fopylo

@Phil What is feeling if not a thought about a 'me' that is 'feeling'? Is there really a difference between feeling your breath and feeling beneath your butt? Yeah but you do agree with me that when the intention is to focus on the feeling of the breath you are thinking more - you intend to focus on the breath and not just be like 'oh fuck meditation, imma just live life' (meaning you decide to focus your attention on your breath instead of letting go of all of that, like in day to day living. Meditation requires more effort than day to day 'regular' living. What would you like me to hear? I mean, yeah fine no problem but kinda not cool man It sounds very different than the way you explained leadership before.

In my opinion there is too much emphasis on 'desire', as though if you're not desiring, then what the hell are you doing? If you aren't focusing on desire then perhaps you are suffering/ not getting what you want... I believe this simply isn't the case. I would replace 'desire' with a general thought that feels good/ refreshing/ relieving/ true, which includes also, desire. It is not about the desire, but rather a good feeling thoughts that LoA is trying to aim at. I have and still am contemplating the nature of good feeling, which can be very tricky, especially if you have unconsciously built lots of judgements surrounding certain things like what you should do, what you should like, who you should become, what is expected from you, which can feel very discordant and resistance occurs, veiling what you are truly after. Likewise, you may find out that you really do want to do what you believe you should do, but that would be without the focus on the 'should', simply because in that scenario you won't hold much beliefs/principals regarding the activity.

@Phil Oh, so there is still the experience of thoughts but you don't see them as 'thoughts', as something separate from physical reality. I just did a 20 minute meditation of focusing on my breath. Thoughts of 'breath', 'me', 'breather', 'meditator', 'feeler' arise, as well as interpretations of the sensation and images of what I'm trying to focus on. I believe when you say feel you mean to witness the sensation exactly as it is, right? (question). - but it isn't so easy. Anyway, as you said, allowing thoughts to settle, so the more I focus on the feeling of my breath the beliefs of 'body part/areas' starts to melt away, and then when I continue focusing on the feeling of my breath - I am feeling my entire body. Does this make sense to you? (question) In the middle of the session I decided to do it with eyes open because it felt more relieving and I could better experience feeling without thoughts of 'breath', 'me', 'breather', 'meditator', 'feeler'. But since I didn't experience so many thoughts it got me wonder - the more I feel the less beliefs/thoughts I experience, and that means less conceptualization of feeling... and if there is no conceptualization of feeling... then 'feeling' (as a concept, as an idea) ceases to exist... So my wonder is whether feeling happens naturally as the result of relinquishing beliefs, and is basically acceptance (feeling = acceptance) ? It's kinda funny, because I could be very engaged in some sport (assuming it is very fun) and not realize that the reason for that fun is because I am focused on feeling; Why? - Because if and when I am having fun I am not thinking about the fact that I'm feeling, otherwise I wouldn't be feeling. So paradoxical omg lol Listen, if you were to ask some other user here the same question (What pic are you at?) and he would've told you "pic 10", then what would be your response? The user that says that he's/she's at pic 10 obviously understands greatly the nature of thought and how everything is an illusion and that there are no 'selves', 'other', 'me', 'thought', 'illusion'. There is a reason why pic 10 exists - for communication's purpose man. I might not understand shit, and you probably aren't satisfied with condensing your experience into a description that you feel does a great disservice to what is true to you, and yet I'd still like to hear. Remind me how meditation will help me become a leader (and for that matter, anything I wish to become)? Is it because the thought of 'being a leader' feels good? I just don't understand the part of how feeling good means you become a leader, or anything else you wish to become simply by feeling good?

@Phil Sounds very interesting. How can you experience life with no thoughts? Damn! But thoughts do help me understand what you mean by 'feeling', 'averting', 'want', 'freedom', 'emotion' - you explain those concepts to me and then it is easier for me (once I know this lingo) to translate my experience better and be like "ah ha! Now I know what he meant by____". By "give form" I mean representation (thought) of how something is believed to be. Question understood... Yet for some reason no answer? Fine, if you're being honest then whatever, but just saying that you asked me this exact question with the anticipation of me answering you with something like "pic 2", "probably pic 3". I get that you must be at pic 8 or above since you clearly see in your moment to moment experience how 'you' and 'me' are constructs (I am not aware of that, and don't tell me that there's no 'I' to be aware, there is an experiential gap between us). Are you at pic 10? (Is pic 10 your experience) Am I at pic 3? Answer: Yes, at least I believe so

@Lotus Yes No Yes I don't know/see

@Phil I'll tell you what, I don't think you're wrong. There is great benefit of meditation and inspecting direct experience, however, I really like asking questions in order to understand the how and the why of the nature of this direct experience/reality. Meditating now would be different than meditating 2 years ago because now I know and understand more, for instance: You have helped me by suggesting I put more attention to the way things make me feel rather than if they're right/wrong in making decisions. I understood (through day to day living and inspecting) that all my satisfying decisions are made because it feels good/true/relieving, and the unsatisfying decisions are made because of averting from feeling and believing some principal(s). Reading books helps me inspect while I'm reading and to consider other peoples' perspectives to be leading me on the right path. I think it is healthy and encouraged. You are saying it as though there are no thoughts during meditation. They just come and go more fluidly (ime). No but come on, like, you did understand the question though. Obviously I was using 'you', 'at' for communication purpose. You asked me the same exact question just before lol. So, what pic would you say represents your experience? I am asking because I am curious.

@Phil Hey, out of the blue just decided to share something. Alright, I decided to meditate... After a training session + a walk with my dog + the fact I was in my room tired, I decided to meditate. I sat down on the floor and tried focusing on the feeling beneath my butt. As I've predicted, thoughts came up and tried to give form to the feeling (thought), to the overall experience of "me meditating" (thought). My goal was to inspect and test out in the "flesh" my concerns I laid upon you. What I realized is that as I am focused on the sensation (sensation is a label but at the moment I was experiencing it with as little labels as I could), the more thoughts seem to come and go, appear at their "pace". But that is meanwhile I am intentionally focusing on the sensation. However, when a thought arises and I focus on it, the more it seems to be attached, "stuck", "mindlessly" going with it without consideration of whether it feels natural or not. As I am keeping to shift my focus back to the sensation I wanted to understand the change in feeling when thoughts aren't about giving form to the sensation. So, naturally, thought about the feeling and 'me' feeling and meditating arise (natural) - and here is a key difference from the previous attempts. At this moment I usually get frustrated that the thoughts are about conceptualizing the experience and that it is somehow wrong. There is a difference between wrong and false - yes, the thoughts are just pointers and can't exactly represent actual reality, however, at the end of the day this whole life is one big mind and everything you believe to be reality is false by default (or true, depends on how you look at it), and so I am just going along with that thought, as long as it feels natural. I continue to focus on the feeling and I see colors, landscapes, trees, martial arts, people training, and now I believe the feeling is coming from those images, like it's derived from it. Continuing more and I came to realize that this feeling is what's grounding me in the present moment, the default realm in which thoughts come and go, and feeling inspires them. I started feeling content and then I had cool ass thoughts and beautiful desirable scenes, but still trying to shift my focus back to the feeling of my butt, and I realized - that focusing on the feeling of the butt ≠ deliberately focusing on thoughts about my butt and me, and so I was feeling as though the feeling of my butt is the exact feeling that is inspiring those creative beautiful thoughts. After all thoughts are let go at Contentment, the feeling inspires very desirable thoughts (I have also inspected while having a shower and feeling the warm water wash my body). Still, however, I have questions remaining concerning the boundaries of sensations. I need to chill down lol. This was just a little experience, but there is some more practice until it becomes a realization.

@Phil Come on man, I just asked a few questions above and it seems you just don't want to answer and I'd rather you tell me you don't know if you really don't know the answer

@Phil I suggest you add a feature that enables you to save/book comments/posts (like you had on actualized.org). I find myself sometimes blown away from a powerful comment that I'd like to review again and won't want to lose it, therefore, the beneficiary of the feature. Thanks

Wow this is powerful! Thanks man

@Indisguise I don't think it's reasonable simply because secretly the stronger desire is "I want to play video games" and the discord/suffering arises when you focus on "I don't want to live like that and I am not capable of living this good life", but there's also focusing on ... and allowing it in

@Mandy For some reason SoundCloud tends to boost the songs and I have to cut my output volume to half what it was lol

But is it correct though? Do you have any feedback on it? It sounds like you're saying "if you believe so, then fine, go ahead and believe it", which confuses me whether I'm "getting it" or not

@Phil

@Phil I asked some questions though

@Phil That's all?

@Phil It is though. I meant the 'tingling', 'contrast', 'stretching of the stomach', 'inhale/exhale', 'breathing/not breathing' - these are all labels, images. Thank you, but why did you think so, that this is the belief that causes the emotion of overwhelment? Regardless, I have a question about emotions: Do emotions lie on the spectrum between unwanted (thoughts) and wanted (thoughts)? Also, I've realized a greater insight about the nature of good feeling: I have believed for a long time that feeling better means you are smiling more, feel warmer in your body and excited by life and have lots of energy. Now I am realizing that feeling good means feeling relief from your subjective experience (and I want to believe that feeling, in itself, is feeling good, but I still need to confirm). Meaning is the believing of thoughts and seems to be a thing if & when believed. Ok, I don't know if you somehow tried to riddle your answer here but I didn't find it so clear. What I meant to ask you is right now, right this moment, you focus on the feeling of your arms; wait like 5 seconds and now focus on the thoughts - What is the difference in experience? Form & meaning are thoughts. Yes, this is what I'm saying. I've realized that when I experience a sensation, even hear a sound (maybe even when looking at something, but we'll leave it), thoughts immediately rush in trying to give it form, and ideas about what it actually is, trying as accurately as it can to explain what is actually going on. And your example is really emphasizing what I am saying, so great example! So not feeling = yes thoughts? If that's the case, then: not hearing = yes thoughts, not seeing = yes thoughts? If there is no sensation, then thought will cover up for it deluding you? But as your example, "looking at the moon" would mean looking at the vast infinite nature of raw experience? I also noticed that the deeper I focus on hearing, the deeper I believe the thoughts arising. But with regard to my question, is it possible to feel only my arm, and not my entire body? (Since localization is just a thought) Hey man, I'm gonna be very straightforward with you - I really don't give a damn about all this stuff. I could really care less. Thanks for the suggestions though (should have said it before. Oh, wait one second. This is a great opportunity to practice what you've just said, because hell, I wouldn't just free time on my own to do it. I am witnessing my fingers typing. Yo man, I don't know what to say. Like in the moment of writing I am focusing on what I am gonna say, but somehow the feeling of my fingers typing just plays into it, as though it is part of the overall experience. It complements it somehow, but I don't really know. Usually I don't ever considering having feeling my fingers typing (but only after I've finished typing I can confirm that I have felt a feeling, because I am not aware that I am even feeling. There is no such thing as "focusing on feeling", because it somehow tends to involve the mind a lot). But what do you mean by 'Allow'? Anyhow, since I'm lazy as hell, I'll practice it only when I'll already be intending to type something. As regard to everything else you said man... No offense but I couldn't give s sh*t about sugar and caffeine consumption (I anyways barely drink caffeine), and really about the eating part. Meditation and putting time aside for ruminating also, but I might consider, the meditation more. It seems for me that pic 3 rings for me, especially the 'connecting the dots', but still don't feel like I am really experiencing everything in depth. I feel like I have quite a way before I move into pic 4. Reversing the question back to you - Which pic are you at on your path? Beautiful

@Phil This: Was the process I described earlier a healthy process? If not, what should be a better way to approach meditation? What does it mean to focus on feeling? What does it mean to focus on thought? (in your experience) Can you not focus on feeling? When you say focus on the feeling of___, I localize the body part, give it form - in thought, however, is sensational 'areas' true? Like, you can decide to focus on a certain area of your body, but what does it actually mean? Even if you decide to limit your focus to a certain area, isn't sensation something that is occurring throughout your whole body 24/7? Focus is starting to become a mystery to me. Ok well then just don't read the last sentence, it wasn't the important part. Something that I realized: When I feel a certain sensation, thought tend to come and capture, give meaning and form the experience (trying to capture it as accurately as it can so that it will be believed more easily to represent actual reality). However, the case doesn't seem to change; Thought are always appearing giving form, and I can't change this fact, try and push it aside. When I feel the feeling of my foot pressing on the floor - this description in itself is because the more I focus on the feeling, the more the thoughts try to accurately represent what is actually happening. When focusing on this feeling most of what I see are images of a foot pressing the floor rather than dragons fighting with fire. When I have random thoughts of people I know, of sunset, a scene from a show, my family, my duties, and then I suddenly focus on the feeling of my foot on the floor - My thoughts are becoming more about a foot pressing the floor, as opposed to the pleasant more interesting thoughts I was having just a moment ago. I meant more like, thinking about the thought 'apple', and then thinking the thought 'apple' + focusing on the feeling of your butt.

@Phil That's all? I believe I was presenting a struggle I have with it. I would really like to understand the nature of thoughts together with feeling. If I feel an itch, automatically a thought of the body part that itches arises and some 'effects'. This is how my mind decides to do... Anyway, I actually have a question that came up yesterday: How would you differentiate between an experience of focusing on feeling and an experience of focusing on the thought that arises. As an example: You have thoughts about food, and you have sensation at the bottom of your butt, and the thoughts and sensation are identical in both scenarios - putting attention on the thoughts and putting attention on the feeling of your butt. What is the difference? dots are connecting

@Phil Closing eyes, having in mind 'breath' - understand all form I give it is in thought, therefore there is no form of the actual breath I intend to focus on; blurry and unclear. Naturally, thoughts arise and images of 'breath', 'breathing', 'breather' appear. I understand that these are thoughts and then what I try to do is "focus on the feeling of breathing in the stomach" - and as you might see, this is a pandora box for many thoughts to arise, even if this is a pointer to the actual thing you're trying to refer to. I then realize that the only way I confirm feeling the breath from the stomach, is thoughts (tingling, contrast, streching of the stomach, inhale/exhale, breathing/not breathing). And when I realized that all of this is just thought, it gets overwhelming - trying to meditate 'properly' and figure out why it's a struggle, and it overwhelms me. I get frustrated and it seems more like a hurdle than a pleasant activity. I then don't enjoy the practice and take a break from it. Here, you actually got me to straightforwardly and boldly explain how my meditation process goes. Thank you for bringing this out of me. I hope to be more honest and bold about my experience like now. Thanks man, I really appreciate you telling me this. My contemplation and questioning have leveled up hmm... I think I get what you say, but it seems to me that certain thoughts will evoke the feeling more than others. Again, bold and straightforward, I'll give an example: I just gave myself a hurting long scratch on my arm. I felt the sensation, but felt it more when I was looking at my arm while doing it and at the scratch; but when I look back at the screen the sensation fades quite quick, or is just way less felt, and it gives room for other sensations to arise. But with more subtle feelings, like the feeling of my arm - I'll be honest with you and stop kidding myself - No, I can't feel the sensation of my arm. It is too subtle to be noticed, especially when I'm not looking at it and focused on something else (like the screen). Natural sensations ebb and flow in random locations all across the body, and if I am to decide 'focus attention on the feeling of the left arm' (implying that I don't currently sense it naturally) then thoughts arise about its location, assumptions about the feeling and the idea of a 'left arm'. It was hard for me to read that, after the many times I've heard this sort of stuff after expressing my frustration with meditation and then having the same issues again. It's actually relieving to hear that it's ok to stop, but question - won't stopping meditation for a while affect my 'growth' (recognizing my my true nature/ more liberated)? I don't really want to tell myself to start expressing by writing. If I feel like, then I might, but I don't think I will. I do exercise, if this is considered, and play the piano here and there. I get it! - to be more relaxed and relieved from the refreshment of being open to take a read. I have read it like once or twice a while ago, but alright, I'll give it a read. Btw it really helps you telling me that I experience around the second and third pics, got me curious. By 'anyone can change' do you mean change for the (subjective) better? 'Better' not as in specific roles like a 'leader', 'strategist', 'smart', 'funny', 'confident'.... but rather in the better feeling of liberation and the freedom to focus on the traits that ring true to you and that you naturally want to gravitate towards and that you are the authority to realize that you can feel this way if you choose to and it feels natural? Blah blah, sentence is messed up and I try to wrap my mind on it lol Watched it long ago lol. Perhaps I'll give it a rewatch

@Phil You know man, meditation is something I've been struggling with for quite a while, trying to wrap my mind what is it about, how to approach it and what the focus is. It seems for me (after contemplation) that it is one big mind game, and that all meditations are based on thought-based awareness meditation. When you say focus on your breath, you are referring to a thought, right? (about the breath, breathing, breather) When you say feel the feeling of your___, you mean bring up the thought of the body part/image of sensation and its 'location' and inspect whether it (the thought) feels aligning or with discord, no? Man I'm not really meditating, like once every few days. I close my eyes and I'm bombarded with thoughts that feel forced and I recognize the discord, and then try to bring up more relieving thoughts, and that is the problem, that I'm trying too much - trying, trying to improve/ to fix/ to become better. I guess you can say (like always) to inspect the one whom I'm referring to, and yes, thoughts about an individual with a sense of identity that I see to be me but doesn't feel so good. I think I'm 'stuck' because every time I think I got out of this loop, I just find myself to be tricked and back in the loop (yes, there is no such thing as in the loop, used it as a pointer). But by the way, for the sake of the preceding question, I meant to ask more like what do you mean by 'change' as in 'anyone can change'? Perhaps everything we consider as reality is a thought? One gigantic thought thinking? Since every thing I look at comes with some sort of assessment, confirmation, relation, existence/non-existence, I can see how our reality is just one huge mind, and within the mind you can divide it into layers (thoughts and physical reality), and that's probably why I hear statements such as "reality collapsing", "deconstructing science", "collapsing materialism" - because they are all thought-based and the 'collapsing' is the recognition of it being thoughts and not as reality itself?

@Faith I would like to live for some time either in the States, China, Japan, or London

@Phil The website recommends you take the test once every 5 months because they understand people go through experiments that shape their personality differently. But what do you mean by "anyone can change by bringing the mind to rest and this change is the desirable change"? How do you change by bringing the mind to rest? About my personality results - when I read it it just clicked so much and had those ah ha moments, but some good time later I am believing I might not have the proper trait for a leader though. The traits this personality has are great and I like them because they ring true. The ‘separate self’ is an illusion of thought attachment which is dispelled with meditation and inspection of thoughts. Disillusionment is the process of dispelling / liberation, freeing from the illusion / thought attachment. A leader is a (is believed to be) ‘separate self’. Yeah but you said to dispel disillusionment rather than to dispel illusion It seems like you're saying thoughts don't even really happen... I've actually received this question after contemplating the question "How can I know other people experience thoughts as well" and I just couldn't, and I was in a constant loop of seeing how this is all my thinking, so maybe it doesn't exist? Direct experience will guide me whether I will want a higher position?

@Faith Current house is the house I'm still living in (the 'perfect' location), the one we're about to move out from in like 2 months. New house is the house we will rent for 2 years in this far unattractive area. House after 2 years is right across the street of the new house and is currently being built, the house we bought. Yeah, this might be some alleviating news because I will be sleeping most of the time outside the house, and it might help ease with that change. I still do care because after the military I'll still be living there

Sometimes it is in the cost of more innocent deaths and greater disaster, but sometimes not. Not all decisions are perfect in aftermath, but you think on your feet, and you try taking the best measure of judgement for the situation. And a great leader will put himself in front and fight during battle as well.