crisis

[judy]

@Phil

i feel a desire/urge to explain to him how he hurt me.

we've tried that a few times, but he never really understood and only said things that were even more hurtful.

he thinks it's all fine and doesn't even get all the details and the depth of how he hurt me, all the things that went wrong.

i, on the other hand, keep thinking about it and keep discovering more and more things that went wrong, and i'd need to explain those to him.

because he meant something to me and it's not right that all of this has been such a disaster. he doesn't even see it.

it's weird because he still pretends he likes me or cares about me, but he just won't take seriously or believe me how hurt i feel.

 

now i can't talk to him anymore, so what do i do about this urge?

 

[Phil]

@judy

How do you want to feel? 

[ThePoint]

Gaslight yourself into feeling better and continue the abusive relationship obviously. What better possible solution could there be?

[judy]

31 minutes ago, Phil said:

@judy

How do you want to feel? 

 

i want to feel like i am beautiful and worthy and whole.

i want to feel like i deserve to be loved

i want to feel like someone truly wants and admires me

i want to feel loved and wanted and like someone cares about and protects me

i want to feel safe

i want to feel pure and whole and innocent

 

i want to feel like my desires are valid, rather than stupid and delusional

i want to feel like i'm good enough

 

 

... he was there for me for a while and it was so surreal, and now it's over and i learn that it was in fact not real at all, cause he never truly wanted me, i was never enough for him.

i want to fix that.

i don't want this to feel like such a gigantic disaster, like everything that happened between us was just a lie.

but i don't think i can feel good about the past anymore, knowing that all this time he never actually appreciated me and this was all for nothing.

 

i guess i want to feel validated and valued

 

and i don't want to feel like such an easy slut.

i want to feel like an angel or something. like i'm divine. but maybe that's a bit over the top and crossing over into egotistical territory.

[judy]

24 minutes ago, ThePoint said:

Gaslight yourself into feeling better and continue the abusive relationship obviously. What better possible solution could there be?

🙂

i keep thinking that this would be so much easier if he'd hit me or something.

i'd be a victim, 100%, and i'd be innocent, and i'd have a reasonable explanation as to why this should be over for good now.

it probably wouldn't feel that way if this was actually the case, but i keep thinking it nonetheless.

 

this right now seems worse, in a way.

because i temporarily had someone really good enter into my life. but after he's seen too much of me now, he found out that i am not worthy of someone like him.

and i never meant anything to him though he meant so much to me.

 

the whole struggle right now is that he was so sweet to me for the most part, practically perfect.

except for that one thing and he does not realise this, refuses to apologise or take responsibility now.

he pretends he still respects me, when really he doesn't realise how hurtful all of this has been for me, and he doesn't want to hear me complain about it anymore.

Edited April 21 by judy

[Phil]

@judy

What is the difference(s) between someone who feels exactly the way you want to feel, and does not feel the way you do not want to feel … and you?

[judy]

@Phil

circumstances.

i feel like i could only feel those things if circumstances were right.

and circumstances have somehow deemed me unworthy and impure by now.

Edited April 21 by judy

[judy]

57 minutes ago, Phil said:

@judy

What is the difference(s) between someone who feels exactly the way you want to feel, and does not feel the way you do not want to feel … and you?

feeling beautiful isn't enough

i want to be beautiful, sort of in an "objective" sense, so that others consider me to be beautiful as well (and treat me accordingly?).

Edited April 21 by judy

[Phil]

56 minutes ago, judy said:

@Phil

circumstances.

i feel like i could only feel those things if circumstances were right.

and circumstances have somehow deemed me unworthy and impure by now.

Is there any example of anyone who had far worse circumstances and yet feels as you want to and does not feel as you do not want to?

 

How do circumstances deem, such that circumstances are an entity?

 

Referring back to your answer of how you want to feel, which words represent things as in objects which you could experience?

 

What is the second I of “I feel like I…” ?

 

Presuming you are actually you, and there are not two of you, do you know what you feel like?

 

53 minutes ago, judy said:

feeling beautiful isn't enough

i want to be beautiful, sort of in an "objective" sense, so that others consider me to be beautiful as well (and treat me accordingly?).

Are you ok with others and controlling your opinions, interpretations & preferences too?

 

What is your evidence that what you are wanting is not already the case?

 

If everyone you encountered said you are beautiful, or if everyone you encountered said you are not beautiful… How would you know what is the truth?

[judy]

23 minutes ago, Phil said:

Is there any example of anyone who had far worse circumstances and yet feels as you want to and does not feel as you do not want to?

probably, yes. but i assume i'd judge them for it.

 

it's like feeling guilty is the only thing that prevents me from being a bad person.

if i stop feeling guilty about and scared of that which is wrong, nothing will stop me from turning into a bad person.

 

31 minutes ago, Phil said:

How do circumstances deem, such that circumstances are an entity?

i don't know.

functionally, they do.

i guess circumstances aren't entities, but they create people who are either noble and virtuous, or the opposite.

 

36 minutes ago, Phil said:

Referring back to your answer of how you want to feel, which words represent things as in objects which you could experience?

 

 

none, i think?

but they would manifest clearly in ways that i would recognise, situationally.

 

38 minutes ago, Phil said:

What is the second I of “I feel like I…” ?

 

Presuming you are actually you, and there are not two of you, do you know what you feel like?

 

i feel bad

 

39 minutes ago, Phil said:

Are you ok with others and controlling your opinions, interpretations & preferences too?

 

What is your evidence that what you are wanting is not already the case?

 

If everyone you encountered said you are beautiful, or if everyone you encountered said you are not beautiful… How would you know what is the truth?

 

fair enough.

i mean there's no complete and total way of controlling people's minds and that's not the goal.

but on average, i know how i'd have to be, both to like myself/be who i want to be and to leave the impression i want to leave. 

 

[Phil]

1 minute ago, judy said:

probably, yes. but i assume i'd judge them for it.

For what?

 

1 minute ago, judy said:

 

it's like feeling guilty is the only thing that prevents me from being a bad person.

if i stop feeling guilty about and scared of that which is wrong, nothing will stop me from turning into a bad person.

How do you know there are good & bad people?

 

4 minutes ago, judy said:

i don't know.

functionally, they do.

i guess circumstances aren't entities, but they create people who are either noble and virtuous, or the opposite.

Could you describe this function?

 

5 minutes ago, judy said:

none, i think?

but they would manifest clearly in ways that i would recognise, situationally.

Maybe there is confusion around manifestation and what’s manifesting…?
 

7 minutes ago, judy said:

i feel bad

You are a not you which knows how you feel or what you feel like?

 

10 minutes ago, judy said:

fair enough.

i mean there's no complete and total way of controlling people's minds and that's not the goal.

but on average, i know how i'd have to be, both to like myself/be who i want to be and to leave the impression i want to leave. 

Ok, so, others aside, how would you have to be?

 

[judy]

29 minutes ago, Phil said:

For what?

for being oblivious to how wrong they are. not wrong as in, intellectually, but as in, how they are.

i could, for example, be ugly and still tell everybody how beautiful i think i am. that would come across as arrogant and egocentric.

but if i am beautiful and don't tell anybody and think i am ugly, that means i am humble and virtuous.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Phil said:

How do you know there are good & bad people?

 

 

philosophically and spiritually, i do not believe in good and bad people.

practically speaking, however, i do. because i know most people believe in good and bad people and will judge me for acting or being a certain way, so i also need to judge myself.

 

43 minutes ago, Phil said:

Could you describe this function?

 

i could be treated with love and respect and that would make me feel like i am worthy of love and respect?

...i don't know how to describe this. i'm confused now.

 

43 minutes ago, Phil said:

Maybe there is confusion around manifestation and what’s manifesting…?

 

yes, there is.

so i know that what i believe is reflected back at me externally.

i know that i believe i am not good enough.

it would have made sense for the Universe to send a rapist my way.

instead, it sent a really sweet person who was really good to me, but then he couldn't stay. also because i'm not good enough.

but it's really weird to me then how someone can "love" me and hurt me at the same time.

that makes it hard for me, too, because i feel love for him and i also feel that he really hurt me.

 

is that what you were asking about?

 

53 minutes ago, Phil said:

You are a not you which knows how you feel or what you feel like?

 

i'm not sure if you mean this rhetorically or not.

i feel like i am me and i have emotions and thoughts, which tend to make me suffer but i need them to.

 

55 minutes ago, Phil said:

Ok, so, others aside, how would you have to be?

 

i feel weird making another list for you.

like good and pretty and sweet?

and nice and loving and gifted

[Phil]

4 hours ago, judy said:

for being oblivious to how wrong they are. not wrong as in, intellectually, but as in, how they are.

Someone who had or has worse circumstances yet feels how you want to feel… would be oblivious to how wrong they are… about what?

What exactly would you be judging them for ?

 

4 hours ago, judy said:

i could, for example, be ugly and still tell everybody how beautiful i think i am. that would come across as arrogant and egocentric.

Or ignorance / innocence. 

 

4 hours ago, judy said:

but if i am beautiful and don't tell anybody and think i am ugly, that means i am humble and virtuous.

Or that’s emotional suppression. 

 

4 hours ago, judy said:

philosophically and spiritually, i do not believe in good and bad people.

Spirituality isn’t conceptual, it’s de-conceptual. It’s not about philosophy, beliefs & concepts, it’s about what’s actually absolutely true. 

 

4 hours ago, judy said:

practically speaking, however, i do. because i know most people believe in good and bad people and will judge me for acting or being a certain way, so i also need to judge myself.

Philosophy & spirituality seem to carve out a special “practical” conceptual place separate of one’s actual experience. Seems to involve a presumption of a thinker / judge which minds reads. That might be the separate self (of thoughts) which “needs to judge itself”. That would be two selves. Three selves if the awareness of these thoughts, concepts & philosophies is counted as a self. Spirituality so far might be spiritual bypassing and that may be a fundamental misunderstanding which skews everything else, as in all interpretations. 

 

4 hours ago, judy said:

i could be treated with love and respect and that would make me feel like i am worthy of love and respect?

...i don't know how to describe this. i'm confused now

You’re making your ex out to be authentic & at the same time unloving & disrespectful. Or maybe this is just the mental gymnastic that comes with conceptual spirituality / emotional suppression. 

 

Why would how you’re treated equate to “being worthy of love and respect”? 

 

What experience led to that interpretation?

 

4 hours ago, judy said:

yes, there is.

so i know that what i believe is reflected back at me externally.

i know that i believe i am not good enough.

Without “the knower” and “the believer”, there’s just - a belief, yes?

 

4 hours ago, judy said:

it would have made sense for the Universe to send a rapist my way.

In accordance with the mirror concept, you’re saying you’re a rapist…?

 

4 hours ago, judy said:

instead, it sent a really sweet person who was really good to me, but then he couldn't stay. also because i'm not good enough.

Maybe you couldn’t fulfill him, just like he can’t fulfill you… ? That he’s going from oblivious to how wrong he is to really sweet and good to you are major clues that circumstances aren’t so objective, and interpretation is entirely subjective. It might very well be that you don’t like how your interpretations feel. 

 

4 hours ago, judy said:

but it's really weird to me then how someone can "love" me and hurt me at the same time.

The belief that there is someone else who could love you obscures the reality of love, via the underlying belief you’re separate. 

 

4 hours ago, judy said:

that makes it hard for me, too, because i feel love for him and i also feel that he really hurt me.

 

is that what you were asking about?

 

You’re manifesting, and by every possible measure, he’s manifestation. It’s the same as being all jumbled up, confused & worried over a movie. The difference is whether you’re expecting love or allowing love as the screen. 

 

4 hours ago, judy said:

i'm not sure if you mean this rhetorically or not.

i feel like i am me and i have emotions and thoughts, which tend to make me suffer but i need them to.

Oh boy, more philosophy & concepts 🫤… why do you need emotions & thoughts to “make you suffer”?

What possible justifications & rationalizations (thoughts) for suffering come to mind, in relation to a nonexistent self (suffering)?

 

4 hours ago, judy said:

i feel weird making another list for you.

like good and pretty and sweet?

and nice and loving and gifted

If only weird were guidance. 

 

What does the discord (suffering) of thoughts to the contrary of you being good, pretty, sweet, nice & loving convey about the truth, about your true nature, that which is aware of / feeling thoughts?

[judy]

8 hours ago, Phil said:

Someone who had or has worse circumstances yet feels how you want to feel… would be oblivious to how wrong they are… about what?

What exactly would you be judging them for ?

a number of things.

looks, character, ...

 

8 hours ago, Phil said:

Spirituality isn’t conceptual, it’s de-conceptual. It’s not about philosophy, beliefs & concepts, it’s about what’s actually absolutely true. 

 

Philosophy & spirituality seem to carve out a special “practical” conceptual place separate of one’s actual experience. Seems to involve a presumption of a thinker / judge which minds reads. That might be the separate self (of thoughts) which “needs to judge itself”. That would be two selves. Three selves if the awareness of these thoughts, concepts & philosophies is counted as a self. Spirituality so far might be spiritual bypassing and that may be a fundamental misunderstanding which skews everything else, as in all interpretations.

okay.

what i meant, i think, is that it is also actual experience that made me encounter a lot of people who think just like me, or i guess i think just like them by now.

and i have learned through experience that certain things are acceptable and others are not.

 

for example, most people would naturally want to be friends with someone who is physically attractive and kind.

now i can be all spiritual and try to forget all about that and try to throw all those beliefs out the window,

or i can recognise that there is some practical truth to this and being kind and "objectively" attractive does come with its perks.

 

8 hours ago, Phil said:

Why would how you’re treated equate to “being worthy of love and respect”? 

 

What experience led to that interpretation?

i suppose when i was younger, i was more authentic and confident than i am now.

but somehow people disliked me for it and so i learned that i'd better be shy and i should take up as little space as possible.

i don't even know what made them dislike me in the first place, but eventually i figured there had to be something inherently wrong with my character or persona.

 

8 hours ago, Phil said:

Without “the knower” and “the believer”, there’s just - a belief, yes?

okay

 

8 hours ago, Phil said:

In accordance with the mirror concept, you’re saying you’re a rapist…?

yeah i really don't want to be that.

i understand that it's "bad" of me to need someone else to be "bad" to me, for me to be able to think i'm "good".

 

8 hours ago, Phil said:

Maybe you couldn’t fulfill him, just like he can’t fulfill you… ? That he’s going from oblivious to how wrong he is to really sweet and good to you are major clues that circumstances aren’t so objective, and interpretation is entirely subjective. It might very well be that you don’t like how your interpretations feel.

my interpretation of the situation feels solid, inevitable and truthful. even though it makes me suffer.

 

8 hours ago, Phil said:

The belief that there is someone else who could love you obscures the reality of love, via the underlying belief you’re separate.

 

but isn't that what most people do believe?

it thus seems more solid and true to me.

i don't know if i can give up on that hope/desire. even if i genuinely tried.

 

8 hours ago, Phil said:

The belief that there is someone else who could love you obscures the reality of love, via the underlying belief you’re separate.

so what you're suggesting is it would be me loving me through "someone else" externally?

 

8 hours ago, Phil said:

Oh boy, more philosophy & concepts 🫤… why do you need emotions & thoughts to “make you suffer”?

What possible justifications & rationalizations (thoughts) for suffering come to mind, in relation to a nonexistent self (suffering)?

 

sorry😶‍🌫️

if something is wrong i need to be aware of it and suffer for it.

 

8 hours ago, Phil said:

What does the discord (suffering) of thoughts to the contrary of you being good, pretty, sweet, nice & loving convey about the truth, about your true nature, that which is aware of / feeling thoughts?

i mean it would be too easy if my nature was that i am good and pretty and sweet and nice and loving after all, simply because i want to be that. 

so i'll go with my nature is wanting to be those things (and failing)?

[Phil]

5 hours ago, judy said:

i mean it would be too easy if my nature was that i am good and pretty and sweet and nice and loving after all, simply because i want to be that. 

It is that easy. Goodness, Beauty, Sweetness, Kindness and Loving are already your nature. 

[judy]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

It is that easy. Goodness, Beauty, Sweetness, Kindness and Loving are already your nature. 

i don't believe that.

 

what constitutes the critical point where a belief can be let go of? i've always wondered.

[Phil]

Just now, judy said:

i don't believe that.

There’s no suggestion here of believing anything. 

 

Just now, judy said:

 

what constitutes the critical point where a belief can be let go of? i've always wondered.

That time is passing is a belief. 

[judy]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

That time is passing is a belief. 

yes.

 

5 minutes ago, Phil said:

There’s no suggestion here of believing anything.

knowing, then?

 

how do i know and see that those things are true? simply by feeling?

[Phil]

8 minutes ago, judy said:

knowing, then?

No.

 

8 minutes ago, judy said:

how do i know and see that those things are true? simply by feeling?

 A knower (subject) and things (objects) is an experience of thoughts, about there being a knower & things. This is a concept also referred to as materialism or the materialist’s paradigm. 

 

What’s ’suggested here’ is actual (non-conceptual) awakening. 

(See’ Suggested Methods’). 

[judy]

@Phil

okay.

thank you so much for everything🙏