What's With this Law of Attraction stuff?

[Loop]

You are the Process, there isn’t a thing separate from Life, the Flow. 
 

Focus manifests what it is upon, this is something you can notice rather then believe. The faith becomes Knowing. 

A lot of the time ones focus is on the content of the one thought, believing in the separation which only appears within the content, rather then realizing the mechanism of what is thought, Nothing. 
 

When you realize that there truly is no thought, you can feel the force of life, Impermanence. One must become change, or more so accurately realize they are change already. No thought about it, Love attunes to Love.

 

 

It’s funny how it goes, usually the manifestation happens in a way that you didn’t expect it to, the image you had in mind was not at all like the manifestation. You might not even realize you actually did manifest something until years later because you believed it had to manifest in the way you pictured it. 

 

The more attuned one is with Impermanence, the more attuned one is with the Process of Creation. The more ones vibration can change to match the vibration of the thing being manifested. Don’t really need to have faith, notice Impermanence in everything.  

Edited May 25, 2022 by Loop

[Lotus]

14 hours ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

How would you guys reconcile LoA with situations like famine, disease, atrocity? Surely there is some pure true desire there for mothers not wanting to see their children die in front of them?

There's something to be said about developmental psychology here. Poor physical conditions lead to poor/terrorized/traumatized psychological conditions and vice versa.

 

Generally speaking, I don't think that most people who are in a situation like famine have the time and opportunity to learn about psychological wellbeing and spirituality - nor are they interested in it. Survival wise, it just makes sense to fill your stomach first. When 18h of your day are about filling your stomach, you don't have much time to contemplate the mind/LoA, no?

 

What'd be an interesting experiment would be to take a "westerner who understands LoA", get him/her to a crisis zone, leave him/her with basically nothing, and see what he/she can make out of his/her developed mind and the given situation. If you take someone "who's developed all the way through" a model like Maslows hierarchy or spiral dynamics, I think that person would have far better chances to apply LoA in a crisis zone - but that's because that person probably didn't have to live through the gnarliest of conditions and had the opportunities to learn about the mind first, before going into the crisis zone. Though that very same person might not have the necessary survival skills that, say, someone, who's lived in a crisis area for 15 years, has. Idk. Just some thoughts on this.

 

I think it's obvious that a (psychologically healthy) mother doesn't want to see their children die. 

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

31 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Rob believes he can make a youtube channel, Rob believes he has things worthwhile of sharing that will be appreciated by others, Rob has a youtube channel. Paul wants a youtube channel but thinks he can't speak good enough, is afraid people will think it's cringe. LOA teachings aren't for Rob, Rob "gets" LOA without needing to "get" it so he gets his youtube channel, Paul doesn't understand that Paul is creating against himself, against his desire. Instead of creating something fun and educational he is beating himself up, and this feels so bad he gives up on what he wants to create. LOA is for Paul. Everyone is a little bit Rob and little bit Paul on all subjects. 

 

Abdul wants to live his life and raise his family in his village - that's all he wants, its his only true heartfelt desire. Oh no, a local warlord has just murdered his kids, raped his wife, and conscripted him into his militia! Poor Abdul, if only someone had told him about LoA then he could have avoided all this by making a dreamboard, but I guess he probably didn't REALLY desire to spend his life in peace with his loved ones - oh well. 

 

Perhaps the LoA desire of the warlord to rape and murder overrides that of Abdul? Could it be there is actually a hierarchy of desire within the vast landscape of LoA... could Abdul counter the odds in his favour by making more dreamboards? How much desire must one have NOT to see their child hacked into burger meat? 

Seriously though - Real laws apply universally, gravity does not selectively apply to certain people. If your law only applies under specific fluffy new-age criteria, then that should give you some indication that it probably isn't a real law. How about we rename it from "Law of Attraction" to "That thing that sometimes happens when people get off their arse"? I appreciate the branding is not as catchy but I feel its more honest.

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

1 minute ago, Lotus said:

Generally speaking, I don't think that most people who are in a situation like famine have the time and opportunity to learn about psychological wellbeing and spirituality - nor are they interested in it. Survival wise, it just makes sense to fill your stomach first. When 18h of your day are about filling your stomach, you don't have much time to contemplate the mind/LoA, no?

 

You are bordering on caricature here, and I can only guess that you aren't particularly well travelled so let me give you a real life modern example which I have direct experience with..   

There are tribes in the Amazon DEEPLY entrenched in spirituality to the point it is almost the foundation of their entire culture. The jungle provides them with everything they need in abundance - fresh food, land, building materials, psychedelic drugs...etc. Not everyone who lives outside the western world is some kind of survivalist savage, and yes they have plenty of time for spiritual contemplation - more than anyone reading this could ever dream of.

Oh no - here comes the pandemic! We are all fucked, everyone is sick, there is no one to gather food or tend to the animals - did someone forget to make a dreamboard? Shit...now the river has just flooded to record levels and we are even more fucked, all the food we stored is wet and spoiling. If only some learned new-age folk could have shared their copy of "The Secret" then all this death and suffering could have been avoided! Why did no one teach us poor savages about LoA? Did we not have enough desire? Is it because we didn't open an etsy store to showcase our creativity?

This has been the reality in many places in Amazonian Peru, undoubtedly one of the spiritual Meccas of the planet, for the last couple of years. Feel free to point the the various caveats and subclauses within the LoA framework that are necessary to make it fit around this, and many equivalent situations happening all over the planet at any given moment. 

[Lotus]

@Adeptus Psychonautica

 

Good point. With "situations like famine, disease, atrocity", I didn't immediately think of Amazonian tribes who are suffering from unethical companies. I won't try to make the "LoA framework fit around this". Destruction is a form of creation. The globalized, tech-world is destroying the environment at the cost of a lot of suffering. And that's probably the next necessary step of evolution for this world. Just as it was necessary for empires to break down, in order to make something better and more peaceful out of it. I'm sure many innocent lives were lost in those processes, too. Whoever suffers is innocent. Life is bitter-sweet. Who am I to judge whether that's fair or not.

[Phil]

3 hours ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

 

You are bordering on caricature here, and I can only guess that you aren't particularly well travelled so let me give you a real life modern example which I have direct experience with..   

There are tribes in the Amazon DEEPLY entrenched in spirituality to the point it is almost the foundation of their entire culture. The jungle provides them with everything they need in abundance - fresh food, land, building materials, psychedelic drugs...etc. Not everyone who lives outside the western world is some kind of survivalist savage, and yes they have plenty of time for spiritual contemplation - more than anyone reading this could ever dream of.

Oh no - here comes the pandemic! We are all fucked, everyone is sick, there is no one to gather food or tend to the animals - did someone forget to make a dreamboard? Shit...now the river has just flooded to record levels and we are even more fucked, all the food we stored is wet and spoiling. If only some learned new-age folk could have shared their copy of "The Secret" then all this death and suffering could have been avoided! Why did no one teach us poor savages about LoA? Did we not have enough desire? Is it because we didn't open an etsy store to showcase our creativity?

This has been the reality in many places in Amazonian Peru, undoubtedly one of the spiritual Meccas of the planet, for the last couple of years. Feel free to point the the various caveats and subclauses within the LoA framework that are necessary to make it fit around this, and many equivalent situations happening all over the planet at any given moment. 

 

3 hours ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

 

You are bordering on caricature here, and I can only guess that you aren't particularly well travelled so let me give you a real life modern example which I have direct experience with..   

There are tribes in the Amazon DEEPLY entrenched in spirituality to the point it is almost the foundation of their entire culture. The jungle provides them with everything they need in abundance - fresh food, land, building materials, psychedelic drugs...etc. Not everyone who lives outside the western world is some kind of survivalist savage, and yes they have plenty of time for spiritual contemplation - more than anyone reading this could ever dream of.

Oh no - here comes the pandemic! We are all fucked, everyone is sick, there is no one to gather food or tend to the animals - did someone forget to make a dreamboard? Shit...now the river has just flooded to record levels and we are even more fucked, all the food we stored is wet and spoiling. If only some learned new-age folk could have shared their copy of "The Secret" then all this death and suffering could have been avoided! Why did no one teach us poor savages about LoA? Did we not have enough desire? Is it because we didn't open an etsy store to showcase our creativity?

This has been the reality in many places in Amazonian Peru, undoubtedly one of the spiritual Meccas of the planet, for the last couple of years. Feel free to point the the various caveats and subclauses within the LoA framework that are necessary to make it fit around this, and many equivalent situations happening all over the planet at any given moment. 

The dreamboard is not about avoidance. Focus upon unwanted fundamentally does not create. Loa can not conceptualized precisely because it is immutable. 

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

 

The dreamboard is not about avoidance. Focus upon unwanted fundamentally does not create. Loa can not conceptualized precisely because it is immutable. 

That is clear, the dreamboard is a tool through which we express desire, certainly not hedonistic desire like “I want a million bucks and a blow job” but that which is our true innermost desire “I want to give love” “i want to help others” etc - am I correct?

 

Assuming I am then in both the above examples then both the LoA and the tool used to guide us through that process would have been as useful as a chocolate teapot. What observation of reality tells us is that the LoA is not some immutable law (and I have some questions about your use of the word immutable, as the normal definition doesn’t seem to fit with what you are saying), its not a law at all, nor is it even anything beyond that SOMETIMES people want something and SOMETIMES they get it and SOMETIMES they don’t, and the variable in this is closer to chaos than LoA.

 

Its basically regressing back to praying to God before bedtime. Did you get what you wanted? Wow God is real and prayer really works! Oh you didn’t get what you wanted - tough titties for you matey! Enjoy your cancer!

[Mandy]

28 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

Enjoy your cancer!

 

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

@Mandy  My understanding is that for the majority of patients their life doesn’t actually begin with cancer, on the contrary it ends incredibly painfully. 
 

Im sure they were just the ones who didn’t desire to live though, or probably their parents neglected them, so lets not worry about them.

 

Go LoA!

[Aware Wolf]

7 hours ago, Orb said:

@Adeptus Psychonautica 

 

 

I find it all fascinating, if your views on things feels good and helps you, then good! 💗

 

There's something to this. If it works, it works. 

 

On the other hand, there's a long long list of cults and gurus not only in spiritual centers, but also businesses and other hierarchies. See documentaries about Uber, Theranos, and Bad Vegan among the recent documentaries I've seen where a business was run like a cult. 

 

One red flag is LoA, where Your Mind Determines Reality thinking. It's a delusion that could be useful. Sometimes confidence can be useful as in selling professions and in meeting people and pickup. Visualization can help in performance of a task. 

 

See AA for example as a cult, that helps a lot of people. Sometimes things go well, or well enough despite delusions. Or it takes time before cracks start appearing. 

 

You can ignore reality sometimes without any cost. I think the creationists who reject evolution are in this camp. There's literally no cost to them or any inconvenience. In fact, it may be that it places in the in-group in their religious group. On the other hand, there are anti-vaxxers who've literally died for their beliefs. 

 

Sometimes bumping into reality can be really hard. 

 

 

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

That is clear, the dreamboard is a tool through which we express desire, certainly not hedonistic desire like “I want a million bucks and a blow job” but that which is our true innermost desire “I want to give love” “i want to help others” etc - am I correct?

There’s no we between you and your dreamboard, and it is not for you or I to say what someone else should or shouldn’t desire or write. Someone might write the former, someone else might write the latter, and someone else might write all of the above. Taking the we factor out might initially seem insignificant. Another way to look at it, what would you say to someone who wrote and received all of that? 

1 hour ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

 

Assuming I am then in both the above examples then both the LoA and the tool used to guide us through that process would have been as useful as a chocolate teapot. What observation of reality tells us is that the LoA is not some immutable law (and I have some questions about your use of the word immutable, as the normal definition doesn’t seem to fit with what you are saying), its not a law at all, nor is it even anything beyond that SOMETIMES people want something and SOMETIMES they get it and SOMETIMES they don’t, and the variable in this is closer to chaos than LoA.

 

Its basically regressing back to praying to God before bedtime. Did you get what you wanted? Wow God is real and prayer really works! Oh you didn’t get what you wanted - tough titties for you matey! Enjoy your cancer!

Similar to taking the ‘we’ out, it can be earnestly said ‘what observation of reality tells me’, but not us.

I’m not trying to be critical of you and I hope it’s not taken that way, but replacing conceptualization with assumption is really still conceptualizing. Chaos is a conceptualization of reality, and this is evident in attempting to point to chaos.

What you’re saying is that there is not law of attraction, what you are and will therefore continue to experience is that there is no law of attraction. That is the law of attraction being immutable, and not being a belief or concept. 

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

6 minutes ago, Phil said:

it is not for you or I to say what someone else should write. Someone might write the former, someone else might write the latter, and someone else might write all of the above

 

Try and keep your own words in mind. To write this immediately followed by nitpicking the use of "we" or "us" is both pedantic and hypocritical. The communication that was intended is perfectly clear, so I don't require you to correct my English thank you very much. Further to that the words used are absolutely correct within the context I used them - trust me, I'm English 🙂 

 

13 minutes ago, Phil said:

what would you say to someone who wrote and received all of that?

 

I would say "good for you!". What you would you say to those who wrote and received none of it?

 

15 minutes ago, Phil said:

What you’re saying is that there is not law of attraction, what you are and will therefore continue to experience is that there is no law of attraction. 

 

That is correct, and yes I will continue to not experience things they have no basis in reality, as will you. Notice how this differs from actual immutable laws, nobody suddenly floats off the ground due to their lack of belief in gravity - the law works equally in every occurrence regardless of belief or knowledge of the system.

 

23 minutes ago, Phil said:

That is the law of attraction being immutable

 

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

Can you explain what you mean here by "immutable" and in what context it applies to LoA? I've read your page on it BTW so please don't just link that, and it still make no sense in this context. I suspect you are using it in the way some new-age chaps use "quantum", in that its substitution used because you think it sounds good or meaningful, but is in no way related to the actual definition of the word. 

[Aware Wolf]

I hate to almost do this, sometimes I'm tempted to offer to test people who make claims that crystals have power and that discerning people can feel a crystal's power. But it probably wouldn't go over well. They're most likely not at all interested in being tested. Huh.

 

So, if Law of Attraction really is a law and works and has an effect in the real world, then it can be measured and tested. How would one do this? Suggest a legit test that can be done here. Let's put LoA to the test! 

 

If I might suggest, if I win a huge lottery prize, without buying a ticket -- I'll be a LoA fanboy. The Universe would have to vortex a lottery ticket on the ground that I pickup. Or how about a soulmate another common LoA wish. I meet my soulmate this next week. 

 

Phil writes:

Another way to look at it, what would you say to someone who wrote and received all of that? 

 

Sometimes people pray and get what they want, Sometimes people pray and are healed. There's fanboys and fangirls of every religion who contend that prayer works. However a NIH study showed no effect of prayer on healing (except people that were prayed for, did slightly worse). God doesn't seem to have any interest though in healing amputees! See the interesting website: https://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

 

As @Mandypoints out, Jesus was very LoA. 

 

Mark 11:24

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

 

Damien Echols was a magick practitioner and visualized himself walking out of death row jail cell. Interestingly, he did. No retrial which I thought was the best that might be hoped for. The State just let him go. I've never heard of this happening before. Interesting. I don't know how it worked, but good for him. I don't know, but there's probably a lot of other prisoners now visualizing frantically and with dream boards that are not walking out. Also, I don't know if this is even relevant, but Damien Echols had some really top-notch lawyers. 

 

I know a LoA fan and she told me she tested LoA by asking that lunch be provided for her for the next week at no cost to her. And for different reasons, at work, she received free lunches. Cool. I have friends too that have haunted house stories. I enjoy hearing them. 

 

She asked about LoA to the nun Tenzin Palmo, and Tenzin Palmo's answer was even IF LoA worked-- and you attract what you want, you're still stuck in the world of samsara. By the way, I tried her lunch test and didn't receive any free lunches. 

 

My view is that the Universe doesn't give a G--Damn what you want or desire. There's opposite views to LoA, such as Alan Watts Backwards Law that work just as well, maybe better. There's the Stockdale Paradox which was field tested in harsh POW jail cells of Vietnam which contends one must take into account all the harsh factors of reality. I'd like one instance where something desired was achieved without the causes and conditions for it -- and it's reproducible. Someone may desire financial stability and receive a random check from an unpaid loan from ten years ago, now forgotten. Cool especially if it happens for you, but if I try to duplicate it -- there's very very likely to be no check in the mail. I suppose one could put the blame on me for lack of checks, and getting no free lunches -....

 

In a sutta, the Buddha said:

 

Householder, these five things that are likable, desirable, and agreeable 

are hard to get in the world. 

What five? 

Long life, beauty, happiness, fame, and heaven. 

These are the five things that are likable, desirable, and agreeable, 

but hard to get in the world.

And I say that these five things are not got by praying or wishing for them. 

If they were, who would lack them

-- The Buddha 

 

AN 5.43: Iṭṭhasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato

 

[Orb]

10 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

Can you explain what you mean here by "immutable" and in what context it applies to LoA? I've read your page on it BTW so please don't just link that, and it still make no sense in this context. I suspect you are using it in the way some new-age chaps use "quantum", in that its substitution used because you think it sounds good or meaningful, but is in no way related to the actual definition of the word. 

@Adeptus Psychonautica just googled it, it means, unchanging over time or unable to be changed. Pretty much the same on the site.

 

Makes sense to me, LoA is something that is unchanging.

 

16 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

 nobody suddenly floats off the ground due to their lack of belief in gravity 

Exactly, which makes it immutable. Whether you believe in LoA or not doesnt matter, it is always operating, such that when you want evidence that it isnt true you will be proved right and vice versa.

[Aware Wolf]

@Orb "Whether you believe in LoA or not doesnt matter, it is always operating, such that when you want evidence that it isnt true you will be proved right and vice versa."

 

This is convenient. Even when it's pointed out LoA doesn't work -- it's evidence of it working. Nice! There's a popular saying: Not Even Wrong -- and this now could be applied to LoA. As it is impossible to disprove it. It can't be wrong. Not Even. 

[Orb]

@Aware Wolf

1 hour ago, Aware Wolf said:

One red flag is LoA, where Your Mind Determines Reality thinking. It's a delusion that could be useful.

 

In LoA, the mind doesnt determine reality, rather the mind surrenders its resistance and merges back with You (Love). 

 

Out of this merging, we can say that thoughts arise out of this force and reflect your true nature (Love), and then (Conscious) attraction begins. 

 

It isnt just thinking about something that attracts, not at all, but the alignment/merging between thought and feeling.

 

Feeling = the living body, the fan, the walls, basically pure sensation. 

 

These things sound crazy or ridiculous but I assure you its completely normal and while it can be said its miraculous, it really isnt special at all. 

 

I know its hard to trust this stuff with all the people in the market place, but when it works it works, and you will know for sure. I myself have questioned the "market place" so I totally get the skepticism, you may have seen my skepticism on some forum posts here actually. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Orb

[Orb]

@Aware Wolf

 

15 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

@Orb "Whether you believe in LoA or not doesnt matter, it is always operating, such that when you want evidence that it isnt true you will be proved right and vice versa."

 

This is convenient. Even when it's pointed out LoA doesn't work -- it's evidence of it working. Nice! There's a popular saying: Not Even Wrong -- and this now could be applied to LoA. As it is impossible to disprove it. It can't be wrong. Not Even. 

 

I got nothing left honestly.

 

I just wanted to be happy/feel good/peaceful, and i stopped listening to words and listened to feeling instead!

 

I hate speaking of LoA to people because language turns "me" into a salesman lol. And through language these words imply that im trying to bring you to my point of view or "convert" you, I mean after all we are having a conversation 🙂. (Im actually becoming a salesman, so fuck it...good practice)

 

So taking this thing I feel in direct experience and trying to translate it to you will inevitably seem like I have this nice philosophy and I want you to believe in it. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Orb

[Aware Wolf]

@Orb I'm happy you found something that made you feel better.

 

I just hear from every faith and creed, from Mormons to Satanists to the latest Guru -- that they know it's true because of how they feel and they just know it is the Truth. So did Heaven's Gaters. They were absolutely convinced of the truth of what they were following that they mass suicided. 

 

The Truth of the Heaven's Gaters was that there was a next level and by suiciding they would hitch a ride on a spaceship that was in the tail end of the comet Hale-Bopp. 

 

But is this True? Is there any evidence? If you asked these Heaven's Gaters, hours before their tragic departure these questions, one might receive similar answers one receives from LoA advocates. Detractors don't understand it, they're at a lower level, they look for proof but what proof did Jesus give when asked? 

 

One of the key insights is that thoughts can just be thoughts. Feelings can just be feelings. They can delude us, just as they did for the Manson Girls and the Heaven's Gaters. 

[Adeptus Psychonautica]

33 minutes ago, Orb said:

just googled it, it means, unchanging over time or unable to be changed. Pretty much the same on the site.

 

Makes sense to me, LoA is something that is unchanging.

 

That is indeed the definition, and that absolutely makes zero sense in the context used here. It has already been demonstrated that LoA is not some unchanging thing, its actually an incredibly flakey, arbitrary,and unverifiable thing - if we can even call it a thing (Again Phil, the use of "We" in this context is entirely correct).

 

The only unchanging factor we can seriously apply to LoA is that it is unchanging in its capability to show itself to be an actual law - because it isn't one by any yardstick.

 

  

[Orb]

12 minutes ago, Adeptus Psychonautica said:

 

That is indeed the definition, and that absolutely makes zero sense in the context used here. It has already been demonstrated that LoA is not some unchanging thing, its actually an incredibly flakey, arbitrary,and unverifiable thing - if we can even call it a thing (Again Phil, the use of "We" in this context is entirely correct).

@Adeptus Psychonautica Your desire to be absolutely sure of something will never be satisfied because its born out of doubt, and LoA will continue to prove your doubt right. Youll see all the lies, suffering, and "realities" of the world, I have too and im finished with that.

 

I must admit I dont like the Law of Attraction name either as it has a very imposing sound to it. 

 

Nevermind...its kinda...growing on me.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Orb