What's With this Law of Attraction stuff?

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

8 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

 

Why?

Because I am curious what your process of divining truth is. If you refer back to @Mandy earlier post then you will see that curiosity is a fun thing to explore.

 

If you don’t actually have a way of divining truth, thats fine. No worries!

[Aware Wolf]

1 hour ago, Blessed2 said:

@Adeptus Psychonautica You are taking a very scientific/rational approach here. It's fine, nothing wrong with that, but the problem is that LOA is not a rational, physical, scientifically measurable or figure-outable thing. Though that doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

No amount of logical deduction or rational arguments can touch it. It's like trying to make a brick wall disappear with logical arguments. This is not blind belief, wishful thinking or cult mentality. It includes, yet transcends rational thinking.

 

The thing is, we don't ask if Stoicism or Zen has any real world effects. Stoicism emphasizes it's a mistake to want something that is out of our control. Zen 

says zazen meditation is good for nothing. A lot of Buddhism seems to put desire as a large cause of suffering. We want what we don't have and we often don't want what we have. @Mandy's version of LoA seems to me to be seeking a healthy balance for not feeling guilty over a desire. Repressing desires can be spiritual bypassing. 

 

The question if Stoicism or Zen is true -- is not really the best question to ask here. 

 

LoA is doesn't have such a cautionary approach to desires. It's often portrayed as full blown wishful thinking. It's a hall pass for every desire a person might have. 

Perusing Youtube I found:

Oprah Winfrey | How to Manifest Anything You Want ( Law Of Attraction)

Abraham Hicks ~ Your Soulmate Will Enter Your Life - By Law Of Attraction

Manifest Money ONLY after learning this (law of attraction)

Say These 6 Words And Get Exactly What You Want | Law of Attraction

The Law of Attraction - Manifest while you Sleep Meditation

 

What differs LoA from Zen or stoicism is that LoA makes a claim that it can affect the real world through it's mechanism of "like attracts like". So LoA should be fair game. If it can affect the world, it can be measured. 

 

I had an office mate once who was a Mormon. After a few mohths and after becoming friends, I asked him if I could ask him questions about Mormonism. He agreed. So I asked about the Book of the Dead Egyptian papyrii that was translated by Smith wrong. I asked about the rampant plagarism in the Book of the Mormon (including mistranslations in King James also in Book of Mormon), along with some other tough questions. 

 

He didn't have an answer. But he said the Book of Mormon is the only book that guarantees if one prays about it -- one will get an answer on it's authenticity. Evidently people pray on it and get a message or feeling from God that the Book of Mormon is true. 

 

Thoughts are just thoughts. Feelings are just feelings. They delude us all the time. LoA makes a real world claim -- so put it to the test. Tell your stories. I thought my friend, who received free lunches for that week after asking for it, was interesting. Although when I tried it, there were no free lunches. 

 

Sam Harris says we should want our beliefs to be true and that basically the closer our beliefs map onto Reality, the less we'll be bumping into hard objects. We should constantly be checking for new evidence and better arguments. Harris says one of the best ways to do this is by having conversations with other people. We have to be open to others pointing out errors and Harris emphasizes we have to be open to the idea we could be wrong and that we're likely to be wrong a lot of the time

 

@Adeptus Psychonautica isn't out of line here. Prove it. And that's not asking him to prove it. You should be able to do so -- if LoA works. 

 

Are you going to get everything you want, like Oprah says, with LoA? Not bloody likely. Try it for yourself. What happens when it doesn't work? Is it because: 1) It wasn't your true desire 2) You can't create lack; 3) You must truly believe. Or like @Orbtold me, I don't really want LoA to work, so by it not working, LoA works! Ask for a Porsche to be manifested and next week post a photo here when it happens. Or if that's not up your alley, something -- something -- that is measurable and dramatic not to have just happened randomly. Your YouTube channel sub doubling next month (without doing anything special to increase sub count). Don't have a YouTube channel, manifest some money. Post a photo of the surprise check you receive. 

 

I use the bus analogy a lot. I believe a lot of people often go overboard on the whole nonduality / NO Self thing. If your nonduality doesn't include duality, it is incomplete. I'm careful that I say that reality is like an illusion. I don't say reality IS an illusion. We mistake the rope for the snake, and there may indeed be no snake, but that doesn't mean there's not a rope. Colors, say neurologists, may not truly exist either, and I'm with nondualists who say that what I'm seeing in that big red double decker bus barreling towards me, is not an accurate representation of reality. But it's good enough to not walk in front of. 

 

The Zen oxherding pictures express Emptiness beautifully with the Zen circle. There is no ox, no man. But in the tenth picture, there's a Return to the Marketplace. In Zen, you integrate your practice into the world. In Scott Carney's excellent book about a death on a Buddhist retreat, Death on Diamond Mountain, he begins by telling a tragic story of a young woman he knew, who was a student in a study Away International program, in Bodhgaya India and received teachings on Bodhicitta and Bodhisattvas from the FPMT. FPMT is a legit group and offers top-notch courses in Buddhism. The young woman killed herself by jumping from a roof of one of the buildings. She left behind a note, "I am a Bodhisattva.". Perhaps some teachings should come with a warning. Taking a page from Dr. Strangelove, "How I learned to stop nonduality posing and love duality."

 

There's a beauty to the Heart Sutra and nonduality. I like the movie The Matrix, and it's even true, when the kid says, There is no spoon! -- but there is a bus. 

 

 

 

 

[Mandy]

40 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

 

You might be assuming my kids are toddlers, they are actually teenagers. If they were writing something which required clarity of communication, and instead write something obtuse, then I would tell them that it was obtuse because I do not mollycoddle them.

I know they are teenagers because of another thread. I think when it comes to criticism, toddlers are far more resilient than teenagers. I don't mean to insult or question your parenting, just point out that just as in your example of teaching kids to safely cross a road, we want the best for our kids. 

48 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

No, I don't belittle my children nor question their intelligence. I welcome our disagreements and find great joy in seeing how fully formed and reasoned their opinions are, and how well they articulate and communicate them regardless of the actual topic.

So you appreciate them and that feels good. So why does that end with your kids? Why not do so with everyone? 

49 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

Its certainly not one of my primary parenting objectives, but conflict is a fact of life so my parenting has involved preparing them to deal with such things. As the saying goes - "Prepare the child for the road, not the road for the child".

 If my mom grew up amongst severe racism and sexism, should she prepare me for a world that is the same, when such things though still exist, have improved immensely? Should she teach me that men are pigs? Prepare me for that? Of would that make me more likely to be afraid of men and have unsatisfying relationships with men? 

53 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

No, I teach my kids that respect is earned, not expected.

I guess that by respect I mean love in a golden rule, "do unto others" sort of way. I do not at all believe that that has to be earned. I think it is a given and fundamental to being. 

58 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

The second one please, but we would really need to define what you mean by "brilliant loving people", because in my book that would not be people like you and Phil. I don't say that to be mean, I am literally just being honest.

To be honest this really made me laugh... a lot. What I mean is everyone... the post office lady, the person in the check out line, the mentally handicapped person, the child, literally ANYBODY you come across. Brilliant and loving. 

1 hour ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

Yeah... ummm... what if a unicorn... is just a donkey from the future? Seriously I have no idea where you are going with this

Matrix, Womb, Mother, (look up the etymology of those words if you haven't heard of this connection) Everyone is your kid. You are the Mother of everything. To be transparent, trying to appear to you interest in psychedelic but "The name “ayahuasca” originates from the Quechua language, where aya means soul or ancestors, and wasca (huasca) means vine or rope." Doesn't this all kinda go together, click? No? 

 

1 hour ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

If a person doesn't believe in what they want, then I would probably advise them to consider wanting something else.

Right, so you want to be surrounded by brilliant loving people. But I guess you're saying you should settle for something else. 

 

[Mandy]

21 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

If you refer back to @Mandy earlier post then you will see that curiosity is a fun thing to explore.

Don't you have a channel on psychedelics of all things??? This is so bewildering. 😆

[Mandy]

11 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

@Mandy's version of LoA seems to me to be seeking a healthy balance for not feeling guilty over a desire.

That is not my version of LOA. I'm saying feeeeeeel the desire. Don't think about why it isn't there or cannot be. Get to the heart of it. Feeeeel guilt. Don't think about the self that is wrong, directly feel it. It's not that you decide to not feel guilty over a desire, as if this were some sort of game you just got cheat codes to... figured out somehow. Thought claims to offer a cheat code, then it bastardizes the effortlessness of allowing and feeling as the cheating. 

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

LoA would be a belief, that is an immutable fact

A belief is a thought believed. Beliefs and facts aren’t immutable. 

1 hour ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

I did, it said LoA was a belief.

What is the ‘it’, in or of direct experience, which ‘said’ this?

1 hour ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

Everyone is trying to communicate ideas here, that is literally what the internet is. If you can't understand even that basic foundation of what is occurring, its fine . No worries! 

You might be trying to communicate ideas, but it is an assumption that everyone is. That that is what the internet is is an interpretation, and is also an assumption. 

1 hour ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

 

Honestly this thread is fucking amazing. I would never have guessed you guys would dig in so deep over the law of attraction - mind blown! 😀

‘Dig in so deep’…?

 That a ‘bad thing’ so to speak, looking deeper into ‘things’? 

 

[Mandy]

16 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

What differs LoA from Zen or stoicism is that LoA makes a claim that it can affect the real world through it's mechanism of "like attracts like". So LoA should be fair game. If it can affect the world, it can be measured. 

 

Nissargadatta says there IS NO real world. Why aren't you asking him for proof? There is no real world. There is no world. Adyashanti the end of your world.  WHAT A CON ARTIST. WHAT A SCAM! Why aren't we picking these apart right now? Yet you want to attract proof in your world? You do it for you. I told you, your honest desire is that you want to prove it wrong. You don't want to prove it right, and so you prove it wrong. For the sake of being the one who is right. YOU never, EVER, EVER get to be right. 

 

There is no you.

 

 Laugh. Say it's a cliché. You've never heard it before. To the person who keeps repeating/believing/thinking their own logic, a cliché would be particularly annoying. 

[Aware Wolf]

@Mandy Heaven's Gate had a lot of brilliant and loving people in it. A lot of cults are full of love. There's beliefs like LoA that can make a person feel good, feel empowered, feel the Universe is looking out for them. A lot of religions have a magic feather. All of them say and challenge people to see for themselves. As Jesus said, Come and see. There's a placebo effect. I like AA well enough -- but I"m also aware that studies challenge it's efficacy. There's a lot of beliefs and a framework around AA. AA can be considered a cult, fair enough, but it's a fairly healthy cult from what I'm aware of. I don't know of any religion that doesn't have delusions  in it, and that includes nonduality. 

 

We should be skeptical. We should examine our assumptions and our own beliefs. What are we stuck by? What mousetrap holds us? In Zen, there's a Gateless Gate -- are there more gates for us? The biggest gate might be the gate we don't see. If we're in a prison cell, but our is decorated, we have a blender for smoothies, and cable tv -- while we point out the fundamentalists flaws and weaknesses. -- and we don't realize that we're in prison too. Just a bit nicer one, with perhaps less suffering. 

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

5 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Don't you have a channel on psychedelics of all things??? This is so bewildering. 😆

 

Hang on, let me check... oh yeah I do! Aren't they those things which create a very noticeable change in a persons experience, the effects of which can be validated in multiple ways? Yeah that does ring a bell.

 

You know one of the common bits of feedback I get regarding that channel is that people appreciate the no-bullshit approach, while still having reverence for the transcendent, and that its communicated in a down to earth and effective way... nudge nudge... wink wink 😉

I totally agree about this being bewildering though.

[Mandy]

Just now, Aware Wolf said:

@Mandy Heaven's Gate had a lot of brilliant and loving people in it. A lot of cults are full of love.

The reason you start a cult in the first place is because your neighbor, the post office lady, the supermarket guy, your spouse, whatever... aren't good enough for you. 

[Aware Wolf]

56 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Nissargadatta says there IS NO real world. Why aren't you asking him for proof? There is no real world. There is no world. Adyashanti the end of your world.  WHAT A CON ARTIST. WHAT A SCAM! Why aren't we picking these apart right now? Yet you want to attract proof in your world? You do it for you. I told you, your honest desire is that you want to prove it wrong. You don't want to prove it right, and so you prove it wrong. For the sake of being the one who is right. YOU never, EVER, EVER get to be right. 

 

There is no you.

 

 Laugh. Say it's a cliché. You've never heard it before. To the person who keeps repeating/believing/thinking their own logic, a cliché would be particularly annoying. 

 

Does Nisargadatta claim anything like LoA? 

 

Adyashanti might have a book, The End of Your World -- but that's about post awakening practice. It doesn't mean there's no world. He doesn't mean that. 

 

It's absurd. I can't prove LoA. like I am challenged to (seek LoA in your own personal experience!) --  because I want to prove it wrong. So it won't work for me. Nice. Even though I've said, I'm willing to be fair and try. I'd love to win the lottery or have Scarlet Johanssen be my girlfriend. Or just a big check in the mail next week and finding my soulmate is cool too. I've challenged LoA advocates here to put into place some test, but no one seems interested, including yourself. 

 

I don't say there's no you. Yes, it's a cliche. What I say is what the Dalai Lama also says, there's no self like we think there is. There's no CEO self running everything and making all the decisions. Neurologists and brain scientists would agree here. Often modern research shows there's no CEO self, but scientists don't go as far to say there's no self. There's memory, continuity, and binding. There's may be no fixed self, but there's a construct.

 

Yes, I believe anyone who self investigates / meditates -- can -- and SHOULD see that there's something there. Memory, binding, continuity, etc -- are hardly nothing, are they? 

 

So it's misleading to say, There is no self. 

 

What I might say is there are different perspectives here regarding self and selfness. What I might draw out is perspectives towards the self held by Buddhists, and Advaitins. 

 

So you're wrong that it's annoying to me because as you say, To the person who keeps repeating/believing/thinking their own logic, a cliché would be particularly annoying. 

 

It really is annoying beause it's just one perspective, and often the people shouting it, are ignorant of other perspectives, and think they've found the one, sole, Truth (copyright). 

 

I'm not a fan of the logic that in an argument, says, I cannot be right --because -- because -- wait for it -- there is no "I". This is like the Jeff Foster's  nondual bears.There's a  bus? I can't possibly right here because "I" don't exist. Sigh. Does this also go for you and your beliefs? Your beliefs can't possibly be right because there is NO MANDY ?? Just asking questions. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Aware Wolf

[Aware Wolf]

I want to bring up a story where I tried LoA and enlisted @Mandy's help and it worked.

 

My favorite basketball team was playing Gonzaga in March Madness, Arkansas was a double digit underdog. No commentator was picking Arkansas to win. I asked Mandy to LoA Arkansas winning and congratulating Arkansas on it's victory.  I said if Arkansas won, I wouldn't slag off LoA anymore. I realized that this might be tough, really tough, as LoA is so eminently slaggable, so I put a time limit on it (for one month). 

 

It was a close and exciting game. In a touch & go fourth quarter, I even asked Mandy to exert a little more LoA vortex or whatever you delusional f*cks believe because it was a one possession game and the lead was changing hands. 

 

Arkansas won! Ya, Arkansas and LoA ! The next game was vs. Duke and I thought about asking Mandy again, but I didn't want to bother her. Arkansas lost this game. 

 

So, @Adeptus Psychonauticahere's my evidence. 

 

** I also asked for this Hollywood starlet to be my gf. But so far, it hasn't happened. I did see she got married and has had a kid since then. 

 

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

21 minutes ago, Mandy said:

So you appreciate them and that feels good. So why does that end with your kids? Why not do so with everyone? 

 

Parents typically have a different relationship with their children and immediate family than they do with anyone outside that group, does that really need explaining? Are you sobbing in grief at everyone around the planet who died in the last 5 minutes, are you feeling lust for everyone you don't know right now? I think I get where you are going with this "love everyone" approach, but that's not realistically how human beings work.

 

28 minutes ago, Mandy said:

If my mom grew up amongst severe racism and sexism, should she prepare me for a world that is the same, when such things though still exist, have improved immensely? Should she teach me that men are pigs? Prepare me for that? Of would that make me more likely to be afraid of men and have unsatisfying relationships with men? 

 

You are straw manning. Nowhere did I say that I am preparing my children for the same hardships that I grew up with, I am preparing them for the world as it is today, and giving them the tools to navigate it.

 

32 minutes ago, Mandy said:

I guess that by respect I mean love in a golden rule, "do unto others" sort of way. I do not at all believe that that has to be earned. I think it is a given and fundamental to being. 

 

I also believe real love is not given as a default outside of the family. Again we would have to get into how you define "love" because there is a clear gap between  the love I have for my fellow human beings, and the love I have for my wife and children - and the difference is orders of magnitude. "do unto others" is not love in my book, its just being a decent human being, love is something much deeper.

 

37 minutes ago, Mandy said:

To be honest this really made me laugh... a lot. What I mean is everyone... the post office lady, the person in the check out line, the mentally handicapped person, the child, literally ANYBODY you come across. Brilliant and loving. 

 

Well if your definition of "brilliant and loving" is anyone, and its a choice between being with them or being alone, then I guess I would take anyone, but that doesnt instantly make them brilliant and loving just because you say so. They might be complete fucking arseholes. 

 

I think your point here is falling flat.

 

42 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Matrix, Womb, Mother, (look up the etymology of those words if you haven't heard of this connection) Everyone is your kid. You are the Mother of everything. To be transparent, trying to appear to you interest in psychedelic but "The name “ayahuasca” originates from the Quechua language, where aya means soul or ancestors, and wasca (huasca) means vine or rope." Doesn't this all kinda go together, click? No? 

 

Everyone is not my kid. Again I get what you are reaching for but the answer is no. I will endure extreme pain, suffering, and hardship for my kids - I do not do that for other kids, and neither do you. 

Yes I am aware of the translation of ayahuasca, no it does not make your point any more coherent. If you are getting at some notion that psychedelics should somehow invoke an import of ideals like those which you claim to hold (I don't think you actually do) then that is just incorrect, and again highlights some cultish ghosts in the machine

 

51 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Right, so you want to be surrounded by brilliant loving people. But I guess you're saying you should settle for something else.

 

I am surrounded by brilliant loving people so I am not settling for anything. You keep straw manning farcical scenarios based on some notion that love or relationships is a blanket phenomenon. That isn't the case for me and I don't believe it is the case for you - prove me wrong by sheltering homeless people in your home as if they were your kin, whatever clothes your children are wearing go buy the same thing for 10 orphans as if they were your own right now, give passionate love to the next consenting stranger you happen across - why settle for a world with anything less! 

 

49 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Nissargadatta says there IS NO real world. Why aren't you asking him for proof? There is no real world. There is no world. Adyashanti the end of your world.

 

Ummm... Nissargadatta is kinda dead, and if i get the chance to talk to Adyashanti I will certainly ask him for you - should I put that on my dream board?

 

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

blah blah blah blah blah

 

Exactly, glad you finally came around!

So we finally agree then that LoA is a load of shit 👌

[Mandy]

2 hours ago, Aware Wolf said:

 

Does Nisargadatta claim anything like LoA? 

 

He had some of the most generous teachings (by this I mean, he was direct and to the point but really covered some ground doing so) and YES there are a lot of fantastic parallels to the essence of LOA. 

 

2 hours ago, Aware Wolf said:

Yes, I believe anyone who self investigates / meditates -- can -- and SHOULD see that there's something there. Memory, binding, continuity, etc -- are hardly nothing, are they? 

They are mind, and in direct experience this is no mind, but the appearance of thought. Bering in the matric is taking oneself to BE the mind or a self, not seeing that again directly, mind/self is passing thought. 

 

2 hours ago, Aware Wolf said:

I'm not a fan of the logic that in an argument, says, I cannot be right --because -- because -- wait for it -- there is no "I". 

Look beyond the logic. Logic is again... passing thought. 

[Aware Wolf]

39 minutes ago, Mandy said:

He had some of the most generous teachings (by this I mean, he was direct and to the point but really covered some ground doing so) and YES there are a lot of fantastic parallels to the essence of LOA. 

 

Okay. Let's grant that he does this. What have we gained? This is an argument from authority. I could counter most spiritual masters I've read give no truck to LoA. If it's a universal truth, an immutable law, one might think more masters would teach it.  All of them. 

 

Nisargadatta is usually labeled as a Advaitin Vedantan. Traditionally Advaita Vedanta would have no truck with law of attraction. 

 

Most people when they hear Law of Attraction, think The Secret and think of it as Californian New Age wishful thinking. They've got their crystals out going over their astrology charts. 

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Mandy said:

They are mind, and in direct experience this is no mind, but the appearance of thought. Bering in the matric is taking oneself to BE the mind or a self, not seeing that again directly, mind/self is passing thought. 

 

So memory, binding, continuation are what ? They are mind, and in direct experience they are no mind?  -- you're losing me. 

 

I don't think you've considered mind  enough. Acceding to there is a mind, thought, continuity, binding, etc -- isn't being in the matrix at all. It's seeing things as they are. i don't know where you're going with this either, but if you're trying to say, memory, continuity, and binding -- are just thoughts -- I don't know what to say. We're going down a rabbit hole where nothing outside can ever be real -- because it's all just thoughts. It's nihilistic. 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Look beyond the logic. Logic is again... passing thought. 

 

Not everything in the mind is just passing thought. Nor should it be passed off as just passing thought. We've got a mind and it can be useful to reason things out. We do this all the time. When you drive, you reason things out. You don't pull out in front of a bus with nothing to spare. You may reason that running a red light isn't wise. There's no color, there's no red, and there's no self. Sure. But don't routinely run red lights. Although sure again, thinking that running a red light is a bad idea -- is just a thought. 

 

If our root problem is ignorance, then reason / logic can certainly be the way out of our delusion. This is what Advaita Vedanta seeks to do. To seek to look beyond any logic can be a pitfall. It has to be done appropriately. Logic and reasoning tells me that Leo is not a god. Logic and reasoning tell me that Leo cannot cure all world diseases. Logic and reasoning tells me that you cannot manifest everything you desire. You're probably with me on two of these three. If somone makes a claim, they should be able to back it up. Leo couldn't. Claims presented without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. 

 

One of the red flags of cults is getting people not to question, not to reason, and allude there's a higher truth that what can be reasoned. Facts no longer matter -- people that bring up inconvenient facts are brought down -- that it's not a fact at all -- you're only thinking thoughts about a belief that something is a fact. It's nonduality gaslighting. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Aware Wolf

[Mandy]

2 hours ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

 

Parents typically have a different relationship with their children and immediate family than they do with anyone outside that group, does that really need explaining? Are you sobbing in grief at everyone around the planet who died in the last 5 minutes, are you feeling lust for everyone you don't know right now? I think I get where you are going with this "love everyone" approach, but that's not realistically how human beings work.

Love feels like love. Love is known by how it's felt directly in the moment. Love feels good. Sounds dumb, sounds simple. Kinda has the potential to rock your world though. Lust is not love. Doesn't feel like love. So not love. Grief is not love, doesn't feel like love, feels bad, is not love. You can have a concept that you love someone, but that ain't it. It's never going to satisfy or fulfill, so then we mistake stuff like grief and lust for it. Love is known directly by how it feels. 

2 hours ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

You are straw manning. Nowhere did I say that I am preparing my children for the same hardships that I grew up with, I am preparing them for the world as it is today, and giving them the tools to navigate it.

"As it is today". The most fair, and beautiful and safe world we have raised children in to date, or a world where there are horrific school shootings? There is conflict, and conflicting opinions and viewpoints everywhere, it is all just what you focus on. "As it is today" means I should "prepare" my daughter to make far less money than men. Obviously I teach my kids basic safety, I teach them to walk where the safe route IS, not where the cars ARE, and I also teach them to focus on their dreams, not the unfair "reality" they are presented with. 

2 hours ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

I also believe real love is not given as a default outside of the family. Again we would have to get into how you define "love" because there is a clear gap between  the love I have for my fellow human beings, and the love I have for my wife and children - and the difference is orders of magnitude. "do unto others" is not love in my book, its just being a decent human being, love is something much deeper.

Love feels like love. Love is known directly by how it feels. Depths, levels and magnitudes are only possible because love is prior to them. "Do unto others" is the recognition that others are not separate from you, and that feels like love. Your psyche is completely open, it has no borders, and in direct experience you are all. One thought that claims possession of a body and perspective from the body makes it seem as if there is body/mind/world. Then if you are the body, "love" is thought to be another thought reserved only for those who share your "blood" (genetics) or body(sex partner). Kinda weird, bizarre and gross to think about actually. Yeah, families are great, having people around who have no choice but to put up with your bullshit is pretty great. Yeah, money, sex, time might go first to these people and that's fine, but, don't we care for our own bodies first? Don't you put on your own oxygen mask first, even before your kid's? It is the immediacy of now, the directness that we are aligning with with this kind of common sense instinctive "selfishness". Love those you are with. Love yourself. 

 

2 hours ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

Well if your definition of "brilliant and loving" is anyone, and its a choice between being with them or being alone, then I guess I would take anyone, but that doesnt instantly make them brilliant and loving just because you say so. They might be complete fucking arseholes. 

Complete fucking assholes don't exist, there are people and some people are complete fucking assholes in the moment. It would be exhausting to be that way all the time. 

2 hours ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

Everyone is not my kid. Again I get what you are reaching for but the answer is no. I will endure extreme pain, suffering, and hardship for my kids - I do not do that for other kids, and neither do you. 

I've given birth twice but I still don't understand the extreme pain, suffering and hardship thing, and blaming your kids as the source of that. Doesn't seem loving to put that on them, but then again love isn't what we think. If a bouncehouse collapses, and I'm there, I grab or assist whatever kid is right there instinctively. I don't search around for my own on the other side of the house to make sure they got out, and leave the one trapped right in front of me. I instinctively assist. When I was breastfeeding, milk let down no matter what baby was crying in the grocery store, and a baby across the road crying would wake me up with a start in the middle of the night. "My" kids is secondary to the "instinct" of motherhood. I don't posses my kids. 

 

2 hours ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

Yes I am aware of the translation of ayahuasca, no it does not make your point any more coherent. If you are getting at some notion that psychedelics should somehow invoke an import of ideals like those which you claim to hold (I don't think you actually do) then that is just incorrect, and again highlights some cultish ghosts in the machine.

My point is, you take issue with my talking about curiosity and open mindedness, but uhmmm "don't do drugs man" is one of the BIGGEST examples of going with what one knows and has been taught to be true over open mindedness and curiosity. Maybe you didn't grow up with a cop in your school teaching you about DARE? What do psychedelics DO for you, really?

 

2 hours ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

Ummm... Nissargadatta is kinda dead, and if i get the chance to talk to Adyashanti I will certainly ask him for you - should I put that on my dream board?

That comment was for Wolf because we had talked about those things in the past. Curious though, what's your take on all of what Nissargadatta and Ramana, Rupert Spira teach, nonduality, etc?

[Mandy]

1 hour ago, Aware Wolf said:

 

Okay. Let's grant that he does this. What have we gained? This is an argument from authority. I could counter most spiritual masters I've read give no truck to LoA. If it's a universal truth, an immutable law, one might think more masters would teach it.  All of them. 

 

Nisargadatta is usually labeled as a Advaitin Vedantan. Traditionally Advaita Vedanta would have no truck with law of attraction.

Nisargadatta was Nisargadatta. Not even that. He naturally tended to use traditions and terms most familiar to his culture. The term LOA originated in America. However Jesus' teachings are full of it. "Faith as small a mustard seed", "to whom much is given..." "say to this mountain move over here" "love thy neighbor" etc. LOA is just a label to communicate it. It's interwoven into many, many teachings. 

 

1 hour ago, Aware Wolf said:

So memory, binding, continuation are what ? They are mind, and in direct experience they are no mind?  -- you're losing me. 

 

You experience thoughts, yes? Do you experience a mind? Or is your experience of mind always the experience of a thought? 

1 hour ago, Aware Wolf said:

I don't think you've considered mind  enough. Acceding to there is a mind, thought, continuity, binding, etc -- isn't being in the matrix at all. It's seeing things as they are. i don't know where you're going with this either, but if you're trying to say, memory, continuity, and binding -- are just thoughts -- I don't know what to say. We're going down a rabbit hole where nothing outside can ever be real -- because it's all just thoughts. It's nihilistic. 

At risk of sounding like a complete asshole 🤷‍♂️ nihilistic is a thought. It could be.... magical? Peaceful? Freeing? Pure open potential? But not if we THINK it's nihilistic. Then it will BE nihilistic. Love and peace, freedom and potential are neither real nor unreal. 

 

1 hour ago, Aware Wolf said:

 

Not everything in the mind is just passing thought. Nor should it be passed off as just passing thought. We've got a mind and it can be useful to reason things out. We do this all the time. When you drive, you reason things out. You don't pull out in front of a bus with nothing to spare. You may reason that running a red light isn't wise. There's no color, there's no red, and there's no self. Sure. But don't routinely run red lights. Although sure again, thinking that running a red light is a bad idea -- is just a thought. 

We aren't talking about knowingly trying to defy what you know. There's two in that, there's conflict in that, etc. What we are talking about is pointed to by the word emotion, love, feeling. When I feel bad about myself, or bad about a situation, or bad about someone else, I'm focused on something or some aspect unhelpful. And liberation is knowing that that something is just a thought. Knowing how traffic lights work does not feel bad, it feels good, clarifying. You cannot remove feeling, which is direct, and now, from the equation to try to understand it. 

1 hour ago, Aware Wolf said:

Logic and reasoning tells me that Leo is not a god.

Leo Gura is a god like all cats and trees are obviously gods without having to state so, and the speck of dirt on my floor is god. Is he a special god no. Is he a god? yeah. Leo, god, cat, tree, dirt, thoughts, thoughts, thoughts. 

 

1 hour ago, Aware Wolf said:

One of the red flags of cults is getting people not to question, not to reason, and allude there's a higher truth that what can be reasoned. Facts no longer matter -- people that bring up inconvenient facts are brought down -- that it's not a fact at all -- you're only thinking thoughts about a belief that something is a fact. It's nonduality gaslighting. 

People can believe in things like "climbing the ladder", "it's a dog eat dog world", (or I saw a Jordan Peterson post today about the importance of being cruel to others), and they believe these thoughts against the direct guidance of feeling. There's a lot of importance in not being duped or deluded for people who believe these things, but those beliefs are prior to the attraction of experience being duper or deluded.  Feeling is never fooled. Awareness is never fooled. Never stolen from. Never taken advantage of. Never lacking, never dumb, never cruel. One who is thinking they are a thought is easily fooled. That's the first transgression, thinking oneself to be a thought. The ultimate gaslight is the light of awareness, which also reveals all, and all thoughts like moths go to die there. 

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

15 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Love feels like love. Love is known by how it's felt directly in the moment. Love feels good. Sounds dumb, sounds simple. Kinda has the potential to rock your world though. Lust is not love. Doesn't feel like love. So not love. Grief is not love, doesn't feel like love, feels bad, is not love. You can have a concept that you love someone, but that ain't it. It's never going to satisfy or fulfill, so then we mistake stuff like grief and lust for it. Love is known directly by how it feels. 

Ah, thanks for explaining what love is, I had wondered what was motivating me these last few decades  🙄

 

The grief and lust examples were not related to love so try not to mash everything together. If you actually follow the conversation we were talking more about parenting, and then you seemed to want to make the point that everyone should be treated the same
 

You said "Do you belittle them (your kids) and question their intelligence when they disagree with you?"

I said "No, I welcome our disagreements and find great joy in seeing how fully formed and reasoned their opinions are"

You said "So you appreciate them and that feels good. So why does that end with your kids? Why not do so with everyone?"
I said "Parents typically have a different relationship with their children and immediate family than they do with anyone outside that group"

 

I mentioned grief and love as examples of how we do not take feelings from within the group, and universally apply them across the entire collective. Love is no different in my opinion. Even in specific example of love then I gather you disagree, but again I would doubt your real world actions reflect this. 

 

35 minutes ago, Mandy said:

"As it is today". The most fair, and beautiful and safe world we have raised children in to date, or a world where there are horrific school shootings? There is conflict, and conflicting opinions and viewpoints everywhere, it is all just what you focus on. "As it is today" means I should "prepare" my daughter to make far less money than men. Obviously I teach my kids basic safety, I teach them to walk where the safe route IS, not where the cars ARE, and I also teach them to focus on their dreams, not the unfair "reality" they are presented with. 

 

OK, now we are going into the territory of "Mandy, WTF are you talking about?" 

All I said was "Nowhere did I say that I am preparing my children for the same hardships that I grew up with, I am preparing them for the world as it is today, and giving them the tools to navigate it". How you get from that to this little rah rah wimmin iz oppressed, world unfair speech is beyond my comprehension.

 

I mean I hear you, it sounds like the US sucks... erm... go fix it with your dreamboard or something - Why are you telling me this stuff? I live in Switzerland and its fucking amazing, and hey - I got here without any LoA! If your world sucks so bad then maybe this LoA thing isn't really working out for you?

 

49 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Love feels like love. Love is known directly by how it feels. Depths, levels and magnitudes are only possible because love is prior to them. "Do unto others" is the recognition that others are not separate from you, and that feels like love. Your psyche is completely open, it has no borders, and in direct experience you are all. One thought that claims possession of a body and perspective from the body makes it seem as if there is body/mind/world. Then if you are the body, "love" is thought to be another thought reserved only for those who share your "blood" (genetics) or body(sex partner). Kinda weird, bizarre and gross to think about actually. Yeah, families are great, having people around who have no choice but to put up with your bullshit is pretty great. Yeah, money, sex, time might go first to these people and that's fine, but, don't we care for our own bodies first? Don't you put on your own oxygen mask first, even before your kid's? It is the immediacy of now, the directness that we are aligning with with this kind of common sense instinctive "selfishness". Love those you are with. Love yourself. 

 

I mean we already covered this. I disagree that what you are describing is love, I think the love one feels for their immediate family is observably different and manifests entirely different behaviours, and while I understand you have a different perspective I doubt your actions back up your words.

 

57 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Complete fucking assholes don't exist, there are people and some people are complete fucking assholes in the moment. It would be exhausting to be that way all the time

 

Mandy, WTF are you talking about?

 

Do I need to specify the parameters of any given statement? Is this even relevant to the overall point that there are some people I would not want to be around?

 

I mean FINE... sure maybe there are no 24/7 complete fucking arseholes, but if a persons dominant personality traits and behaviours manifest as them being an arsehole for the majority of the interactions, then I think its fair to label them a complete fucking arsehole. Granted this is done with the caveat that they are not doing arsehole stuff 24/7, just like rapists arent constantly raping 24/7 - but you know, if they do enough raping then its not controversial to call them a rapist. 

 

1 hour ago, Mandy said:

I've given birth twice but I still don't understand the extreme pain, suffering and hardship thing, and blaming your kids as the source of that. Doesn't seem loving to put that on them, but then again love isn't what we think. If a bouncehouse collapses, and I'm there, I grab or assist whatever kid is right there instinctively. I don't search around for my own on the other side of the house to make sure they got out, and leave the one trapped right in front of me. I instinctively assist. When I was breastfeeding, milk let down no matter what baby was crying in the grocery store, and a baby across the road crying would wake me up with a start in the middle of the night. "My" kids is secondary to the "instinct" of motherhood. I don't posses my kids. 

Mandy, WTF are you talking about?

 

I'm not BLAMING anything on my kids...wuuuuut??? I'm sorry to say it mate but your reading comprehension is fucking awful. Yes people instinctively help each other, and yes womens tits lactate around crying babys, and what was the point here?
 

1 hour ago, Mandy said:

My point is, you take issue with my talking about curiosity and open mindedness, but uhmmm "don't do drugs man" is one of the BIGGEST examples of going with what one knows and has been taught to be true over open mindedness and curiosity. Maybe you didn't grow up with a cop in your school teaching you about DARE? What do psychedelics DO for you, really?

 

Mandy, WTF are you talking about?

 

As we previously covered I don't live in your mental country, so no we didn't have cops in our schools - I'm guessing DARE is some drug thing? You are aware though that the rest of the world ISN'T the USA? I get that some Americans struggle with that concept but i figured you were one of the more worldly ones - my bad.

This doesnt even make sense. You were jabbering on about the translation for ayahuasca, and from that I am supposed to know that you were thinking of "don't do drugs" as social programming? Your mind is jumping all over the place.

If you are genuinely interested in what psychedelics do for me then you are welcome to watch some of my videos where I talk about it - knock yourself out.

 

1 hour ago, Mandy said:

Curious though, what's your take on all of what Nissargadatta and Ramana, Rupert Spira teach, nonduality, etc?

 

That's quite a broad question, what is my take on ALL OF WHAT 3 DIFFERENT PEOPLE think on nonduality. Yeah I'll pass on that minor ask for tonight

[Phil]

@Adeptus Psychonautica

 

If you’re genuinely interested in seeing loa, one way that might be helpful is the ‘turn around’ aspect of Byron Katie’s The Work. It’s very insightful, healing and clarifying. It’s a way of seeing projection by ‘turning round’ what is believed about others, to realize it’s what’s coming from you. If you can just look at some the things you’re saying, and really notice this is not what anyone else is saying… 

 

...naive, diluted, ridicule, bullying, girl, nonsensical, mental gymnastics, shallow, mundane, murder, rape, see their child hacked into hamburger meat, fluffy new age criteria, you are bordering on caricature, you are not well travelled, survivalist savage, everyone is sick, learned new age folk, poor savages, caveat & subclasses of loa that are necessary, I want a million bucks and a blowjob, enjoy your cancer, nitpicking, pedantic, hypocritical, matey, new age chaps, flakey, correct, meandering, enervating, obtuse, you do not understand, new age bollocks, claims you are making, fucking dumb, you frame yourself as the smart guy, you are condescending, I hate to brag but… I am doing pretty fucking amazing chief, loa is completely feeble, toxic positivity echo chamber slurping each other’s assholes, these ideas are certainly stupid, arrogant, it’s just who we are, I am clearly very good at dissecting arguments, pissy, flimsy, mate, incorrect, demonstrably bullshit, negative correlation, the opposing view is irrational, highlight the holes, my rational perspective, flakey ideas, religious thinking, buying into an idea, close minded, prude, teach grandmother to suck eggs, those who espouse, rather mundane, silly, Leo fangirl, preposterous egotistical nonsense, magical or alternative perspectives, I will continue to call a spade a spade, your claims, just put two & two together, you claim, your responses are tedious and unhelpful, law of fucking attraction, I’ll unpack it for you, my more rational approach, your lack of critical thinking, if you’d have been more savvy, you might have spotted, your muddy thinking, you don’t see the reality, questionable bullshit, his take is not relevant, mindlessly absorbing new age woo, shite which you seem prone to, you in some kind of advantageously smug position, you are pulling stuff out of your arse, you have no idea what you’re talking about, he was talking out of his arse, you should try it, you made mistakes & you should learn from them, just use words mate, you are, inane ramblings, immutable forces, go and drop your kids blindfolded in the middle of a busy highway, you believe, you dance around, metaphysical psychobabble, brutal facts of reality, smash your body to pieces, you prove me wrong, you like to validate, without sounding like too much of an asshole, all I see here is some people who subscribe to LoA who don't have anything of note to show for it, amongst believers on this thread, I am covering all bases, your argument, you would have to assume… my reluctance, this thinking is absurd, cult like, if you could only open your eyes, how much time do you spend investigating, the Anunnaki, seances, sorcery, if you can’t show the effect, a real law requires, must have a mechanism, exerts force, this avoids, there would be no consequence, an illusion interacting with an individual, you do not believe them, what most people consider, a crowbar, pseudo philosophical bullshit, I use the language that I use to make the point I wish to make - your obtuse writing, the problem is, real world effect, lack of impact in reality, mollycoddle, I don’t belittle, conflict is a fact of life, I started making personal attacks is incorrect - it started with you, religious or cult like thinking, respect as some kind of token entitlement, it’s better that they understand and question, people like you & Phil are not brilliant loving people - I’m just being honest, you have no idea, that was certainly abstract, I hope you found something useful, you didn’t quite hit the target you were aiming for, you stated loa was true, if you can’t comprehend, you can’t understand, you guys dig so deep, your process of diving truth, nudge nudge... wink wink, that's not realistically how human beings work, you are straw manning, real love is not given as a default outside of the family, there is a clear gap between  the love I have for my fellow human beings, and the love I have for my, "do unto others" is not love in my book - they might be complete fucking arseholes, neither do you, it does not make your point any more coherent, you are getting at some notion, you claim to hold, that is just incorrect, cultish ghosts in the machine, I am surrounded by brilliant loving people, you keep straw manning farcical scenarios, you prove me wrong, should I put that on my dream board, glad you finally came around, we finally agree then that LoA is a load of shit…

 

Question if any of that is true. 

 

Then you might see past what you are saying is being said, and see what is being said, and experience a glimpse of loa. You might also see that you’re missing many people are being quite kind and patient with regard to these things you are saying. If you can extrapolate all of what you said to the world, it might be glimpsed that in the same manor none of these comments were here without you just as none of the war, violence, etc was here without us. There might be some things missed with respect to your life & relationships as well as the world at large that you might be missing with respect to loa. It’s similar to red / blue expecting turquoise to ‘prove’ turquoise to red / blue.  It doesn’t work that way, there has to be willingness to see. And then, you will. 

 

Maybe talk about what didn’t work when you made a dreamboard. Open up about your experience. Maybe insights are shared with you. Maybe you share some insights too. There are many people here ‘doing the work’. Maybe contribute, help out vs proving / expecting people to prove things to you, etc.