My thoughts of Leo and actualize.org. What do you think?

[Jonas Long]

...in any interaction you are basically accepting "playing duality"

Nobody wants to play monopoly with the kid who, as soon as they start losing says "whatever, it's just a dumb game!"

Edited April 17, 2022 by Lester Retsel

[Annie]

I work with magick and I'm not the worst.  Just an average person all-around.
I got initiated into it when I my auto-immune disease first flared up in 2016 and and got very real about myself, I journaled hardcore for like four months, then went through the fear of death, found God, had a few more awakenings, had a shamanic initiation and am learning about magick, or "The Word", or... what would you call it intention.  People are doing magick all the time, they're just not aware of how powerful the imagination can be.

 

I'm still an initiate, so I couldn't really instruct anyone on what to do and my knowledge is incomplete in a lot of areas, the more I go into this aspect of spirituality, the more I realize that the other side has a complicated system of its own, that through downloads, I can decipher, but it takes time, work, dedication and I go into trance states to get there - I have autism and this disorder helps with the alternate states of being.

 

I don't work with other magickal folks, because they don't seem to have a clear understanding of the darker aspects of spirituality and this tends to make me question some things, because it really is a double edged sword and you gotta learn about both if you want to be proficient.  My initiation told me that I needed to share Love, and spread Love - that this is a energy that can orient other souls in the right direction regardless of what they know spiritually.  

 

So I work on my ego - which is still there, of course, because death is scary... so it's still there, and I am instructed it will take a few lifetimes before I am the shaman I am meant to be - that this life is just for gathering knowledge, Light, Love and transmuting personal problems into solutions.  I've never been in a magick circle before - most spiritual circles aren't my thing, I tend to do my own thing.

This was the song that was playing when I was initiated.  It happened during a non dual experience, so there really wasn't much to it - I just got downloaded the info and wrote it down and proceeded with my life.  No amazing fancy thing, just a quick download and a jolt in the heart.

I think some of you here just like talking smack - and don't wanna look at it or work on it.  You should, though.  Because you can't go inwards, and focus outwards at the same time - and that's all it says to me is "I don't wanna look inwards at why I am addicted to talking smack."

 

He's the worst.  She's the worst, that guy does this, this girl did that...

I don't feel like I am any better, because I see that I still have so much work to do on myself that when I criticize, it is either ego... which I need to work on, or a genuine desire to help the other person see something - which is... still ego, but at least it's well meaning.

 

[Aware Wolf]

26 minutes ago, Arug Oel said:

@Aware Wolf

Well, one could do that with anything, including this website.

 

Not as easily with an organized system. 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Arug Oel said:

Really? The average fundamentalist Christian is worse than a standard "neo-Advaitan" or are you just exaggerating?

 

It would seem that way, but in my experience, and I live in the Bible belt, Neo Advaitins still come out way, way ahead. 

 

26 minutes ago, Arug Oel said:

Do you have any valid criticisms? Or not?

 

Of Daniel Ingram, tons. He's delusional. He gets a ton of things wrong. He's careless with facts. He's like a Leo Gura but for Buddhist audience. 

 

for Ingram, see what Bhikkhu Analayo, a very well regarded Theravadan monk and scholar,  writes about Ingram and his claims and maps, in a 2020 article (available online). It's a wicked takedown: 

 

These (Ingram’s) assertions lack a grounding in reality and appear to be simply the result of the author being misled by his own obsession with maps into constructing fictitious meditative attainments and then needing to find ways to authenticate them.
Daniel Ingram is of course free to call any experience he has by whatever name he wishes, be this an insight knowledge or a level of awakening. The point is only that the conclusions he presents pertain entirely to the realm of his own imagination; they have no value outside of it. The main problem here is that his rather strong claims are unfortunately taken seriously by some scholars and practitioners.
-- Analayo

 

Just critiquing the book cover of Ingram's Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha (or MCTB), the book cover (first edition), By Daniel Ingram, Arahant, M.D. I don't see how having an M.D. degree contributes to a dharma book anymore than about anything else. Also one of the primary Buddhist insights is indeed not-self. Someone should understand Anatta well, but here's an arahant, putting a pompous title THE ARAHANT front and center, with MD. Ego, much? And there's no evidence for such an exxagerated claim. None at all. Daniel claims that a Mahasi Sayadaw teacher vetted him, but the teacher in question now denies this. Daniel in a Guru Viking says, well, it was like his teacher said after Daniel gave a meditation report "Well, there's arahants who are only arahants on retreat." To Daniel Ingram, this is evidence that the teacher is subtly saying Daniel is an arahant. This is how Burmese hint at it. Nope. I think it's Daniel delusion that anytime someone uses Arahant in a sentence, Daniel think it applies to him. Also, what the monk said is just general wisdom and a caution. Sometimes people have wonderful retreat experiences but it all falls away in the real world. 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Arug Oel said:

You can overestimate your attainments in any system, not just spiritual ones and definitely not just the ones you've come to dislike. But occult movements, such as Thelemic organizations like the OTO, etc. are incredibly hierarchical the same way the Catholic Church is. Nobody making nonsense claims in those communities would be taken seriously the same way you couldn't randomly declare yourself a cardinal and have the pope acknowledge that.

 

True. If it's an organization, there's barriers to attainment claims. I don't know much about Magick. Daniel Ingram proclaims himself a master of magick. He gives in an interview with Guru Viking youtube that he is a wizard and has battled other wizards. He says it's like World of Warcraft, with a boss phase. He also gives as evidence that in a dream, he made a rock disappear in his hand. In a dream. Okayy. 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Aware Wolf

[Jonas Long]

9 minutes ago, Annie said:

I work with magick and I'm not the worst.  Just an average person all-around.
I got initiated into it when I my auto-immune disease first flared up in 2016 and and got very real about myself, I journaled hardcore for like four months, then went through the fear of death, found God, had a few more awakenings, had a shamanic initiation and am learning about magick, or "The Word", or... what would you call it intention.  People are doing magick all the time, they're just not aware of how powerful the imagination can be.

 

I'm still an initiate, so I couldn't really instruct anyone on what to do and my knowledge is incomplete in a lot of areas, the more I go into this aspect of spirituality, the more I realize that the other side has a complicated system of its own, that through downloads, I can decipher, but it takes time, work, dedication and I go into trance states to get there - I have autism and this disorder helps with the alternate states of being.

 

I don't work with other magickal folks, because they don't seem to have a clear understanding of the darker aspects of spirituality and this tends to make me question some things, because it really is a double edged sword and you gotta learn about both if you want to be proficient.  My initiation told me that I needed to share Love, and spread Love - that this is a energy that can orient other souls in the right direction regardless of what they know spiritually.  

 

So I work on my ego - which is still there, of course, because death is scary... so it's still there, and I am instructed it will take a few lifetimes before I am the shaman I am meant to be - that this life is just for gathering knowledge, Light, Love and transmuting personal problems into solutions.  I've never been in a magick circle before - most spiritual circles aren't my thing, I tend to do my own thing.

This was the song that was playing when I was initiated.  It happened during a non dual experience, so there really wasn't much to it - I just got downloaded the info and wrote it down and proceeded with my life.  No amazing fancy thing, just a quick download and a jolt in the heart.

I think some of you here just like talking smack - and don't wanna look at it or work on it.  You should, though.  Because you can't go inwards, and focus outwards at the same time - and that's all it says to me is "I don't wanna look inwards at why I am addicted to talking smack."

 

He's the worst.  She's the worst, that guy does this, this girl did that...

I don't feel like I am any better, because I see that I still have so much work to do on myself that when I criticize, it is either ego... which I need to work on, or a genuine desire to help the other person see something - which is... still ego, but at least it's well meaning.

 

Relax, I practice it too, did you see my video?  

[Annie]

1 minute ago, Lester Retsel said:

Relax, I practice it too, did you see my video?  

Nice, not yet, I've just been keeping up with the thread.   I know the kind of people you are talking about; people who don't use their intent properly but for ego-reasons and they get in over their head, because they don't work on the darker aspects of magickal practice - it turns into this one sided love and light process - or kids who practice black magick that don't know what they're getting into... or people who don't know the different terminology, ect, ect.  But it's part for the course, most of us are newbs.
I'm relaxed, just smoking a bowl and enjoying writing.  Sometimes I am not relaxed, so I'll be honest about where I'm at.  I'm chill, but also wanting to discuss other things - and just don't want the thread to turn into a fingerpointing mess - it doesn't look good for introducing other people here if the most active thread is one dissing Leo - and if we just keep at it, like for days... weeks... what then?

At some point there should be more things to discuss.

And I don't wanna end up being a hypocrite by point out Leo's flaws, and then not working on my own stuff - in which case he is less flawed than I am - so I feel kinda dirty implying that there is something "wrong" or needs working on with anyone because I am so not perfect and so average that I don't have much of a leg to stand on.

 

That's cool that you work with magick, though.  I'll certainly check out the video in a few.  ❤️ Not a lot of people in non-dual circles practice it, so I always feel a little out of the loop.  Cheers.

[Jonas Long]

2 minutes ago, Annie said:

Nice, not yet, I've just been keeping up with the thread.   I know the kind of people you are talking about; people who don't use their intent properly but for ego-reasons and they get in over their head, because they don't work on the darker aspects of magickal practice - it turns into this one sided love and light process - or kids who practice black magick that don't know what they're getting into... or people who don't know the different terminology, ect, ect.  But it's part for the course, most of us are newbs.
I'm relaxed, just smoking a bowl and enjoying writing.  Sometimes I am not relaxed, so I'll be honest about where I'm at.  I'm chill, but also wanting to discuss other things - and just don't want the thread to turn into a fingerpointing mess - it doesn't look good for introducing other people here if the most active thread is one dissing Leo - and if we just keep at it, like for days... weeks... what then?

At some point there should be more things to discuss.

And I don't wanna end up being a hypocrite by point out Leo's flaws, and then not working on my own stuff - in which case he is less flawed than I am - so I feel kinda dirty implying that there is something "wrong" or needs working on with anyone because I am so not perfect and so average that I don't have much of a leg to stand on.

 

That's cool that you work with magick, though.  I'll certainly check out the video in a few.  ❤️ Not a lot of people in non-dual circles practice it, so I always feel a little out of the loop.  Cheers.

I practice chaos magick specifically, I have several videos about my approach as well as videos on other things...I began my channel specifically to call out some if guras bs that really bothered me, and the truth is someone asked me to come and participate on this forum in this particular thread, im not really active on here otherwise.  Buy leave me a comment on the video if you like, we can maybe talk more, if you want, im probably not really gonna be active on this forum much.

[Arug Oel]

Quote

Not as easily with an organized system. 

Right . . . No, it's actually easier because your delusions can be institutionalized and supported by people you socialize with. My cardinal-pope example shows that false attainments are difficult in organized systems by the definitions of those organizations. That makes it more difficult for people in a regimented structure to lie about their what level of the organization they have reached, however, it also happens that some systems are entirely constructed out of false attainments. Like somebody on top of a sand dune claiming that they've summited Everest or something.

Quote

It would seem that way, but in my experience, and I live in the Bible belt, Neo Advaitins still come out way, way ahead. 

Then you might be biased in the possible case your Bible-land home is where you were born and raised. That can blind you to the obnoxiousness, I'm sure. But I don't know.

Quote

These . . .

The maps are correct, something I can attest to. Somebody that disapproves of mapping is actually just deluded beyond repair from dogmatism. He's just objectively wrong, whatever his religious credentials are.

Quote

M.D.

Because it also relates to clinical-type contexts--like psychoses--and he has an interest in developing these mapping models for slow integration into such contexts. 

Quote

He also gives as evidence that in a dream, he made a rock disappear in his hand. In a dream. Okayy. 

Have you ever made a rock disappear in your hand in a dream? No, if you wanted to, you would not be able to. You would need years of practice to even consider doing this. Possibly.

[Jonas Long]

9 minutes ago, Arug Oel said:

Right . . . No, it's actually easier because your delusions can be institutionalized and supported by people you socialize with. My cardinal-pope example shows that false attainments are difficult in organized systems by the definitions of those organizations. That makes it more difficult for people in a regimented structure to lie about their what level of the organization they have reached, however, it also happens that some systems are entirely constructed out of false attainments. Like somebody on top of a sand dune claiming that they've summited Everest or something.

Then you might be biased in the possible case your Bible-land home is where you were born and raised. That can blind you to the obnoxiousness, I'm sure. But I don't know.

The maps are correct, something I can attest to. Somebody that disapproves of mapping is actually just deluded beyond repair from dogmatism. He's just objectively wrong, whatever his religious credentials are.

Because it also relates to clinical-type contexts--like psychoses--and he has an interest in developing these mapping models for slow integration into such contexts. 

Have you ever made a rock disappear in your hand in a dream? No, if you wanted to, you would not be able to. You would need years of practice to even consider doing this. Possibly.

My goodness, you are as annoying and shitty as your backward namesake.  Possibly.

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Lester Retsel said:

I practice chaos magick specifically, I have several videos about my approach as well as videos on other things...I began my channel specifically to call out some if guras bs that really bothered me, and the truth is someone asked me to come and participate on this forum in this particular thread, im not really active on here otherwise.  Buy leave me a comment on the video if you like, we can maybe talk more, if you want, im probably not really gonna be active on this forum much.

Nice!  I do, too - I tend to follow my intuition on what will work for me and what won't and it's usually pretty accurate.  I'll check your videos out; sorry to hear you won't be sticking around, I wish more people were interested in the paranormal and occult.  I'll leave you a message on one of your vids.

Yeah, Leo probably could use a bit of calling out, to be one hundred percent honest, I had watched one of your vids like, a while ago and you made some really good points that can be hard to see as red flags when you're sitting in the middle of it - I just never really got into his work too much so I kind of just used his forum for shadow work and did my own thing; so I don't really have an fan mindset or anything.  He needs to professionalize his approach on his forum, and there's not much more to be said about that and I don't think the kind of people who frequent the forum there will tell him the truth - he seems to know he has some stuff to work on, and maybe the videos will help..

It helped me, in the past I got trolled once and I just took their advice that they were trying to hurt me with and applied it.  And I had a spiritual awakening, because people that are oriented to see what is wrong in others can really see your worst side for sure, I've gotten into that as well in the past when I was heated about someone's behaviour - I'm actually here to work on that 'cause it's still ego even if you're right.  He probably does need to be called out, but the person to do it will probably have a shadow, just like I did, about that.
When I did it, even if I was right in the moment, it felt wrong and dirty because I still have work to do, and I knew it came from my ego.  A part of me wanted to hurt the people I was calling out and a part of me really felt that it shouldn't be me, because of the position I was in - did I ever even have the right?  No, not really.
I suppose that... I feel like calling him out could help.  It helped me when I was ego-stricken.  It always does; honesty and the right mirror can be a godsend in disguise.  But doing it to another - that's also a shadow on the part of the person calling the individual out.  I just wonder if it is worth the time?  It could be; some of his comments were really pretty bad.  But it pulls you down into the mud, too.  Been there, done that.

[Jonas Long]

9 minutes ago, Annie said:

Nice!  I do, too - I tend to follow my intuition on what will work for me and what won't and it's usually pretty accurate.  I'll check your videos out; sorry to hear you won't be sticking around, I wish more people were interested in the paranormal and occult.  I'll leave you a message on one of your vids.

Yeah, Leo probably could use a bit of calling out, to be one hundred percent honest, I had watched one of your vids like, a while ago and you made some really good points that can be hard to see as red flags when you're sitting in the middle of it - I just never really got into his work too much so I kind of just used his forum for shadow work and did my own thing; so I don't really have an fan mindset or anything.  He needs to professionalize his approach on his forum, and there's not much more to be said about that and I don't think the kind of people who frequent the forum there will tell him the truth - he seems to know he has some stuff to work on, and maybe the videos will help..

It helped me, in the past I got trolled once and I just took their advice that they were trying to hurt me with and applied it.  And I had a spiritual awakening, because people that are oriented to see what is wrong in others can really see your worst side for sure, I've gotten into that as well in the past when I was heated about someone's behaviour - I'm actually here to work on that 'cause it's still ego even if you're right.  He probably does need to be called out, but the person to do it will probably have a shadow, just like I did, about that.
When I did it, even if I was right in the moment, it felt wrong and dirty because I still have work to do, and I knew it came from my ego.  A part of me wanted to hurt the people I was calling out and a part of me really felt that it shouldn't be me, because of the position I was in - did I ever even have the right?  No, not really.
I suppose that... I feel like calling him out could help.  It helped me when I was ego-stricken.  It always does; honesty and the right mirror can be a godsend in disguise.  But doing it to another - that's also a shadow on the part of the person calling the individual out.  I just wonder if it is worth the time?  It could be; some of his comments were really pretty bad.  But it pulls you down into the mud, too.  Been there, done that.

Yeah, I stand by what I've said but I've stopped doing those types of videos and I won't be anymore.  I understand what you're saying about the shadow.  For me, it helped me to know things I want to avoid if I'm going to be doing videos teaching things in the future, and people I've known have been hurt by people like him.  Its not a place I want to remain, but I felt the need to say the things I said.  Now it's time to balance it out.

[Annie]

8 minutes ago, Lester Retsel said:

Yeah, I stand by what I've said but I've stopped doing those types of videos and I won't be anymore.  I understand what you're saying about the shadow.  For me, it helped me to know things I want to avoid if I'm going to be doing videos teaching things in the future, and people I've known have been hurt by people like him.  Its not a place I want to remain, but I felt the need to say the things I said.  Now it's time to balance it out.

Cool, that's good to hear and I'm sorry that people you know have been hurt by him.
What kinds of things do you want to teach?  I'd be interested in learning more about magick, different approaches to it and how it has helped/changed life.
 

[Jonas Long]

8 minutes ago, Annie said:

Cool, that's good to hear and I'm sorry that people you know have been hurt by him.
What kinds of things do you want to teach?  I'd be interested in learning more about magick, different approaches to it and how it has helped/changed life.
 

Not by him specifically, but people who do the kinds of things he talks about doing(pickup etc) or have been taken in by charlatans like him to regret it later.  Yeah, I plan on focusing on magick going forward on my channel.  And related topics like tarot, Qabalah, astrology etc.

[Annie]

1 minute ago, Lester Retsel said:

Not by him specifically, but people who do the kinds of things he talks about doing(pickup etc) or have been taken in by charlatans like him to regret it later.  Yeah, I plan on focusing on magick going forward on my channel.  And related topics like tarot, Qabalah, astrology etc.

That sounds right up my alley, I'll take a look.  Good luck with your future projects.

[Aware Wolf]

4 hours ago, Arug Oel said:

Right . . . No, it's actually easier because your delusions can be institutionalized and supported by people you socialize with. My cardinal-pope example shows that false attainments are difficult in organized systems by the definitions of those organizations. That makes it more difficult for people in a regimented structure to lie about their what level of the organization they have reached, however, it also happens that some systems are entirely constructed out of false attainments.

 

 

Good point. 

 

4 hours ago, Arug Oel said:

 

Like somebody on top of a sand dune claiming that they've summited Everest or something.

Then you might be biased in the possible case your Bible-land home is where you were born and raised. That can blind you to the obnoxiousness, I'm sure. But I don't know.

 

The last religious conversation I remember having was from Jehovah's Witnesses who came by. I think it's the politicians that are the real problem with religious type legislation, ordinary people -- not so much. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Arug Oel said:

The maps are correct, something I can attest to. Somebody that disapproves of mapping is actually just deluded beyond repair from dogmatism. He's just objectively wrong, whatever his religious credentials are.

 

Oh so his maps were correct for you. That's interesting. So ... how far did you get? 

There's a lot of maps out there. Culadasa's people think they're correct, Ken Wilbur has a model and maps. Sadhguru has levels of consciousness, Keith Raniere of NXIVM has levels, Scientology has levels. Heaven's Gate suicided so they could exit to the next level. Everyone of these have people that say they are correct and THE TRUTH. 

 

I think awakening experiences are often concept bound.  Yoga people have a yoga awakening. Zen people have kensho. Shamans get visits from spirit animals. If one likes Ingram, one may indeed find oneself going through Ingram's maps. It's too bad he emphasizes a Dark Night of the Soul so much because if someone is expecting that -- they may well get it. 

 

I found Ingram's maps convoluted and confused. They're often word salad. 

 

Venerable of Vivekananda who is of the same lineage as Ingram claims, says Ingram does a disservice to meditators who frequently self-evaluate their meditation according to Ingram's book and his map. Ingram himself warns in the 2nd edition for his fanboys to cease being "map spouting brats" (and whose fault is this?).  Venerable Vivekananda has been running a dharma center for decades. So ya, he has a ton of experience. To say that objectively he must be wrong to disagree with Daniel Ingram ... -- I don't know what to say. 

 

There's many other things I can criticize about Ingram's book, but one thing I am in disbelief over is Ingram's use of ordinary and trivial life experiences, including dreams, as evidence of high attainment. Let’s look at his story about his vision of green mushy demon-like creatures! Now, if this happened to me, I'd be reluctant, almost embarrassed, to bring it up to my teacher in a private retreat interview--much less detail it as an Insight in a book! It's trivial and pretty much textbook Makyo (illusion). Ingram instead sees how everything is both green mushy demons and fully enlightened Buddhas at the same time and labels it an Insight. But it's nothing any crazed meth-head couldn't mumble at me walking down the street: Hey You! Green mush demons -- and fairies! 

 

This isn’t an isolated incident. Let’s play a game -- I’ll give the Daniel dream or experience and you guess the Insight knowledge Daniel obtained: 1) a dream of a witch zapping things with her wand; 2) A dream of being a Gerbil on a wheel and seeing God; 3) Being on a hike, legs tired, shoulders hunched. 

 

It’s funny. Here’s a guy, a MD, so he’s obviously educated. He writes a book that’s readable enough. He delves into meditation maps and stages with technical fury. Yet, he gives the most juvenile responses for his Insight Experiences. What is this, a joke? You saw a witch? Little green men? Fairies? No joke -- Ingram gives watching TV as leading to high equanimity. 

 

This type of stuff drives legit teachers a bit batty. If one decides to claim any attainment based on Daniel Ingram's book -- legitimate dharma teachers will either laugh or eye you as being a possible problem.  Daniel Ingram students have a poor reputation at dharma centers. It's like someone bringing up Leo Gura as their guru and a top philosophical mind. It's a reverse barometer.  Fanboys of THE METHOD (mostly Ingram, Gura, and Culadasa) are often resilient towards instruction. They have trouble following directions and even center rules. Afterall, Ingram is an Arahant -- and who is this modest no-name dharma teacher to contradict what Ingram says? There's also a problem when the meditation teacher tells the student that they really are not such a high level of attainment. Often, they get upset or angry, so I'm told. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Arug Oel said:

Because it also relates to clinical-type contexts--like psychoses--and he has an interest in developing these mapping models for slow integration into such contexts. 

 

Maybe if he was a psychiatrist that might be true. But Ingram is an emergency room doctor. Say, aren't doctors supposed to have an over-size ego? Check. 

 

4 hours ago, Arug Oel said:

Have you ever made a rock disappear in your hand in a dream? No, if you wanted to, you would not be able to. You would need years of practice to even consider doing this. Possibly.

 

Naw. 

 

I do lucid dreaming. It's very do able. A month of practice and you're lucid dreaming and one can manipulate stuff. 

 

Maybe I'm a arahant-wizard like Daniel! 

 

It's funny, on the Guru Viking podcast Daniel has lamented that most people who contact him believing that they are a high stage of attainment are wrong. 

 

This is just like Leo Gura. Their own path to God or Arahantship was pretty easy. Modest amounts of time (Ingram achieved Arahantship in only 8 months with the longest retreat only 27 days). Ingram counts his dreams as evidence of passing high Buddhist insight stages. Leo boffs 5 MEO DMT and achieves God level consciousness. 

 

So other people can do the same right, that's the take-away. I mean why not? Why aren't there any other God Level consciousness on Actualized Org? 

 

But NOOOO -- Leo and Daniel will tell you that you're wrong, most likely deluded, "your awakening" is incomplete. Ther'es only room for Leo and Daniel at the top. Or like Leo with Connor Murphy (who was like Leo 2.0) -- Leo recognized the absurdity in others. Himself, not so much really. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Aware Wolf

[Ges]

9 hours ago, Faith said:

There was no twisting of meanings and deflecting of a point with a straw-man answer!

 

You seem so sure. Not really sure why 👒🥰🤩

 

9 hours ago, Faith said:

 You need to do some more of that self-reflecting stuff my dear

 

Self-reflection is exclusive to me, it seems. That's fine, it never hurt me anyway ⚓👦🍇

 

[Ges]

9 hours ago, Mandy said:

I think that a few people are thinking that he's a Leo voodoo doll. 

 

I am thinking there are a lot of dolls here 🚦✨

 

[Ges]

11 hours ago, Phil said:

I’m asking. I’m trying to understand what you’re saying. I can only be honest in telling you I don’t get what you’re saying. 

 

It looks like you are asking, but it also seems you aren't really. Probably it doesn't matter. Enjoy life, that's better 🤪🌐🔔

[Blessed2]

Maybe it would be better for there to be it's own thread about the mod team and Actuality of Being, for those who either wish to express gratitude and support, or doubts and criticism?

[Blessed2]

On 4/17/2022 at 6:43 AM, Faith said:

My take is that if Leo did try to form a cult it would be made up of mostly young men, because most women can barely stand him, my proof is the amount of women that would PM me complaining about his behavior when I was a mod there. His typical audience are men in their 20-30's. Many of which started watching him for his pick-up advice. 

Anyways, this whole thing isn't just an interest for Leo. It's also his career. Its how he makes his money! So, the more he convinces ppl that he's reached, and can continue to reach, "new levels" of consciousness, then the more views he will get on YT, more traffic will come to his forum AND  also ppl who will purchase his "secrets" for $1000 when he's done making it. It's all a way to keep you stuck, so you will never think you've arrive, because Leo says you haven't, which he says over and over in the videos I've seen. 

 

He has to keep himself "relavent" to his watchers or he becomes absolete. He needs to keep saying over and over how fantastic he is, how he has something that you dont have. You couldnt possibly have and that no other guru has, so ppl keep watching his shit, but I think ppl are seeing through this manipulation tactic. 

 

I don't think he is doing it for the money.

 

I think he like actually believes the stuff he says, at least most of it. He is not consciously manipulating. He's 'playing the same game' so to speak - he has just gathered others to play along. Sometimes the 'leader' is as (or more) bamboozled as the 'follower'.

[Faith]

3 hours ago, Ges said:

You seem so sure. Not really sure why

Because, I can read. 

 

3 hours ago, Ges said:

Self-reflection is exclusive to me, it seems

Yep, because you are trying to portray your opinions and assumptions, as facts and truly you seem like you are just trying to start trouble. Day after day now you are having a problem with someone, if not multiple someone's.