Do we have free will ?

[nurthur11]

@Someone hereif you want to experience the sense of having a free will then you notice the difference between letting awareness/attention do the work vs you doing the work.
 

On 8/19/2022 at 3:45 PM, Someone here said:

Get a piece of paper and pen, and write down the first movie that comes to mind, no deliberation.

Notice how the content of whatever movie it was, was completely unanticipated and random? It just happened, perhaps it was related to a recent memory, or experience you had today. Notice how that was also out of control.

Now extend the realization of this experience of happening, of thinking of a movie, to your entire existence.

Free will ain't there. It's all just pure happening.

Any insights on the subject appreciated 🙏. 

This is exactly how attention/awareness work it does the “calculations ” without your concern - it is meant to work that way. So there is no deliberation the deliberation in this case is to write a list or the movies down then attention/awareness takes over. Try to watch a movie and focus on frame by frame(like a mindful meditation) vs try to just let attention do the work. The attention will completely shift how you will experience the movie and how you gain information, and also you will lose the sense of free will because its the capacity/function of your attention doing the work.

 

If this is too hard to understand just do something and let the meaning come vs try to come up with it yourself. It is very intuitive but if you are too focused on figuring out you will lose the how it is done.  It is not even important to notice awareness as a feeling or rest in being or find yourself or believe that you are attention. This is a capacity all humans have some more than others. 

Knowing the difference between letting attention/awareness do the work vs you trying to do the work will build a sense of free will in you. 

 

Example of what i call free will: i know i act mean sometimes and i know is bad but it makes me feel good(so there is an aspect of addiction there).But I talk with myself and i decide is bad and dont do it anymore. Next time It comes i let awareness help me get over it and choose something else that makes me feel good. There you go: free will. 
 

Edited August 20, 2022 by nurthur11

[Orb]

@James123

 

22 minutes ago, James123 said:

What is god?

 

This is a circular question.

 

I get it though.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Orb

[James123]

4 minutes ago, Orb said:

@James123

 

 

This is a circular question.

Tell me something about god, which is not a thought or belief. 

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Philso we are back again arguinng about the separate self 😅 ? When are  we going yo make progress lol jk ?

 

People commonly believe that they have a separate self that is fixed and unchanging, an inside core that is a me. Despite noticing that thoughts, feelings, perceptions and body sensations change every instant, it is believed that there exists a separate self that remains the same.

And I understand this perfectly..

 

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

People commonly believe

 

There is no actual experience of “people believe”. That’s a conceptualization, believed. 

It would be more earnest to say… “I believe that there are people, and I believe that people commonly believe x, y or z.”

Then it could be seen there is no I which understands that ⬆️ “perfectly”… and can be seen more clearly as a belief. 

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

There is no independent self that is ever separate from what happens. The whole mirage of subjectivity depends upon countless conditions that are not subjective. For instance, a seer could not exist without the seen. Therefore, there is no actual seer of things. For a seer cannot itself see. In other words, a subject needs an object to be a subject. Both are inseparable, mutually arisen. This also applies to thought, emotion, perception and sensation.

 

so my question still unanswered ..

The ‘separate self’ or separate selves is the underlying implication. 

It would be more forthright to say… “My question… which you still haven’t answered”.

Then it could be more readily seen the question is contingent on the belief in separate selves. 

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

and I mentioned this point to you over and over again throughout this thread but you seemed to ignore it (not sure why )

These replies & a video are the evidence that isn’t accurate. 

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

even though it's the key point that unlocks this whole issue..is that if there is no separate self ..no thinker that thinks thoughts..no doer that do actions..then

 

how can there be free will ,

Who’s claiming that there is? 

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

 

when the whole point is that free will belongs  to the person (which doesn't even funking exist )???

 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, James123 said:

What is god?

 

😂 You are always whqt you are. Just lost in process of thoughts. You are just focused on a drop of water in the ocean, You are the entire ocean, so one drop of ocean is not separate than entire ocean. Therefore, in a drop of ocean can seem as an free will meanwhile, in entire ocean is not. You have to what You really are. You are operating from so called ego now. And will never get it.

I'm guessing in this analogy..the drop is the ego self ..and the ocean is the infinite self..which one has or hasn't free will? 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, nurthur11 said:

@Someone hereif you want to experience the sense of having a free will then you notice the difference between letting awareness/attention do the work vs you doing the work.
 

This is exactly how attention/awareness work it does the “calculations ” without your concern - it is meant to work that way. So there is no deliberation the deliberation in this case is to write a list or the movies down then attention/awareness takes over. Try to watch a movie and focus on frame by frame(like a mindful meditation) vs try to just let attention do the work. The attention will completely shift how you will experience the movie and how you gain information, and also you will lose the sense of free will because its the capacity/function of your attention doing the work.

 

If this is too hard to understand just do something and let the meaning come vs try to come up with it yourself. It is very intuitive but if you are too focused on figuring out you will lose the how it is done.  It is not even important to notice awareness as a feeling or rest in being or find yourself or believe that you are attention. This is a capacity all humans have some more than others. 

Knowing the difference between letting attention/awareness do the work vs you trying to do the work will build a sense of free will in you. 

 

Example of what i call free will: i know i act mean sometimes and i know is bad but it makes me feel good(so there is an aspect of addiction there).But I talk with myself and i decide is bad and dont do it anymore. Next time It comes i let awareness help me get over it and choose something else that makes me feel good. There you go: free will. 
 

I see what you're  saying .but I would say that any point in time, you can decide to do something. And go do it.

When you enter the shop, you can pick the cheese sandwich or the tuna.

Our mind/brains make real decisions, and these decisions select which future path to follow.

That feels like free will. And for most purposes we can regard our decision making process as free. This is the so-called illusion of free will.

It only gets complicated when we try to discover what is the origin of the decision. What made us pick tuna not cheese?

If we answer “It’s just a mystery, no one can ever know” .. then we can maintain the notion of free will. If we regard the mind as a black box, then free will is a thing.

[Someone here]

58 minutes ago, Phil said:

Who’s claiming that there is? 

So please let's cut the shit and be as brief and precise as possible..do I have free will or not ? I'm expecting a straightforward answer (a yes or no answer ) because we can go on like this until tomorrow and still not arrive at a reasonable conclusion. 

[James123]

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I'm guessing in this analogy..the drop is the ego self ..and the ocean is the infinite self..which one has or hasn't free will? 

Not an infinite self. Only true self. Just take an example of black whole. Whatever goes inside, it is vanishes. Will it change for anything for black whole? The ego is the stars thats goes in to black whole, you “think” you are the star thats why you have an free will, meanwhile when you realize what You really are, realization happens that there is no free will. Because there was never a “you” in first place. 

[Orb]

@James123 that's still circular, theres no answer for these questions. 

[James123]

24 minutes ago, Orb said:

@James123  theres no answer 

👍👍

[Orb]

@James123 🙏💙

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

So please let's cut the shit and be as brief and precise as possible..do I have free will or not ? I'm expecting a straightforward answer (a yes or no answer ) because we can go on like this until tomorrow and still not arrive at a reasonable conclusion. 

Would you agree that not having free will would more or less basically mean your experience is really more the result of a past unfolding, and or causations, fields, randomness, determination, etc? Something along those lines more or less?

[Mandy]

@Someone here If you could have it ANY way you wanted... if I'm a magical Genie and I ask you, "do you want free will or no free will?" Which would you choose? 

[nurthur11]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

I see what you're  saying .but I would say that any point in time, you can decide to do something. And go do it.

When you enter the shop, you can pick the cheese sandwich or the tuna.

Our mind/brains make real decisions, and these decisions select which future path to follow.

That feels like free will. And for most purposes we can regard our decision making process as free. This is the so-called illusion of free will.

It only gets complicated when we try to discover what is the origin of the decision. What made us pick tuna not cheese?

If we answer “It’s just a mystery, no one can ever know” .. then we can maintain the notion of free will. If we regard the mind as a black box, then free will is a thing.

I dont think we got the information to make this discussion nor that it is relevant. 
What would be a problem is to get stuck in the belief that nothing is in your control and is your brain who is running the show - i think that would just make your hurt yourself. 

[nurthur11]

18 minutes ago, Mandy said:

@Someone here If you could have it ANY way you wanted... if I'm a magical Genie and I ask you, "do you want free will or no free will?" Which would you choose? 

What if i would choose free will but it doesn't come. Were did i go wrong then? 
 

I took the liberty of answering this question myself.

[Orb]

@Someone here Be honest with yourself, would knowing whether you do or dont have freewill change your life? Will it do anything for you?

 

This is another example of circular questioning, basically asking questions that dont contribute to creation, instead it centers around the thought about whether or not a separate self has freewill. (Im only saying whats really going on, I see this sentence may seem a little "pushy" or personal but it really isnt meant that way!)

 

Because the question doesnt lead to creation, its "circular" in that no answer will really satisfy you.

 

Someone will give you an answer that you consider a good answer to your question, but deep down you will still feel doubt about the answer (bc theres no separate self in the first place), so whatll happen is youll use the previous answer you got and restructure it and form a more specific and complex question, and then you'll receive a more complex answer, and then use that complex answer to form a more complex question and so on. This is the constant loop of circular questioning. Or I like to just call it circular thinking.

 

Dont fall for anyone who gives complex answers to meaningless (no offense) questions, because that person is actually stuck in the loop of circular questioning too! Blind leading the blind! 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Orb

[Someone here]

12 hours ago, Phil said:

Would you agree that not having free will would more or less basically mean your experience is really more the result of a past unfolding, and or causations, fields, randomness, determination, etc? Something along those lines more or less?

Yea I agree .if I have no free will..then either the universe is deterministic and everything was set and done at the moment of the big bang .

Because you know ..there are strict material/physical laws to this universe. So every outcome is an inevitable result of the previous causes . 

Or another options is to say its completely random. And I lean more towards that option because it has more descriptive power to my direct experience. That is ..when I experience a thought or action in direct experience..it seems like it spawns randomly out of nothing.  Just like typing this comment right now .I don't know how the heck I'm typing this ..the words just seem to get downloaded into my mind .

[Someone here]

10 hours ago, Mandy said:

@Someone here If you could have it ANY way you wanted... if I'm a magical Genie and I ask you, "do you want free will or no free will?" Which would you choose? 

I would choose free will ,obviously .

[Eothasian]

Randomness is not opposed to determinism.

Randomness is a form of determinism.

 

You need to look at the definitions you are holding.

[Someone here]

@Orb

I come back to this topic of free will and choice over and over again and I'm still stuck in the perspective that choice is completely illusion. 

there is no choice. You are not choosing anything. And I mean anything. Everything. 

You are not in control of what's happening right now . Its easy to prove if you try to imagine the thought you're going to have in the next 10 seconds.

In a sense.. I'm not writing this.. and you are not reading this. It's all being played and it's all karma. Circumstances are infinitely complex and destiny is inevitble. As the awareness watching the movie.. we have zero influence over the plot.

"You're not doing it, it's doing you" - Alan Watts

 

You didn't choose your birth as this particular human.. In this particular world.. In this particular part of the world.. In this particular Era.. To this particular family.. With this particular genetics.. With this particular gender.. With this particular look.. Yada yada..you didn't choose the language that you are speaking.. You didn't choose your upbringing.. You didn't choose your cultural conditioning.. You don't choose your heart beat.. You don't choose your thoughts.. You don't choose your actions.. You don't choose your reactions.. You don't choose what you agree with.. You don't choose what you disagree with.. You don't choose your beliefs.. your desires.. your traits your moods.. your habits.. your chances.. your anything lol...simply because you are not real as an individual. you yourself are a thought or at a best a continuity of conditioned thoughts been shaped by your environment.