Revelation

[Phil]

22 minutes ago, Orb said:

I was at the doctor a few weeks ago and went through something so painful thoughts were no longer arising. I was screaming and one of the nurses had to hold my hand tight. That was pain.

Sounds like a great example of pain without suffering, due to the detail of no thoughts. 

 

(I’m not suggesting no thoughts is a requirement or goal here. Careful not to add that in.)

 

22 minutes ago, Orb said:

Whether or not enlightenment unfolds still there's flesh and blood, and still pain.

Though it might not be realized as such yet, this is an example of suffering without pain. 

(Assuming there is no experience of pain presently). 

 

What is flesh and blood made of?

 

What is the difference between there are these separate things… and… there is an experience of the thoughts, flesh, blood & pain, and of perception & sensation these thoughts point to, yet do not actually define? Put another way more simply; with the utmost scrutiny,… what is the direct experience of flesh, blood, and pain?

 

22 minutes ago, Orb said:

Like how Jesus died, that guy went through agony and humiliation.

What is a word for experience that is heard about, yet you have no actual / direct experience of? 

 

 

What emotion is primarily experienced right now… and what is the next emotion on the scale… and then the next?

And why do you, so to speak, feel better when acknowledging each ‘next higher’ emotion?

 

 

Is that enlightenment = no pain an absolute fact, or a belief?

[Mandy]

Phil said "direct experience only" 

 

That's a thought occurring now. 

 

You have to be willing to go general and let go the specific. 

[Mandy]

"General anesthesia" lol 

[Orb]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

What is flesh and blood made of? 

Nothing it's just thoughts appearing.

 

2 minutes ago, Phil said:

What is the difference between there are these separate things… and… there is an experience of the thoughts, flesh, blood & pain, and of perception & sensation these thoughts point to, yet do not actually define? Put another way more simply; with the utmost scrutiny,… what is the direct experience of flesh, blood, and pain?

Flesh and blood refers to feeling sensation, like I was outside walking, feeling warmth on skin, sweat beads. There's no pain though.

 

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

What is a word for experience that is heard about, yet you have no actual / direct experience of? 

Jesus dying on the cross. 

 

I'm not sure how to stop objecting to the truth lol. 

 

5 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Phil said "direct experience only" 

 

That's a thought occurring now. 

 

You have to be willing to go general and let go the specific. 

Yes fine! I'll go general. 

 

5 minutes ago, Mandy said:

"General anesthesia" lol 

Lol

[Orb]

@Phil is this conversation really gonna break down the whole self illusion? Or dispel it or whatever? I'm so tired of going in circles with this.(in the back of my mind I hope it does)

Edited October 14, 2023 by Orb

[James123]

24 minutes ago, Orb said:

But all of those distinctions are irrelevant when there's real pain. We take so much for granted. Yea there's no one suffering, no self, etc. That's all nice to say living in times of peace but I'd prefer not to be beheaded or tortured. 

Have you ever seen any torture in your real life? Or what was the more tramatique thing that go through?

[Orb]

6 minutes ago, James123 said:

Have you ever seen any torture in your real life? Or what was the more tramatique thing that go through?

The worst I've ever seen was a woman being beaten by a guy in a parking lot at night outside a mall. Other than that just videos on the news with the israel/hamas conflict. It's horrible stuff.

[James123]

12 minutes ago, Orb said:

The worst I've ever seen was a woman being beaten by a guy in a parking lot at night outside a mall. Other than that just videos on the news with the israel/hamas conflict. It's horrible stuff.

The guy who was beaten the woman is the worst part of world you have ever seen. Rest is an illusion. 

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Orb said:

@Phil is this conversation really gonna break down the whole self illusion?

 

 

A card table is apparent, and thus can be broken down (as in folded up). 

 

That there are actually two separate finite things, me and a card table, is an illusion (of believing thoughts). 

 

Illusion is not a finite thing.

 

Illusion is not appearance.

 

Illusion denotes: does not actually exist. 

Is believed to exist, but does not actually exist. 

 

Illusionist saws a box in half with a woman in it. Was she actuality cut in half? 

No. That is the illusion. 

 

 

The whole self is not an illusion.  

 

That there is a body and room (separation) right now is an illusion. Perception, which the thoughts ‘body’ and ‘room’ point to is appearance. 

 

The actuality of ‘the body’ and ‘the room’ is the whole self - you - as is, right now… without any changes, without anything realized. This is already the case. 

 

 

 

“Is this conversation gonna break down unicorns?”

No. No it is not. Is this a problem in any way? No. No it is not. Why? Because unicorns already don’t exist. 

 

 

“Might this conversation contribute to noticing I’ve been believing I’m a unicorn (separate finite self) my entire life and it isn’t true?”

It might. It’s essentially contingent on reacting to arising thought, vs contemplating what is being said very, very, very deeply. 
 

Expectations are held, like enlightenment would mean no experience of pain. This is the overlooking of what is already the case, experience of pain included, yet, believing the thought pain denotes separation, a thing, other-than-yourself, is illusory. 

 

 

Analogously… 

When you look in a mirror there is an illusion that is you. Yet, there is no panic and attempt to free yourself from being stuck inside the mirror, because it is readily seen the reflection is that of light & perception. There is no belief that you are inside the mirror, and so there is no belief that getting out is liberation. 

 

A separate finite self can not become enlightened because it already does not exist and is the illusion of believing (self referential) thoughts. 

The remedy is non-reaction in terms of thoughts. Thought arises - don’t believe it or say it. Let it go, then contemplate more deeply. Repeat. 

 

 

There seems to be thought attachment / believing of thoughts as it relates to the body (flesh & blood). 

Close your eye and find something, anything, other than sensation in terms of direct experience of the body. 

 

Contemplate: 

Are you aware of the body?

Therefore, in the identity sense, you are awareness, not the body. 

Confirm inversely; by attempting, right now, to body awareness.

Obviously it doesn’t make any sense because you, awareness, are prior to, appearing as, and aware of, the thought ‘body’, and sensation. 

 

The terms nothing and the truth are used flippantly, carelessly without having contemplated, and disrespectfully.

The body is being disrespected. Change that by making it a point to spend five minutes a day appreciating the body. 

Stop taking it for granted. It’s amazing. 

The appreciation will naturally untangle, loosen up, the attachment to the thought ‘body’, because the appreciation is indicative of you, awareness. 

 

 Assumptions to inspect and dispel; that it’s possible to experience nothing / the truth. This is an illusory perspective from an assumed separate self, separate of, nothing / the truth. 

 

 

More relevant, because far more intimate and immediate, is not recognizing the emotion presently experienced and why the acknowledgement of the next two feels relieving. The answer is yourself, and the true nature of, you, felt (so to speak) when unfettered of thought which are discordant to you, the true nature of you…  which acknowledging emotions is / does. 

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Orb said:

@Phil  I'm so tired of going in circles with this.(in the back of my mind I hope it does)

If you’re tired of the circles, acknowledge you aren’t physically running in circles.

 

The experience is that of thought loops. 

A thought loop has two components.

One component is the separate self of thought / a self referential thought. 

The other is anything else. 

 

In this specific instance, that something else seems to be enlightenment. 

 

So in this case both components are thoughts about you. 

And neither of the thoughts are true. 

There is no such thing or experience of, a true thought. 

 

 

It’s soooooo much easier to acknowledge the emotions and use the scale. 

Unless one is stubborn and enjoys the feeling of resistance, and the effect it has in all of one’s creating. 

Such a one is illusory. 

[Orb]

@Phil the mirror point is great. I'm just gonna keep meditating seated on a chair, for some reason when I sit on the cushion it feels unnatural but when I sit on a chair it actually feels relaxing. 

 

Sometimes when I talk with you there's an expectation/assumption that I'll get to the bottom of suffering and liberation will unfold immediately, yet it always goes back to acknowledging meditation daily and letting go of beliefs, therefore it is not an immediate realization.

 

5 minutes ago, Phil said:

It’s soooooo much easier to acknowledge the emotions and use the scale. 

Unless one is stubborn and enjoys the feeling of resistance, and the effect it has in all of one’s creating. 

Such a one is illusory. 

Ugh this is often forgotten. 😤 emotion right now is frustration. 

[Orb]

@Phil the non-reactivity point is also great and was also forgotten! 

 

Seated meditation here I come! 

 

This reality or whatever you wanna call it is so confusing, it feels similarly to the discussions I've had in the dating section of the forum where there's so much loopiness and contradiction. 

 

I'd rather just quiet down, meditate, acknowledge emotion, and maybe journal. 

[James123]

3 minutes ago, Orb said:

@Phil the mirror point is great. I'm just gonna keep meditating seated on a chair, for some reason when I sit on the cushion it feels unnatural but when I sit on a chair it actually feels relaxing. 

 

Sometimes when I talk with you there's an expectation/assumption that I'll get to the bottom of suffering and liberation will unfold immediately, yet it always goes back to acknowledging meditation daily and letting go of beliefs, therefore it is not an immediate realization.

 

Ugh this is often forgotten. 😤 emotion right now is frustration. 

 

 

 

[Phil]

16 minutes ago, Orb said:

the mirror point is great. I'm just gonna keep meditating seated on a chair, for some reason when I sit on the cushion it feels unnatural but when I sit on a chair it actually feels relaxing. 

Progressively… 👍🏼

 

16 minutes ago, Orb said:

 

Sometimes when I talk with you there's an expectation/assumption that I'll get to the bottom of suffering and liberation will unfold immediately, yet it always goes back to acknowledging meditation daily and letting go of beliefs, therefore it is not an immediate realization.

Directly… 

Is that 100% bullshit?

Therein is immediate realization. 

[Phil]

45 minutes ago, Orb said:

Ugh this is often forgotten. 😤 emotion right now is frustration. 

the non-reactivity point is also great and was also forgotten! 

Feel the relief in acknowledging the next two. The dots will connect. What naturally arises and is felt doesn’t need to be remembered. Acknowledgment is enough. 

Appreciate the guidance. Seriously, how great is that? God’s got your back, always lookin out for you and what you want to create, and you don’t even have to ask. It’s always present. 

 

42 minutes ago, Orb said:

@Phil

 

Seated meditation here I come! 

 

This reality or whatever you wanna call it is so confusing, it feels similarly to the discussions I've had in the dating section of the forum where there's so much loopiness and contradiction. 

 

I'd rather just quiet down, meditate, acknowledge emotion, and maybe journal. 

In non-aversion all is revealed naturally. Those could be thought of as caring for, respecting, and loving the body. These are enlightened activities. 👍🏼 

[Someone here]

@Phil might be off topic..but you speak about "Source " in your jargon a lot ...

What exactly is the source of reality ? If its me then thats solipsism?  Aren't you me and me you?🤔

[Phil]

9 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Phil might be off topic..but you speak about "Source " in your jargon a lot ...

What exactly is the source of reality ?

Me. 

 

9 minutes ago, Someone here said:

If its me then thats solipsism?

Solipsism is dogmatic delusion just like any other ism. 

 

9 minutes ago, Someone here said:

  Aren't you me and me you?🤔

Kinda depends how that’s meant. There’s no you. 

 

Perfectly on topic. 🙂

 

[Someone here]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

Me

Two proplems :

1- that means solipsism is true . Forget about the label and the "Ism " which indicates that its a school of thought or a belief system..see the implications instead : if I am the ultimate source of reality (God basically) then that means only me exists ..everything else that appears to not be me are actually fractions and offshoots of me . Just like in a dream at night.  I appear to be a finite dream character and there are "other " finite dream characters bedsides me ..but the reality is that I am the entire dream .

2-you say there is no such thing as "me " or " I " to begin with.  Like here:

9 minutes ago, Phil said:

There’s no you. 

 

[Orb]

@Phil thank you. Non reaction is the real deal. 

 

It occurred that part of the mindfuckery is that the relief or absence of suffering makes no sense. 

[Blessed2]

@Someone here What would be the opposite of solipsism?