Forza21
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Posts posted by Forza21
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i had the exact same problem, until i saw thoughts like:
"i'm frustrated on this meditation!"
"i just sit this many hours and nothing happens! This is stupid!"
"It's a waste of time!"
"I can't be present!""It's pointless!"
"I'm not sure if i'm doing this right..."
"I don't know what to do... "
"I'm angry!"etc.
Those are just thoughts.
if a thought appeared, "i'm the king of Scotland" would you believe it?It's the same with "anger" thoughts, they just appear and seem to be about "you". But they are not. It's just pure energy in consciousness, no different from leaf falling.
It's tricky because it's in first person. Thoughts already decided what you feel. It already told you that "you are angry right now." It's completely random, and what makes a difference is believing in it vs letting it go.
It's also hard because, it seems like those thought-voice is in "your head". But is it really? Where are thoughts? try to find them.
Also, it's good to inquire, and being ruthless honest:"What are my expectation from this meditation?"
"What do i want to change after i mediate?"
Often, "ego" gets angry, when meditation doesn't meet those imaginary expectations. It's a part of this work to let this go.
And also...
If you are angry/confused right now - just let it be that way. Maybe it's a proper way to see the world right now, from these lenses? See, what it can teach you. All emotions can be your guidance, if you let it. -
Just now, Dima said:
There is no mind that pull attention to thinking, there is just believing in thinking. See thinking as birds singing, the task is stop listening to birds (do not react) that don't feel good, just let them go, pass by.
but who believes in thinking?
i'm not being picky, i just can't grasp it still, what's the difference between being conscious of thoughts vs unconscious
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For me, meditation when you feel really terrible is most fruitful.
it's a wonderful time to inquire, for example :
What is suffering?
What do i actually feel without thought narrative about it?
is this experience good or bad if i don't think about it?
What thoughts cause my suffering?
What is thought?
what you can notice, that suffering melts like ice cub in the sun, when seen through lens of awareness...😄
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12 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:
I've heard this before. "Do not lie. Always tell the truth."
Why? Why is this important?
For me, you can't really work through illusion, when you are not brutally honest with yourself.
And lying to others = lying to yourself
We all have some masks, acting, plays, and it's all created, to gain something, mostly from others. But the problem is, without authenticity, we can't really know what's real, and under those masks.
For example, i'm willing to admit, that i'm an egoistic creature, and most of my life, is oriented towards gaining pleasure/avoiding MY suffering. Even if it comes to helping others, i'm doing it, because it gives me good feeling/other benefits. (mostly.) and not because i'm so good and altruistic. (but i of course want others to think about me that way.)
Seeing that, it's really undermining ego mechanism, which runs mostly on lies and deceptions. We just basically learn to know our "enemy" and see it through.😉 -
10 hours ago, Phil said:
With respect to the do nothing practice, focusing on asking or proposing questions is doing something.
Self Inquiry as a meditative practice is asking what am I… letting any arising thought come & go… and only feeling for the ‘answer’. It’s done with a clear mind, without focusing on questions or thoughts as well.
Basic meditation is focusing on feeling the breath, and is often preliminary to do nothing & self inquiry on the progressive path because it allows the mind to clear.
When questioning or inspecting the thoughts, also question the thoughts that there is a mind, thought addiction, and someone working at it. 🙂
Yes, it's either "do nothing" or "self inquiry".
If it comes to self inquiry - does it really matter what question do i ask? it seems, that is only "play" for "seeking mind" and it all leads to the same sense of present. The question seems totally irrelevant.
The hardest part is all "doubt" thoughts, not so easy to notice 🙂 Or is it a thought... 🤣
10 hours ago, Phil said:When questioning or inspecting the thoughts, also question the thoughts that there is a mind, thought addiction, and someone working at it. 🙂
haha, yes. Right. It's next identity, of "the one who's addicted to thoughts" therefore, another thought believed.😅
It's weird and very paradoxical.
At first, it seems, like there's someone, who goes into a journey towards enlightenment.
It's weird, because the one who's observing thoughts is thought itself.
So thoughts, somehow, become aware of itself, right?
There's not even "a person" who believes/not believes in these thoughts, and yet it really seems that way, due to activity of thoughts.
It's only consciousness moving.
So there's not even choosing when "do i put" my lens of attention?
So "do -nothing" meditation is simply the way it is, and it's what's really happening. But it takes time to click?😅
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38 minutes ago, Phil said:
How’s daily morning meditation & expression journaling going?
Might want to tweak your techniques.
I meditate daily, for at least 1h a day in the morning. Sometimes, when i have time, up to 2-3h during the whole day.
It's either "doing nothing" meditation, or self-inquire. Here i can't stick to one routine.
So it's either asking " who am i?" and staying with "i'm sense". Or just watching thoughts and labeling them as "thought"/ let go OR ask "to whom does it thought arise?" and look there, trying to find this "I". Sometimes i inquire on "what is thought?" or "what is sound?", or " what is thought made of?" "who hears this sound?" "Where's the boundary between me/sound?" , "what is sensation?" "etc.I can't really stick to one question for a long time, so i constantly change inquiry questions. I also inquiry a lot during my day.
As to expression journaling, it's going good, i constantly try to find hidden beliefs this way. For example, " i'll try to be present" or "i'll observe thoughts from now on..." those are thoughts, which were unnoticed for a very long time.
I also see, that there are some very subtle thoughts, as for example, image of my face/body when i talk to someone or even when i mediate. Those are really hard to notice.
So i work at this, but this unraveling and addiction to "mind stories" are really strong...
1 hour ago, James123 said:Yes. Attachment with the thoughts can be stopped. You learned the thoughts within almost 6 years (since your birth?, and getting attached more day by day. So you will have to meditate, contemplate, help, love, tell the the truth, not lie, don't be selfish, share etc.. as much as it
Thanks! True, it's been almost 30 years mind identified, so it won't take a day, for sure... 😉
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Thoughts are so tricky.
"From now on i'm going to present!" -
"Oh i'm doing so good being at the moment"
" I can't stay present"
"I'm going to observe thoughts..."
" I have 1000 thoughts !"
" I can't find peace"" I need to be here and now to get enlightenment"
Thoughts thoughts thoughts, all mind, mind, mind.
Mind has tremendous power to pull your attention to thoughts.Does it ever end? Do thoughts become less addictive at times? How?
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3 minutes ago, Orb said:
Yes! The silence sought by the "seeker" is actually silence appearing as the thoughts that appear to be about a seeker.
Its all silence, or Awareness.
Awareness effortlessly appears as all of this, so awareness is not inside something, nor does it hold things within it, it simply is appearing as everything.
When a thought arises, I suggest feeling into the thought, recognizing that theres no observer or observed, recognize that the thought is another "thing" awareness (you) is appearing as.
Lol, it's so strange, i i really heard this billion times, but now i feel it in my "guts" it's amazing! ❤️❤️❤️ -
I was meditating like always, "watching" thoughts.
it's like
"i wonder if i see the next thought""oh it's a thought"
<silence>
"recent random talk with friend appears"
"oh it's a thought"
<silence>"it's getting peaceful"
"oh it's a thought"
<silence>etc.
and suddenly it hit me.
Who the holy fucking shit, is the one, trying to watch thoughts? are we two?
What are thoughts made of? What is thought? Who is the one, watching it?
i've heard this inquires million times, obviously, but for the first time it really, really "clicked". Like it really resonated for the first time, it wasn't conceptual at all.Than, it felt as the seemingly "gap" between observer of thought and observed thought closed, and it's all the same stuff
it was a tremendous sense of silence and peace, so natural, and enjoyable.
As it doesn't make any difference if there is a thought or not, it's the same, empty, knowing space. it's "I". It doesn't matter if it seems like "i'm consciousness of thought" or "in thought stream", it's all the same "knowing".
I have no idea if it was awaking or whatever i don't feel any different, and there's no any change at all.
Honestly it is so stupid simple, that it feels dumb to even write about it 😄 but for the first time it's not next concept, it was pure experience, and it makes all the difference.
❤️ love. -
2 hours ago, Phil said:
In thought… ‘it’, which is infinite, or, the infinite self, infinite being… can seem to be a finite experience in a past, and then there can seem to be a separate self present, an I which experienced an it. But if “it” was experienced in a past, what is aware of the thought, now? Where is a past, now?
Excellent pointers.
There's wondering - is there a permanent shift into "who you take yourself to be" and there's no more falling into illusion of thoughts/mind identifications?For example, if one's sees that Santa Claus isn't real, there's no more falling into believing this stuff. The same "logic" should be applied into "no self" realization, right?
so if one's goes back&forth into believing self-referential thoughts, it means there wasn't permanent "breakthrough" ?
How about you? Do you still sometimes go back into illusionary mind identification world?🙂2 hours ago, Mandy said:If you stop eating excessively sugary foods, foods that are a little bit sweet (like fruit) become much more enjoyable. After a while, sugary cereals or sodas are disgustingly sweet and make you feel crappy after consuming. You become more sensitive to taste and how you feel, whereas before you didn't notice. In the same way, once you're really on the path anything off the path feels very very off. You just know it's off. It's not that things have gotten more intense or more hard but that you have honed in to your guidance system, you are noting more readily when a thought feels off.
Which is all really awesome.
Wonderful. It's almost like:
1)"glimpse"-> here how reality really is
2)"fall back into mind identification"-> and that's what's preventing you from seeing it clearly... 😉 the more you suffer/discord, the harder it gets to ignore... -
1 minute ago, James123 said:
Why is it sticky?
That's a good question.
I think it's because of beliefs that some "thoughts" are about a separated entity called "me" which in reality, isn't true, it's like mistaking reflection for the mirror. Before, during and after thought, i am.
What do you think? -
21 minutes ago, Phil said:
There is a ‘both’ in the two different replies I gave. Also admittedly, text is limited communicatively as it’s purely dualistic and meaning is arising ‘at your end’ so to speak, so dot connecting or ‘ah ha’s’ are more difficult to come by if / when the same meaning is arising to the words read.
There is a ‘going deeper’, though there isn’t a separate self which goes deeper, or even moves or goes anywhere at all. Also, yes, practices like meditation most often have a place. Slows the activity of thought, and the attachment fizzles out, and there is more clarity, and nuances of thought, belief & attachment are more readily seen.
Also, there is inspecting the thoughts. That can be challenging when so to speak, one is already well into a ‘thoughts story’, ‘attached’ or believing the thoughts. It is easier and more efficient to talk with someone with the point being seeing through the thoughts / beliefs, and or writing the thoughts and being able to visually see them.
There is also expression, like expression journaling, and releasing any underlying ‘ah ha’s’ as to why certain / same thoughts or thought patterns continue to arise, touching on what one is identified with or as. Therapy is very similar.
Of course there is also the ‘direct’ path, or, that there is no ‘path’ from ‘you to you’.
What stands out is inspecting who the thoughts are about, and or self inquiry.
it's funny, at first when i saw what you write about thoughts/beliefs, it wasn't understandable for me at all. I got maybe 10% of the things you said, now "i" really start to feel in guts what you write/transmit.
For me, it was a thought/belief, that thoughts can't really alter reality/present moment that much. It was like " Phil damn it, It's just thoughts, stop overestimating that! Just tell my about your beliefs about reality!! operating in the background of experience 😉
I was so fucking wrong, as thoughts reveal by itself, it really starts to change perception/everything.yeah, it's really the way. ❤️
And even that what i wrote previously - there's a big assumption that there's a "me" which attention can by grabbed by thought - which is just another thought. When recognized, it really creates a big gap in mind - which feels kinda like "death" so in a moment "thinking operatus" starts to work hard to fill it. But unrecoginzed - it really feels that way. That illusion is really, really convising, unless you look really close.
"i" keep going until it gets comfortable :)
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On 8/13/2022 at 10:28 PM, James123 said:
@Forza21 look at the situation from this perspective. You are already what you are as always been. When attachment happens with so called thinking, you are frustrated, because you are in the illusion again. Illusion can never solve the illusion. That's why you are exhausted. Long sitting in the darkness and silence is the key for begging of understanding "how the thinking works". Thinking can never be solved with thinking.
Yes, you are right. I like the mind like a pond analogy - just leave water to settle by itself, don't touch the surface, you only make it more rough but still it's stiiicky.
On 8/14/2022 at 4:17 AM, Phil said:It’s essentially the result of not having receded ‘to’ pure consciousness, and therein, believing this full receding has occurred. When the apparent finite mind recesses into itself, there is isness, then void, then the true nature, or, pure consciousness, then Being, then the spheres from the “perspective” of Being. There isn’t a word / language for this, so “perspective” is used in lieu. Another way to put it is Being and what Being is being via vibrationally appearing as.
When the finite mind recedes and void is “experienced” - but void is not ‘crossed’ or ‘broken through’, all which constitutes a or the conscience is exposed, but is not disintegrated. This can be an extremely uncomfortable & jarring ‘place’ on the path. Then the finite mind, still holding belief in subject & object reality, and inherently therein, identity… claims the substance of itself as an experience known by itself. But void is not the ‘substance’ of, or that which is most purely speaking, what is appearing as, the finite mind.
@phil thank you ❤️
Yeah, it's so paradoxical to talk, it really is the case, that as soon as you try to say something about it, you are back into thoughts/concepts/beliefs.
It's like when there's void, the thoughtless space, the apparent separated-self puts the heaviest "guns" to "catch" the attention into thoughts/beliefs again.
There was a thought even " damn i lost it again, i need to ask about it on forum" - which is hilarious, because it's a seeker-thought, and a belief, that someone else has better answers... but yeah, it grabbed "me".
So "stickiness" of thoughts loses it's powers, as soon as thought is recognized as a thought.
But it really seems hopeless sometimes, because it's like never-ending journey to disentangle from it, and i noticed after some time how clever thoughts were.
It's like sometimes thoughts operate on very subtle level, on the background of experience, and it's not as easy to see. For example, when one's trying to focus on "foot sensation", there's a subtle image of the body, not so easy to grasp, because we are so used to it.
So, there's nothing more to do, than just practice, practice, practice? ❤️
21 hours ago, Phil said:Sometimes it’s helpful to ‘break it down’, also, it’s sort of risky in a zen slap way. 🫢
Question that thought - who are you talking about? Who is separate of pure consciousness… which experienced pure consciousness… which recently had a glimpse… in a past? If that was pure consciousness… what is This?
Is the direct and actual experience… of a thought… about someone & a past?
Who? Who experienced “it”?
What is ‘there’? Look now, here - is a ‘there’ actually found?
Where is ‘there’?
Where is this one (which can’t ‘get there’) ?
“What prevents me”. Who, where, what - is that “me”?
”I know, that what prevents me”. Who, where, what - is that “I” which knows what prevents a “me”?
Who or what… “goes into” meditation?
Who is struggling?
Who is trying?
Who can’t observe?
Who can’t let “it” go?
What is “it”?
Who imagines “it” was peaceful?
What is “it”?
🤍
it's tempting to say " i got it" but "who's got it?" 😄 yeah, it's only this presence, and we can't really say anything about it. -
I recently had a glimpse of pure sense, "i am". Not as a "thought" but as a living truth.
i've experienced it, as i am this vast, spacious, no-thing, in which everything, including thoughts, appears, and disappears. It wasn't something special or mystical, in fact it was pretty neutral, but so enjoyable.
it was so easy to "rest there" and thoughts weren't a problem AT ALL as they appeared/disappeared in me, as me. It was so clear. That "isness" was self-validating, obvious. It was big peace and equanimity. There were many thoughts like "this can't be it" "it's boring" "look further" etc, but at that point, all thoughts were laughable, as i rested as this space, it all took place. The content of thoughts weren't believable at all. No solving, no trying, just noticing "thought&let go.
I can't "get there" since, and it's frustrating.i know, that what prevents me from this, is this thought/belief, that:
-There's someone to "get there"
-I'm not this already
So basically, it's believing in thoughts again.
But every time i go into meditation, there's this big sense of "struggle" and "trying" and i can't observe it anyhow, can't let it go, as i imagine how it was peaceful... It ends up in big frustration.
Any tips please?:) -
Recently i visited my "old place" i used to live most of my life, but i acted like i was still living there. Like i was still 20 years old ( i'm 30 now), and like i had the same thoughts which created "story of me", same problems, friends, etc.
While doing this, i forgot about my "current life situation" to the point of really freaking out, that all what happened "later" was just a "trip/dream/memory" and it never happened.
And it's pretty interesting, because the sense of "me" or "I" or "i am" is THE SAME no matter of your AGE/STORY/ LIFE SITUATION!
That sense of "i'm" is ageless!It's timeless!
All you experience is literally 6 things: visual, sound, sensation, taste, smell, and thought.
Nothing more.And it's THE SAME "knowing" or "substance" as you were 10/15/20 years old. And it will be the same all your life.
To get sense of that, just imagine that you are still teenager, still going to school etc, experience all those thoughts you used to have, and see, that it's stil the exact same "i am" .
Only movie/story/content of thoughts changes.But awarenes/knowing/sense of "i'm" is still the same.
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"I'm so present !
I'm so unconscious right now.
I'm so conscious during my day!
i can't stay present ..."
Those are all thoughts. I really enjoy playing with it.
When thought appears "OMG, i'm so helpless, i should be present, and i'm in thoughts again..."
you can recognize it as thought/let it go. Or play with it and "think" something different like:
"omg, i'm so good, i'm so present and i don't care about thoughts at all!!"
and see that it doesn't matter what content of thought seems to be, it doesn't change what you are/present moment.
from consciousness standpoint, it doesn't matter what you focus your attention on, thoughts and You is the same substance...
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@Phil was right, i started to religiously pay attention to beliefs i have, and it's amazing!
If thoughts are like flies, beliefs are like honey. That's why it's so sticky, and certain thought patters come again, and again, until false is recognized as false.So what expectation/beliefs do you have about self-realization?
i'll start.For example, simple, recent thought:
"i need to meditate more so i can get enlightenment. It will solve all my problems."it's beliefs:
There's separated "me" , which is apart from the thought itself
That "me" is "doing" something, (it's a doer)
That "me" travels through time (time is another thought)
That "me" wants to get something which it doesn't have now ( hence it believes in lack)
That "me" puts all hope in the future, which doesn't exist
That "me" believes that there are some problems, it has, and it needs to solve
That "me" believes the solution to those imaginary problems are in something called "enlightenment" which is another thought
Enlightenment is something „i can get”.
That "me" believes, that meditation is something which is separated, it's an activity which needs to be "done" by "it". ( Here quote from Rupert - meditation is something YOU ARE, person is something you DO)
Just wow. One thought holds this many beliefs.
If you want to share, just take on thought from your experience, and write all beliefs which are held to it 🙂
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I think, The one who seems to ask this question must perish. Exhaust the seeker, become questionless, get out the way. 🥰
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On 7/15/2022 at 9:44 PM, Phil said:
July 19th at 7pm eastern US it is…
Looking forward to it!
Please send me a private message through the forum with the email address to send the Zoom invite to (even if I likely already have your email address).
Thanks!
In my Europe time is midnight, and i cant this time, this late. Hope to catch you next time 🙂
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im in very similar place. For me its also the end of the inquiry. Is there a way to continue?
also it reminds me of:
„in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering” -
What do you think about it?
For me, it made perfect sense, based on what i've seen -
@Phil
Thank you Phil ❤️yeah...
you know, thanks to you, i finally realized, that I still pretty much duel in thoughts, concepts and beliefs.
This won't wake me up.
I still find so much comfort in "searching" and getting answers from others,
And this won't wake me up neither.
It's all a distraction from looking inside, from looking within, and searching for truth there.
I avoid fear and difficult emotions that way, but i can't run forever
You are so right. "Person" that fictional character "of my life" is in delusion of knowing the truth. Lol.
From now on, i shall give up all affords to get more knowledge, and focus on meditation, emotions scale, and dream-board.
I shall start to really pay attention to my inner-guru, and listen to those emotions.
I still can't understand, why i touch that damn stove!!! it burns every-damn-time!! How stubborn the man can be!😅I write this also as a message to myself, it's like a declaration, to give up harmful addiction/habit.
But it's the only way, to find out what is true myself.
It's sooo tempting to fall into this discordant thoughts, like it's soo " sticky"
it's a weird trick that consciousness plays on itself, i don't understand, why?
🙂
Love you Phil, ❤️
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On 7/4/2022 at 8:11 PM, Phil said:
Sounds great.
How’s the week of July 17 - 23 sound?
I’m in eastern US time, and can more or less do any day that week & any time, morning - evening.
Hoping you guys might use this thread to figure out what time works for everyone, given work, family, different time zones, etc.
I’m thinkin a group Zoom call, more or less q&a / discussion. Also thinking about recording it, and anyone who wouldn’t want their voice and or image recorded could type questions / comments.
What yall think?
yes! i think it will work, when you drop the straightforward time of meeting, here, or on website/youtube 🙂 i'm in!
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@Phil
Thank you as always, Phil. It really melts my heart every time, how much passion, time, and involvement you put, to all those answers here. You are like our father. ❤️
I just want you to know, that your movies, answers, and blog post, are always joy for me. So as "spirituality" i'm not referring to you anyhow. ❤️Yes. You are 100% right. Those are thoughts about separated self, which doesn't really exist, which are bugging me. Thoughts -> believes -> feelings.
and i know that, "it's just a thought" but it doesn't change anything right now.
Mostly:
Sadness:1. Thought that i know the truth and i don't like it. It was better not to know.
2. Thought that maybe i don't know the truth and i want to know, everything is meaningless without it.
3. I was so much better without spirituality, at least i believed it is all real, and i enjoyed it somehow.
4. If it's all the dream, it's all pointless, stupid, and meaningless.5. I don't know what and who is real, so why involve in anything?
Anger:
1. What kind of sick "God" would let me suffer like that? Why sick experiences like that?
2. What kind of sick "God" would make me believe that world is real at first, just to take it away from me.
3. What kind of sick "God" would play me like that, what the fuck is that, some sick game of psycho?
4. I don't like being "me"5. Why i can't know the truth, why i bother with living like that and not "knowing" what "game" i'm playing....
6. I don't know what and who is real, so why involve in anything?
Fear:
1. How come being alone (i'm not talking about solipsism even, but still, it's just GOD even if it comes with 7 blion different finite form) in infinity is joyful?
2. I can't die if i suffer, that's terrible...3. All that suffering in the world, that's me also...
4. I'm alone on the human level, whenever i go it's just me, myself, and "i" and i don't accept myself. I feel like being stuck in "being me".5. I don't know what and who is real, so why involve in anything?
yeah... With that, it goes all kind of harmful behaviors...
All that phrasing especially from Vedanta, like " all is dream" " it's not real" "there's nobody" etc feels like a shithole, and i don't understand what's the point of existing like that.
How come is all love, joy, and pleasure, when it looks like that?
I used to have small things which made me feel good. Games. Sport. Books. Relationship. Friends.
Now there's literary 0 of those. Because of the thoughts activities as above, which overlays everything i do.
I try to mediate, observe it, expressing journal. But i can't work, do something for passion, i sit all day doing nothing, and i feel like " i need to find answers" . So i search, read about spirituality, and it goes back to the shithole...
I feel like nothing "wordly" would bring me pleasure, unless i "get enlightenment" and know the truth. And it won't come, i know.
Thank you ...
Thoughtless state vs busy mind - what's the difference?
in The Path
Posted · Edited by Forza21
I've been to a silent zen retreat lately. And during it, the mind calms down, to the point of no thoughts at all. The sense of peace and clarity is really immense. Meditation is so easy, and "staying in presence" is just a natural state to be. Everything flows on its own accord, and it's obvious, there's no doer and no thinker of thoughts.
When i'm back to so-called "normal life" mind gets busy, and it takes many hours of sitting, to get this clarity of no-thoughts. Of course, it's possible, and it's always there. I know that it's always available. But still, it "feels" really different. But why?
Since i'm not the mind, it shouldn't really matter if there are many thoughts or no thoughts, right?
So what's the difference between thoughtless state vs many thoughts state?
What's the difference between "thinking" and "no thinking?"
I'm aware of thoughts like "oh i had it, and it's gone now!" "i don't have that clarity anymore" " i've lost this sense of presents" etc.
i know it's just another story/thoughts. But still, there's a great difference between amount of thoughts during retreat, and daily life. Like busy-thought-train vs very calm, a few thoughts clouds passing by. And i don't know why and how to approach it.