim to be a Master of Magick -- and who's going to say you're wrong? 

 

Neo Advaita often rejects teachers and authority. They can have a nondual experience and then they're free to interpret this experience on their own. Leo Gura interprets it as solipisism. A nondual YouTube nondualist "A" said there's no self, no thing -- not even illusion. So it's nihilism. 

 

 

 

[Jonas Long]

4 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

 

This is a bold statement. 

 

Not that I don't entirely disagree. There's charlatans and obnoxious people in all religions, but the most obnoxious and annoying people I've found, by far, are the Neo Advaitins. If you go into a traditional religion, let's take an example, Theravada Buddhism, there's often monks and teachers who are legit, there's not so many dangerous areas where people get lost. Perhaps Jhana practice, there's a lot of bullshit, myths, and delusion concerning Jhana claims (See Daniel Ingram, Frank Yang, Delson Armstrong)

 

I also wouldn't say it's nondualism per se -- it's Neo Advaita view of nondualism. If you study Advaita Vedanta, you've got a structure, a teacher, and a system that hopefully doesn't let you fall into traps or ditches. 

 

The thing with Neo Advaita, is that one can take a few nondual books, read them, and then proclaim one is awakened. This can't really happen, at least not easily, with Theravada. Sure, Daniel Ingram, Yang, and other Internet Arahants claim to be Arahants -- but they get a lot of blowback too and there's no legitimate Theravada teachers that support their claims. I think Magick also is a system that can lead people to overestimate their attainments though I know nothing about Magick except that one could read Crowley and few others and then claim to be a Master of Magick -- and who's going to say you're wrong? 

 

Neo Advaita often rejects teachers and authority. They can have a nondual experience and then they're free to interpret this experience on their own. Leo Gura interprets it as solipisism. A nondual YouTube nondualist "A" said there's no self, no thing -- not even illusion. So it's nihilism. 

 

 

I agree...most "magick" people are the FUCKING worst.. likewise with many "nondual" people.  Idk if you read my second comments, but here, for thus purpose, we are all agreeing to act in a duality for the sake of discourse.  The moment someone within a discourse selectively pulls out "but nonduality" they are breaking tue rules of the agreement of the discourse.  It may be true in the "grandest" sense.  But it is sooooo easy to misuse and abuse. 

[Jonas Long]

Traditionally, things like nonduality would be withheld for people who were years into their practice under a teacher...obviously this can't be contained anymore, and predictably, people are taking things like nonduality "oh your projecting" and any number of psychological and spiritual terms and totally bastadizing them for their own purposes.  Most people who invoke "projection" or "nonduality" don't even know how bad or incomplete their understanding of these things are, because they've become commonplace.

[Aware Wolf]

If someone asks me :

 

"Aware Wolf, I've just started a new job. My employer offers matching funds for a 401K. However I have 20K worth of credit card debt with a high interest rate. Should I put money into the 401K or payoff credit cards? If I put money in the 401K what funds are good?"

 

There are good answers here, and bad answers, and then there's nondual answers and platitudes:

 

THERE IS NO SELF. 

MONEY IS A CONSTRUCT. 

MONEY DOESN'T BUY YOU HAPPINESS. 

MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL. 

ESCHEW THE WORLD OF GREED. 

NOTICE THAT FUNDS ARE JUST A THOUGHT.

 

scenario: Oh! There's a snake! Is that snake poisonous?

 

There's good answers and bad answers here.

 

"Yes!" -- when the snake is indeed poisonous (GOOD ANSWER)

"No!" when it is (BAD ANSWER)

 

NONDUAL ANSWER

THERE IS NO SNAKE. ASK YOURSELF WHO IS ASKING THE QUESTION. 

 

The Grammar Nazi Answer:

"No, it's probably not poisonous. It *may* indeed be venomous. Remember, if you bite it and you die -- it's poisonous. If it bites you and you die, it's venomous." 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Aware Wolf

[Jonas Long]

3 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

If someone asks me :

 

"Aware Wolf, I've just started a new job. My employer offers matching funds for a 401K. However I have 20K worth of credit card debt with a high interest rate. Should I put money into the 401K or payoff credit cards? If I put money in the 401K what funds are good?"

 

There are good answers here, and bad answers, and then there's nondual answers and platitudes:

 

THERE IS NO SELF. 

MONEY IS A CONSTRUCT. 

MONEY DOESN'T BUY YOU HAPPINESS. 

MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL. 

ESCHEW THE WORLD OF GREED. 

NOTICE THAT FUNDS ARE JUST A THOUGHT.

 

scenario: Oh! There's a snake! Is that snake poisonous?

 

There's good answers and bad answers here.

 

"Yes!" -- when the snake is indeed poisonous (GOOD ANSWER)

"No!" when it is (BAD ANSWER)

 

NONDUAL ANSWER

THERE IS NO SNAKE. ASK YOURSELF WHO IS ASKING THE QUESTION. 

 

The Grammar Nazi Answer:

"No, it's probably not poisonous. It *may* indeed be venomous. Remember, if you bite it and you die -- it's poisonous. If it bites you and you die, it's venomous." 

 

 

 

Exactly.  People should really chill on the invocation of nonduality.  What if a presidential candidate started pulling it out when challenged by their opponent lol.  And leo of course is the worst.  Using it to justify whatever he wants to get away with that people object to.

[Arug Oel]

@Aware Wolf

Quote

The thing with Neo Advaita, is that one can take a few nondual books, read them, and then proclaim one is awakened.

Well, one could do that with anything, including this website.

24 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

Not that I don't entirely disagree. There's charlatans and obnoxious people in all religions, but the most obnoxious and annoying people I've found, by far, are the Neo Advaitins.

Really? The average fundamentalist Christian is worse than a standard "neo-Advaitan" or are you just exaggerating?

24 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

Daniel Ingram

Do you have any valid criticisms? Or not?

24 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

I think Magick also is a system that can lead people to overestimate their attainments though I know nothing about Magick except that one could read Crowley and few others and then claim to be a Master of Magick -- and who's going to say you're wrong?

You can overestimate your attainments in any system, not just spiritual ones and definitely not just the ones you've come to dislike. But occult movements, such as Thelemic organizations like the OTO, etc. are incredibly hierarchical the same way the Catholic Church is. Nobody making nonsense claims to attaining in those communities would be taken seriously the same way you couldn't randomly declare yourself a cardinal and have the pope acknowledge that.

@Phil

Quote

Seeing feedback, prior to the feedback transpiring? Do you mean like precognition, clairvoyance or something along those lines?

There aren’t people who are awake and people who aren’t. You’re welcome here. I’m not a teacher. 

Right on. 

No, he means that if you were truly awakened, you would not be susceptible to issues he believes you have and would understand them before they would possibly emerge or be a problem. No precognitive supernatural abilities required.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Arug Oel

[Jonas Long]

Nonduality is basically pointless to talk about.  Realize it for yourself, great.  But when you are interacting with people, you are agreeing to play your role essentially, you are just gonna sound like a little shithead mostly when you start bringing up Nonduality.  It's like the Tao that can't be talked about.