Deceit, Relationships and Customer Service

[Mandy]

If you are 95-99.9% sure you are being deceived by someone, do you still give them the benefit of the doubt? How can you ever be SURE you're being tricked or fooled? 

 

In my business, I currently have a couple customers that are lying and deceiving me in mostly harmless ways that aren't enough for me to stop doing business with them. It seems that the smart thing and only thing I can do is go by the creed "the customer is always right" and be patient, act stupid and reserve the drawing a line when necessary. But I never know when to draw the line. 

 

This happened recently in another way when I was quite sure there was a high possibility I was being deceived and went through with it anyway, delivered on my word, put myself out on a limb, took time away from other things for someone because I didn't want to burn any potential bridges. I thought that I was fine with it, I thought that I knew ahead of time and was aligned with my choice to take a hit for the slim chance that I wasn't being deceived, but after the fact it was clear that I wasn't ok with it at all. Perhaps I really weigh that small percentage that someone is going to do the right thing way too high. 

 

There was a blog post written once by someone who figured out mathematically that locking his bike was a waste of time because his time locking and unlocking it over the years was worth more than the bike getting stolen at the frequency it was likely to happen. That resonates a lot and I want to align with not locking the bike up metaphorically, but it's still a hit when it's stolen. Must be asserting a self into the equation and can't rely on the math to remove it either. 🤷‍♀️

 

I would LIKE so much to take people at face value. 

 

 

 

I guess that one is never inside the snow globe or storyline and Will Ferrell is the only reality of Buddy. But the emotion isn't there because the emotion is imagining taking the snowglobe and chucking it at someone's head, and that's not quite being out of the snowglobe. 😂

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WhiteOwl]

52 minutes ago, Mandy said:

If you are 95-99.9% sure you are being deceived by someone, do you still give them the benefit of the doubt? How can you ever be SURE you're being tricked or fooled? 

 

What came to mind was not so much in terms of being tricked or fooled, but just anything with "someone". Judging them or believing anything about them. How often are we really 95-99.9% sure its true.

 

1 hour ago, Mandy said:

That resonates a lot and I want to align with not locking the bike up metaphorically, but it's still a hit when it's stolen. Must be asserting a self into the equation and can't rely on the math to remove it either. 🤷‍♀️

If it happens that rarely, it seems like you prefer trusting in "people". If someone fucked you over, at least you gave them the chance to prove you wrong. And you learned not to deal with that someone again. 

 

 

[Rose]

I think a lot of Americans and people who grew up in first world countries are a bit too naive and trusting. I mean.. some people don’t even lock their doors here.. growing up in Ukraine in the harsh 90s we would not only lock the door with multiple locks, but also turn the light on in our apartment everytime we leave so that the burglars think there is someone home 😅 - basically the mentality there is if you don’t take measures to protect yourself, you will get deceived; or don’t make it so easy for the deceiver to deceive you, otherwise you’re just asking for it 😅

 

 

Another awakening for me was of course the war in Ukraine and seeing how animal many people looking species really are. I am sure there is good in them somewhere, but I have better things to do than to search for it. The main person I have to take care of and protect is me.
 

Perhaps this is not very traditional - but I would try to deceive them in return. This way I wouldn’t feel used and will learn that deceipt is another highly efficient survival strategy.

 

I used to really hate people that lie, then my therapist told me to lie randomly for a week.. it made me really let go of my “hate” towards the liars. 

Edited April 5 by Rose

[Phil]

The synchronicity with this week and this thread is off the charts.
 

I ordered an eight person 850 pound Hot Tub from Amazon for my Airbnb cabin, about two months ago. The delivery was scheduled for six days ago, I called two weeks before, the day before, and the day of the delivery and the local delivery company confirmed, it was coming between 1 and 5 PM. 

I was there, eight hours round-trip drive, but always happy to go, and nobody showed up to deliver it or called. So I called the delivery company and they just said we’re not able to deliver it. Of course I was like, what do you mean you’re not able to deliver it? I confirmed this morning. He just said again we’re not able to deliver it, and it was very literally all he would say other than that they were sending it back to Amazon and I would have to re-order it. Ok. 
 

I talked to Amazon and they said they would send it out again in about four weeks, and that I would have to do the legwork to make sure a different company would receive and deliver it, and that they were able to. Weird but whatever.

 

The next day, a different delivery company calls saying they’re calling to schedule the delivery of the hot tub. I’m like what? And they knew nothing about what happened with the previous company. So I said great and scheduled the delivery for the next day. I called the next morning and confirmed, and believe it or not they did the same exact thing. Never showed up with the hot tub and never called. I called them, and they said the same thing, that they just can’t deliver it, they don’t have the equipment or the manpower. Again, I was like OK. Talked to Amazon again, they said the same thing again. I was mindful about the whole thing. Focusing on how nice it’ll be when the hot tubs finally delivered. It’ll increase bookings. And it’ll be nice to just sit in the backyard in a hot tub.  
 

When I talked with Amazon the second time, they explained to me that this happens a lot with Hot Tubs. The local delivery companies put high weight parameters so they receive as much business as possible even though they can’t deliver hot tubs. All of the people at the two companies that I talked to knew this full and well and were literally just lying when they were scheduling the deliveries. 

then, the next day, FedEx calls. One of the nicest women I ever talked to. She says the same thing. That my Hot Tub is at the FedEx warehouse and she’s calling to schedule the delivery. I was cracking up. I said are you 100% sure because I’m supposed to leave tomorrow to head back home. She was laughing and said yes I’m 100% sure. I asked her questions about the manpower and equipment, and her answers were perfect. I had to rent a forklift by the way, and she also mentioned that the delivery driver happens to be a licensed forklift operator to. So I was like all right, scheduled delivery, figured I would stay one more day and see what happens.

 

The next day, FedEx shows up, dude operates the forklift like a pro, hot tub is delivered.  

 

🤷 

 

 

[Jonas Long]

Why does the saying "its not personal, its just business" exist in a way that we all recognize it?  As if any and all deception doesn't apply or shouldn't "hurt" when its done in the name of business, but as soon as it isn't, a line is crossed.  As if business dealings weren't between "people" ultimately.  Like "business" is some invulnerable entity to itself which doesn't touch the lives of the people whom the business consists of.  It's very weird to me, but seems like it's a given among people.  Like the boss of my last job took me aside on my 35th birthday to teach me how to do online investing (as if he paid me sufficiently to have anything left over to invest) and explain explained how you could choose "ethical" investments only, ie not investing in things like tobacco, or anything that goes against your personal values.  He told me he completely ignored that part though lol, but still considered himself a liberal and a "good person".  Idk.  I don't lock shit personally, not my house or my car, and I've never had anything stolen.  I'm not sure if what I said adds up or is coherent, I'm pretty tired rn.

[Mandy]

6 hours ago, WhiteOwl said:

If it happens that rarely, it seems like you prefer trusting in "people". If someone fucked you over, at least you gave them the chance to prove you wrong. And you learned not to deal with that someone again.

Did I though? Like with Phil's hot tub, of the boy who cried wolf, what if it actually is a wolf, hot tub, and I've deemed it boy who cries wolf, or undeliverable hot tub? 

I guess it's doubt, and being willing to feel disappointment. 

 

5 hours ago, Rose said:

Perhaps this is not very traditional - but I would try to deceive them in return. This way I wouldn’t feel used and will learn that deceipt is another highly efficient survival strategy.

The eye for an eye approach is what creates communities where you absolutely must lock your doors though. 

 

@Phil Seems the theme is patience here. 😂 Or Journey's  Don't Stop Believin', I dunno.

 

3 hours ago, Jonas Long said:

Why does the saying "its not personal, its just business" exist in a way that we all recognize it?  As if any and all deception doesn't apply or shouldn't "hurt" when its done in the name of business, but as soon as it isn't, a line is crossed.  As if business dealings weren't between "people" ultimately.  Like "business" is some invulnerable entity to itself which doesn't touch the lives of the people whom the business consists of.  It's very weird to me, but seems like it's a given among people.  Like the boss of my last job took me aside on my 35th birthday to teach me how to do online investing (as if he paid me sufficiently to have anything left over to invest) and explain explained how you could choose "ethical" investments only, ie not investing in things like tobacco, or anything that goes against your personal values.  He told me he completely ignored that part though lol, but still considered himself a liberal and a "good person".  Idk.  I don't lock shit personally, not my house or my car, and I've never had anything stolen.  I'm not sure if what I said adds up or is coherent, I'm pretty tired rn.

Walmart accepts returns, they don't care why you're returning it. They guarantee produce, they don't ask to see your rotten watermelon. No one does this, no employee cares, because they are just agents acting on something larger, a policy that works for the company. Like an insurance company can cancel you flat out for having a roof over 10 years old or require your 91 year old mother to buy renter's insurance because you bought her house so she wouldn't lose her home. It's just policy. No one cares about you. That's the salvation and the downfall. No one is present in it. 

[Jonas Long]

@Mandy so it's always business, never personal.  I used to have a scam with my friend to take advantage of that Walmart policy lol

[Mandy]

@Jonas Long How'd that work out for you?

[Jonas Long]

1 minute ago, Mandy said:

@Jonas Long How'd that work out for you?

Fine I guess, we got free shit for a while and never got caught.  This was, like 20 years ago 

[Phil]

“Don’t Start Believin”.

[Isagi Yoichi]

5 hours ago, Jonas Long said:

Like the boss of my last job took me aside on my 35th birthday to teach me how to do online investing (as if he paid me sufficiently to have anything left over to invest) and explain explained how you could choose "ethical" investments only, ie not investing in things like tobacco, or anything that goes against your personal values.  He told me he completely ignored that part though lol, but still considered himself a liberal and a "good person".  Idk.  I don't lock shit personally, not my house or my car, and I've never had anything stolen.  I'm not sure if what I said adds up or is coherent, I'm pretty tired rn.

he is one of those fucking clowns who like to show off typical asshole

[Jonas Long]

10 minutes ago, Isagi Yoichi said:

he is one of those fucking clowns who like to show off typical asshole

Kind of yeah, but it wasn't personal lol just business.

[Isagi Yoichi]

1 minute ago, Jonas Long said:

Kind of yeah, but it wasn't personal lol just business.

wdym was his teaching about how to do your job or something personal? 

[Jonas Long]

8 minutes ago, Isagi Yoichi said:

wdym was his teaching about how to do your job or something personal? 

It's never personal.

[Isagi Yoichi]

2 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

It's never personal.

wdym it would be very odd to me if someone came to me and gave me advice out of nowhere especially if we both know that it's showing off lol

Edited April 6 by Isagi Yoichi

[Blessed2]

Maybe it's projection.

 

Kind of if I'd say that you must not lie because if you do, God will judge you and send you to hell.

 

Then you'd go around trying not to lie and feeling horrible.

 

Though would it really be you telling lies?

 

[Phil]

What if the benefit of doubt is in receiving / acknowledging it - not giving it?

Would you say in that case it’s 95-99.9%, or absolute & infallible?

 

If you’re sure you’re being tricked or fooled - are you really then actually being tricked or fooled?

If you are being tricked or fooled, can you honestly say you’re sure?

 

What are the ramifications in terms of dis-ease & well-being, deception & integrity?

 

How does this relate to communication?

What is the benefit of that in terms of as that is what’s given?

 

[Mandy]

2 hours ago, Blessed2 said:

Maybe it's projection.

 

Kind of if I'd say that you must not lie because if you do, God will judge you and send you to hell.

 

Then you'd go around trying not to lie and feeling horrible.

 

Though would it really be you telling lies?

Why would anyone lie other than that they don't believe they can attract what they want without deceiving another? That they won't be loved, accepted, or forgiven? It's a spillover of lack of self respect. There's no God judging but the root self deception that results in motivations of lying to another is what the term karma points to.

 

From an attraction standpoint, it could very well be that I don't respect my own time, I'm trying to manipulate and milk everything out of it, telling myself I'm content with impatience because of the belief that it's limited. 🤷

 

[Mandy]

10 minutes ago, Phil said:

What if the benefit of doubt is in receiving / acknowledging it - not giving it?

Would you say in that case it’s 95-99.9%, or absolute & infallible?

No, guidance is guidance. 

11 minutes ago, Phil said:

If you’re sure you’re being tricked or fooled - are you really then actually being tricked or fooled?

If you are being tricked or fooled, can you honestly say you’re sure?

No. 

12 minutes ago, Phil said:

What are the ramifications in terms of dis-ease & well-being, deception & integrity?

That all deception is self deception. 

 

The question is whether or not it is better to just stay in pessimism, doubt or discouragement rather than venturing all the way up to hopefulness, or joy positive expectation and falling on your ass hard. I tell myself I know better and won't fall on my ass. Fall on my ass anyway. It's not so much the deception, it's the falling on the ass that I'm disappointed in. I want to drill through the rock and put a hold there. 😂 Why is this always freeclimbing? I know and will always say it's better to move up the scale and take the fall, but I don't really believe that. It seems like smart, shrewd people stay in doubt and pessimism, skepticism. 

 

 I've thought about making a thread about this subject for a while, but haven't done it yet. 

 

24 minutes ago, Phil said:

How does this relate to communication?

What is the benefit of that in terms of as that is what’s given?

Could you rephrase that another way please? 

 

 

 

[Mandy]

It's a fundamental lack of trust in feeling, awareness guidance. That the idea or a relationship can feel so good at first, but that it can end so badly. The "end" is not the end but a thought or a judgement that feeling is now saying "BS" to. 😂

 

It's funny and totally makes sense but I'm still pissed. 😂