Does enlightenment "do anything"?

[Omelette]

If two people lived the exact same lives up to a certain point, and one became enlightened, would these two begin having different lives?

 

Will the enlightened person receive more, be able to manifest more, etc., if it is what they want?

 

I am asking, are there material benefits from enlightenment?

I suppose it isn't too important, I only hope for material benefits because I think they will bring happiness... but even so, another question arises ...

 

Are there happiness benefits from enlightenment?

 

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Furthermore, does enlightenment stop bad things from happening?

 

Story of the Buddha says that his cousin tried to roll a heavy boulder onto him, but the boulder split apart and didn't kill the Buddha. His cousin also hired hitmen who were so in awe of the Buddha that they became his disciples instead of harming him.

 

How does this factor into spirituality?

Will an enlightened one have more favorable luck, when dealing with things like health issues, likelihood of being a victim of crime, etc.?

 

Finally, what about things that are seemingly impossible to humans?

Siddhis come to mind, I also wonder if someone can do things like cure diseases without any medication or treatment, just their abilities as a result of their spiritual journey.

 

Something tells me (my own life hahaha) that pursuing spirituality solely to get some powers like this would not work. I wonder if someone with more pure intentions is able to get something from enlightenment...

 

Why do we walk this path, what is coming at the end? Do I even have a choice to "walk the path" (or does this I exist?) or it is just happening?

[Aware Wolf]

Good question. There's a lot to say here. 

 

45 minutes ago, Omelette said:

If two people lived the exact same lives up to a certain point, and one became enlightened, would these two begin having different lives?

 

On the one hand, we should expect some difference, because otherwise what's the point. Then again, an enlightened person can live an ordinary life too and not take on airs. Sometimes they say we may meet an enlightened person and not know it. Dogen says we may not even be aware of our own enlightenment. 

 

 

45 minutes ago, Omelette said:

Will the enlightened person receive more, be able to manifest more, etc., if it is what they want?

 

Did Buddha manifest "more"? Ramana? 

 

There was a yogi who would manifest watches ! (then a BBC documentary crew found film evidence of sleight of hand)

 

Uusually the riches are in a spiritual kingdom. Buddhism tries to minimize craving/wanting. 

 

As Tenzin Palmo told me, even if you do get what you want -- you're still stuck in samsara. I mention often all the rock stars who killed themselves at a young age. They had riches, fame, groupies... but still... 

 

 

45 minutes ago, Omelette said:

I am asking, are there material benefits from enlightenment?

 

IMO, NO. But there's a book, The Diamond Cutter, by Michael Roach, a Buddhist who went into the diamond business and became rich. Roach is controversial, He's popular among the rich because he says the rich are blessed with good karma. While if you're poor -- its your own fault. 

 

Although if one spent six months at a monastery, getting up early, and getting a handle on one's mind -- it probably would be beneficial in any life path including business. 

 

45 minutes ago, Omelette said:

I suppose it isn't too important, I only hope for material benefits because I think they will bring happiness... but even so, another question arises ...

 

Are there happiness benefits from enlightenment?

 

Yes, but not all the time. One  of Buddhisms 7 factors of enlightenment is Joy. Though another is Equanimity. 

 

45 minutes ago, Omelette said:

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Furthermore, does enlightenment stop bad things from happening?

 

No. As you point out the Buddha had bad things happen to him. There's a zen koan: "An enlightened man falls into a well. How is this so?"

 

I like this quote from U Tejaniya:

 

 

You have to accept and watch both good and bad experiences.

 

You want only good experiences?

You don’t want even the tiniest   

unpleasant experience? 

Is that reasonable?

Is this the way of the Dhamma!

 

 

45 minutes ago, Omelette said:

Story of the Buddha says that his cousin tried to roll a heavy boulder onto him, but the boulder split apart and didn't kill the Buddha. His cousin also hired hitmen who were so in awe of the Buddha that they became his disciples instead of harming him.

 

How does this factor into spirituality?

Will an enlightened one have more favorable luck, when dealing with things like health issues, likelihood of being a victim of crime, etc.?

 

I say No, but Tibetan Buddhist friends might disagree. I point out practically, The Dalai Lama lost his country. Tibetan monks were massacred by the PLA. Gandhi was shot.  Lama Yeshe died of cancer at like 51. Trungpa died early of alcoholism. Monks get murdered. Nuns get raped. 

 

However I notice you say "dealing with" -- I think someone on the Path may be able to handle adversity better. It's not luck. It's equanimity, mindfulness, grit, and resilience. An awakened person can get stuck in traffic along with everyone else. They probably shouldn't throw a tantrum about it. Nor do I expect them to bliss out over it. Minus points too if they say "It's what the Universe wants, bro" in a non ironic way. 

 

Although it's never easy. This too shall pass...

 

 

45 minutes ago, Omelette said:

Finally, what about things that are seemingly impossible to humans?

Siddhis come to mind, I also wonder if someone can do things like cure diseases without any medication or treatment, just their abilities as a result of their spiritual journey.

 

Let them prove their claims. Interesting stories though. 

 

45 minutes ago, Omelette said:

Something tells me (my own life hahaha) that pursuing spirituality solely to get some powers like this would not work. I wonder if someone with more pure intentions is able to get something from enlightenment...

 

Why do we walk this path, what is coming at the end? Do I even have a choice to "walk the path" (or does this I exist?) or it is just happening?

 

Why do YOU walk this path? What's important to you? What is your concept of awakening? What does an enlightened @Omelettelook like? I believe our awakening is at least partially dependent upon our concept of it. 

 

There are no levels and Zen says there is nothing to attain. If there are levels or stages supposed, perhaps for pedagogical or other reasons, they don't unfold the same way for all and they're not always linear. People may be Primed too to have the expected experience: Yoga people may experience Kundalini, Mahasi people may note vibrations, Zen people may get Kensho, Shamans may receive a visit from an animal guide, Christian mystics may experience God, and Pentecostals may speak in Tongues. 

 

There’s huge individual differences too. Your experience is your experience. Your path is your path. Nothing apparently happening in your practice, practice variance, regression of practice, and spiritual bypassing will f*ck with people more than you think, even advanced practitioners. Maybe even you.

 

Awakening is like love. The experience we have of romantic love is formulated by our concept of romantic love. Perhaps an even clearer example of something that is defined by its concept, is money. If we all woke up tomorrow forgetting what money was, there would be no money. Money, Romantic Love, and Awakening are concepts. They do exist. But your experience of love depends at least partly upon your concept of love. Your experience of awakening depends at least partly upon your concept of awakening. Although not denying there may be other factors and some nonconceptual components included too. 

         -

 

Whether we hold to a perfect ideal or to freedom within our humanity, awakening is a mystery with which each tradition and student has to grapple.

The resolution of this mystery will finally be answered in the heart.

It is here that the opposites can be held, understood, reconciled.

Only the heart can contain both our perfection and our humanity. 

   Leaving maps and expectations behind, in the end we must turn our hearts in the direction of love and awareness, come what may.

In living from this awakened heart we all become bodhisattvas, all servants of the Divine.

We replace any claims of levels of enlightenment with a vow to awaken each moment, together with all beings.

This is the path of patience, compassion, wisdom, and generosity, the path of our willingness to live in the reality of the present.

Only here can we find freedom and rest in a timeless perfection.

As Suzuki Roshi put it: “Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity.”

If there is a self who claims enlightenment, that is not it.

Instead, he went on, “What we are speaking about is moment-to-moment enlightenment, one enlightenment after another.”

 

-- Jack Kornfield. After the Ecstasy, the Laundry. 

 

 

 

[Mandy]

13 hours ago, Omelette said:

If two people lived the exact same lives up to a certain point, and one became enlightened, would these two begin having different lives?

The one who became enlightened would realize in his enlightenment that the other was already enlightened and also himself. 

13 hours ago, Omelette said:

Will the enlightened person receive more, be able to manifest more, etc., if it is what they want?

Enlightenment is knowing that one is worth itself, not worthy/unworthy spectrums of worth, but that prior to the judgement of "more", "better" or any kind of worth, one is. 

13 hours ago, Omelette said:

I am asking, are there material benefits from enlightenment?

I suppose it isn't too important, I only hope for material benefits because I think they will bring happiness... but even so, another question arises ...

Enlightenment nullifies the material, it's the realization that it never was. One is not material, nor can one possess material things. The material does not bring happiness, because the material is illusory and happiness without opposite is a given. 

13 hours ago, Omelette said:

Are there happiness benefits from enlightenment?

Happiness, (not a shallow dualistic happiness thought to be the result of conditions) is realized to be one's true nature. Enlightenment is not an exchange or value based system. It's not a "you get a degree therefore you are qualified for this job and this income". There's no need to receive benefits from something by becoming worthy, when one realizes that they are the creator or worth itself. There's no longer a possibility of being worthy or unworthy. 

13 hours ago, Omelette said:

Furthermore, does enlightenment stop bad things from happening?

 

Story of the Buddha says that his cousin tried to roll a heavy boulder onto him, but the boulder split apart and didn't kill the Buddha. His cousin also hired hitmen who were so in awe of the Buddha that they became his disciples instead of harming him.

 

How does this factor into spirituality?

Will an enlightened one have more favorable luck, when dealing with things like health issues, likelihood of being a victim of crime, etc.?

Bad things already don't happen to individuals, this comes from mentally judging bad and good. This is a great read to see how we judge things good or bad is illusory, temporary, and apply this to our own lives. https://jaymavs.medium.com/maybe-so-maybe-not-well-see-c35f53da68e1

 

Miracles are possible because we aren't material.  What we believe to be possible or impossible is based on the false belief in the materialist paradigm and that we are a separate body mind. 

 

Luck is not a factor. There is something like faith in realizing that bad things occur for us not to us. When there is no separation there is no victim, no chance, no causes, no luck. We attract events, opportunities and lessons to us. Transmutation is when we no longer identify as the one that stuff happens to. Rather than identifying as the character within a novel, and being subject to the events happening before seeing the bigger picture, we know ourselves to be the Author in knowing the character to be a false limitation. 

 

13 hours ago, Omelette said:

Finally, what about things that are seemingly impossible to humans?

Siddhis come to mind, I also wonder if someone can do things like cure diseases without any medication or treatment, just their abilities as a result of their spiritual journey.

There's no "result of". What seems impossible is belief and identification as a human is a belief. When those beliefs are let go of, what was believed to be impossible may be recognized as possible. No one receives abilities as a result of. Many siddhis are present in childhood, and many people who have them hold lots of false beliefs. Siddhis may be recognized later or not. Again there is no individual who "has" siddhis. Liberation and siddhis have nothing to do with each other, except the common factor of that no one is holding a belief of what's possible for humans or not possible. 

13 hours ago, Omelette said:

Something tells me (my own life hahaha) that pursuing spirituality solely to get some powers like this would not work. I wonder if someone with more pure intentions is able to get something from enlightenment...

There's no "get something from". Only losing false identifications. 

 

13 hours ago, Omelette said:

Why do we walk this path, what is coming at the end? Do I even have a choice to "walk the path" (or does this I exist?) or it is just happening?

What is false might be said to be coming to an end, but only the false is born and can end. Walking the path points to what is actual, what is utterly now, not concepts of a spiritual journey. Minus the concept of the screen, the words, the person who wrote them, but the light they appear in and as, is you, and always has been you. You've never left yourSelf. 

[Phil]

16 hours ago, Omelette said:

If two people lived the exact same lives up to a certain point, and one became enlightened, would these two begin having different lives?

Will the enlightened person receive more, be able to manifest more, etc., if it is what they want?

I am asking, are there material benefits from enlightenment?

I suppose it isn't too important, I only hope for material benefits because I think they will bring happiness... but even so, another question arises ...

Are there happiness benefits from enlightenment?

Furthermore, does enlightenment stop bad things from happening?

Story of the Buddha says that his cousin tried to roll a heavy boulder onto him, but the boulder split apart and didn't kill the Buddha. His cousin also hired hitmen who were so in awe of the Buddha that they became his disciples instead of harming him.

How does this factor into spirituality?

Will an enlightened one have more favorable luck, when dealing with things like health issues, likelihood of being a victim of crime, etc.?

Why do we walk this path, what is coming at the end?

Do I even have a choice to "walk the path" (or does this I exist?) or it is just happening?

There’s enlightenment, but no enlightened person, people, self or selves, no one which awakens, has awakenings, etc. 

Happiness isn’t a material object, so happiness can’t be a thing one has, gets, a cause, an end, outcome or benefit.

16 hours ago, Omelette said:

Finally, what about things that are seemingly impossible to humans?

Siddhis come to mind, I also wonder if someone can do things like cure diseases without any medication or treatment, just their abilities as a result of their spiritual journey.

 

Something tells me (my own life hahaha) that pursuing spirituality solely to get some powers like this would not work. I wonder if someone with more pure intentions is able to get something from enlightenment...

It’s only from the false perspective of misidentification, aka ego, devil, separate self, etc, that there is space, time, a distance from me to you etc, etc, and it seems like there is woo woo, etc. From consciousness perspective distance healing & the like is normal common sense.

 

[Blessed2]

2 hours ago, Phil said:

It’s only from the false perspective of misidentification, aka ego, devil, separate self, etc, that there is space, time, a distance from me to you etc, etc, and it seems like there is woo woo, etc. From consciousness perspective distance healing & the like is normal common sense.

 

🤔 

[Phil]

@Blessed2

Didn’t mean to imply any vilification there btw. Just meant more, not-me by any name, all the same. 

 

[Phil]

On 8/25/2022 at 6:24 PM, Omelette said:

Why do we walk this path, what is coming at the end? Do I even have a choice to "walk the path" (or does this I exist?) or it is just happening?

Also, the truth is the most unthinkable, unbelievable, astounding & mindbending of all possibilities. Definitely walk the path. 🙂 

 

[Alexander]

 

[James123]

Bliss, fredoom, no suffering and love!!

[James123]

And enlightenment is just the biggest joke ever. So you can laugh a lot too 😂😂😂😂😂

[Robed Mystic]

On 8/25/2022 at 5:24 PM, Omelette said:

If two people lived the exact same lives up to a certain point, and one became enlightened, would these two begin having different lives?

 

Will the enlightened person receive more, be able to manifest more, etc., if it is what they want?

 

I am asking, are there material benefits from enlightenment?

I

It is the opposite of materialism.  You do not gain anything from the ego's standpoint because the ego passes away.  When you do return to your ego, however, you are armed with God realization.  Much wisdom is shoved into a small hole and now you must work to integrate all of this new found wisdom.   

Edited September 3, 2022 by Robed Mystic

[Phil]

On 9/2/2022 at 4:54 PM, James123 said:

And enlightenment is just the biggest joke ever. So you can laugh a lot too 😂😂😂😂😂

😂 😂 😂 

True dat. 👊🏻 

[Alexander]

18 hours ago, Robed Mystic said:

It is the opposite of materialism.  You do not gain anything from the ego's standpoint because the ego passes away.  When you do return to your ego, however, you are armed with God realization.  Much wisdom is shoved into a small hole and now you must work to integrate all of this new found wisdom.   

You don;t have to do anything