Can truth be painful?

[Forza21]

Can truth be painful? 

The big struggle i have, is when I suffer, and I see "God-Realization" through the lens of ego, which claims itself to be God. So it's basically pure solipsism trap, and madness, because ego claims itself to be the only real thing, and everything else is imaginary. All the world, doesn't exist, but this ego-mind of Forza. It's Sick.

When there's suffering, there are also thoughts like " what if it's how reality really is, and it's all pure suffering and hell? Maybe when i think otherwise, I avoid the truth? Perhaps "I' (the ego) created all this? Maybe when "I" die, i'll see all the people were imagined by me, (my ego) ?

BUT if this was true, and there was no other way to create reality, me, as Forza-God (haha), would never, ever, would want to awake. Like never. Because it would be awaking to pure hell.  I would design such reality, without even a single trace of possibility of awaking. 

So if God leaves all the possibility to one's awaking, through spirituality, meditation, psychedelics, all the spiritual gurus, religions, and much more, it means it wants the best for itself. It serves some purpose.

Therefore, the TRUTH must be blissful, must be love, must be happiness.
As God, i would want all the best for myself, right?

So, the implication of all this is: IF YOU SUFFER, IT'S NOT THE TRUTH. You are missing something. 

My bet is, what you miss, it "no self" realization. Ego claims God's throne. Because God is truly selfless, so there's no one to be lonely after realization. God is also love, so there's only that. 

is it correct way of reasoning?   Can truth be something other than blissful experience? is reality really perfect? and why? OR MAYBE, Could it be designed other than the way it is? 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Forza21

[Indisguise]

Notice that all of your suffering comes from "what if?"

"What if?" is not the same as "is".

[Loop]

The truth ain't painful or blissful, the truth is just what is. 

What is painful or blissful is your relationship to what is, and You are What Is. So really it is your relationship with yourself, how you treat yourself. 

I'd do it with Love! 😁 

[Forza21]

43 minutes ago, Indisguise said:

Notice that all of your suffering comes from "what if?"

"What if?" is not the same as "is".

Yes,  i guess it's still mental masturbation for me, and i'm fighting thoughts with other thoughts,... i guess i cant outsmart it. 

35 minutes ago, Loop said:

The truth ain't painful or blissful, the truth is just what is. 

What is painful or blissful is your relationship to what is, and You are What Is. So really it is your relationship with yourself, how you treat yourself. 

I'd do it with Love! 😁 

Yes, but the vision of "my ego is the only thing that exist, everything other is imaginary" is impossible to disprove with my current level of consciousness. So i don't know what it's true. So i don't have relationship with truth yet, cause it don't know "what is". 😞

Edited March 18, 2022 by Forza21

[Joseph Maynor]

In my opinion thinking in terms of truth and God is a trap on the path to spiritual enlightenment.  Those are rabbit holes, concepts.   You're gonna be looking in the wrong place until this is seen.  I love philosophy, but if what we're talking about is spiritual enlightenment we're "doing" and "thinking" about a subject matter that's entirely unique and different from concepts/language/talk.  It can be pointed to like a finger pointing to the moon, but even that has dangers to it because we want to find language that corresponds to "reality" and that's exactly what spiritual enlightenment works to get "beyond" or "behind."  There are pros and cons to talk when it comes to spiritual enlightenment work.  It's so easy to miss it when you start to hunt for it, especially conceptually.  There's a role for philosophy in life, but spiritual enlightenment is really not reducible to philosophy.  It's a totally different project/animal and should be taken on its own "terms."  Yes, I'm intentionally using scare quotes.  It's not that concepts or words are bad, it's just when we're talking about the subject of spiritual enlightenment, the way concepts relate to that is different from how we normally value/habitually use them in other subject areas like philosophy, science, everyday life.  Spiritual enlightenment is a totally different "inquiry."  Spiritual enlightenment is not above these other relative things like philosophy, you can have it all, once you learn how to "interpret" things without making lots of "category mistakes"/reductionisms/and so on.  One thing doesn't need to lord over another or erase another once you learn to "interpret" adequately (I say adequately rather than properly on purpose because properly implies a kind of exclusion/domination).

Edited March 19, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Loop]

@Forza21

Ego? Can you show it? Find it in direct expirence? Seriously look, look straight threw it. 

All there is, is This. Now. Notice the thoughts as they are, and feel what is so. The Knowing is not a knowing, rather it is Being. It isn't really like you need to understand something, just a dropping into what is already so, have no need for some conceptual place that you need to go, it is Here. 

 

[Mandy]

Consider the distinction between pain and resistance. Resistance is created when we have thoughts about the pain or us. When we directly feel, it just is. 

Imagine that my dog dies. I feel grief. I focus on how what I loved isn't here anymore, I'll never see her again, how our good times are done, etc. That feels bad. Imagine I love, just love, appreciate the memories, directly feel my grief, cry, whatever I feel like expressing. I look for her where she is (not apart from me, never was) I do not look where she is not (noticing she is no longer in her form.) 

When Jesus died everyone basically had a big mystical AF party. Anyone who was crying and hurting and looking for him where he wasn't (empty tomb) he was like "dude/lady, whatcha doing? I'm right here." 

[Blessed2]

https://www.actualityofbeing.com/what-is-feeling

Maybe this would bring some insight.

[Phil]

23 hours ago, Forza21 said:

Yes, but the vision of "my ego is the only thing that exist, everything other is imaginary" is impossible to disprove with my current level of consciousness. So i don't know what it's true. So i don't have relationship with truth yet, cause it don't know "what is". 😞

When all beliefs are dispelled, only Truth can remain. 🤍

“My level of consciousness” and or more simply “levels of consciousness”… is a belief. Aka, “the ego”, or, “separate self of thoughts”, or materialist paradigm. The belief is that there is a self, separate from consciousness, which “has’” consciousness, and or “has more” or “has less” consciousness than “other separate selves”, or than a “me in a past” or a “me in a future”. This is innocent divisive rhetoric, conjecture.  

Divisive:
Creating dissension or discord.
Indicating division or distribution.
Creating, or tending to create, division, separation, or difference.

Rhetoric:
Language that is impressive sounding, but not meaningful or sincere. 

Conjecture:

Opinion or judgement based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork. 

By innocent, I mean that this is something you believe because it’s something you were taught. Please don’t go beating up on ‘yourself’ for believing it, as that would just be more of the same discord / suffering. Feel for the relief of dispelling, letting a belief go. Feel for compassion in regard to the teacher of divisive rhetoric & conjecture. See in direct experience, that it is egoic thought attachment, and therein, see that there is inherently suffering / discord in believing this.

 

Check direct experience. See if any “levels of consciousness” are found in feeling. See if any “levels of consciousness” are found in perception (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting). Then notice, there is only the thought - “levels of consciousness” - and there is either the believing, or the not believing of, that thought. 

In direct experience, notice consciousness (of thoughts) does not come & go.
Notice all thoughts, including “levels of consciousness”, do come & go.
You are eternal. 
Thoughts are an appearance. 

 

My intention in mentioning this is not to ‘challenge’ your beliefs whatsoever. The intention is that you might recognize that (levels of consciousness) is only the activity of thought, a belief… and thus dispel the belief (from what you shared) which seems to be the reason…

23 hours ago, Forza21 said:

i don't have relationship with truth yet, cause it don't know "what is". 😞

 

 

”Vision of”… could be simplified to… ‘the thought of’. 

In this same way, by inspecting direct experience (checking; feeling, perception, and thought)… in regard to - “my ego is the only thing…” - it can be be noticed to be the belief in - ‘separate things’, or most simply, ‘things’.  Only then can there be the belief in / of a ‘separate thing’… ‘my ego’.

Is ‘separate things’ found in feeling?
Is ‘separate things’ found in perception?
Is ‘separate things’ found in thought / found to be, a thought? 

Is ‘my ego’ found in feeling?
Is ‘my ego’ found in perception?
Is ‘my ego’ found to be, a thought? 

Is ‘a knower’ found in feeling?  
Is ‘a knower’ found in perception?
Is ‘a knower’ found in thought / found to be, a thought? 

Is there a ‘separate self’, separate of infinite consciousness… which ‘knows’… ‘levels of consciousness’? 
Or is this perhaps, thought attachment / believing thoughts /… beliefs? 

 

[Forza21]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

When all beliefs are dispelled, only Truth can remain. 🤍

“My level of consciousness” and or more simply “levels of consciousness”… is a belief. Aka, “the ego”, or, “separate self of thoughts”, or materialist paradigm. The belief is that there is a self, separate from consciousness, which “has’” consciousness, and or “has more” or “has less” consciousness than “other separate selves”, or than a “me in a past” or a “me in a future”. This is innocent divisive rhetoric, conjecture.  

Divisive:
Creating dissension or discord.
Indicating division or distribution.
Creating, or tending to create, division, separation, or difference.

Rhetoric:
Language that is impressive sounding, but not meaningful or sincere. 

Conjecture:

Opinion or judgement based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork. 

By innocent, I mean that this is something you believe because it’s something you were taught. Please don’t go beating up on ‘yourself’ for believing it, as that would just be more of the same discord / suffering. Feel for the relief of dispelling, letting a belief go. Feel for compassion in regard to the teacher of divisive rhetoric & conjecture. See in direct experience, that it is egoic thought attachment, and therein, see that there is inherently suffering / discord in believing this.

 

Check direct experience. See if any “levels of consciousness” are found in feeling. See if any “levels of consciousness” are found in perception (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting). Then notice, there is only the thought - “levels of consciousness” - and there is either the believing, or the not believing of, that thought. 

In direct experience, notice consciousness (of thoughts) does not come & go.
Notice all thoughts, including “levels of consciousness”, do come & go.
You are eternal. 
Thoughts are an appearance. 

 

My intention in mentioning this is not to ‘challenge’ your beliefs whatsoever. The intention is that you might recognize that (levels of consciousness) is only the activity of thought, a belief… and thus dispel the belief (from what you shared) which seems to be the reason…

 

 

”Vision of”… could be simplified to… ‘the thought of’. 

In this same way, by inspecting direct experience (checking; feeling, perception, and thought)… in regard to - “my ego is the only thing…” - it can be be noticed to be the belief in - ‘separate things’, or most simply, ‘things’.  Only then can there be the belief in / of a ‘separate thing’… ‘my ego’.

Is ‘separate things’ found in feeling?
Is ‘separate things’ found in perception?
Is ‘separate things’ found in thought / found to be, a thought? 

Is ‘my ego’ found in feeling?
Is ‘my ego’ found in perception?
Is ‘my ego’ found to be, a thought? 

Is ‘a knower’ found in feeling?  
Is ‘a knower’ found in perception?
Is ‘a knower’ found in thought / found to be, a thought? 

Is there a ‘separate self’, separate of infinite consciousness… which ‘knows’… ‘levels of consciousness’? 
Or is this perhaps, thought attachment / believing thoughts /… beliefs? 

 

1) My level of consciousness” - is a thought, - yes i see it, there's no such thing to be found in direct experience. There is only thoughts' appearance. It comes from nothing, and goes back to nothing. There's no "me" also,  only thought of "me". There's only awareness.

2)yes you are right. I can see how much anger and attachment there was. You are right, part of letting go is to accept/ love/ have compassion ❤️

3)
 

Is ‘separate things’ found in feeling?   - No.
Is ‘separate things’ found in perception? No - it's all one picture, one "visual field" . 
Is ‘separate things’ found in thought / found to be, a thought?  - here i'm not sure, There's just one thought at the time. But there are many thoughts about "separation" which isn't found in direct experience otherwise.

Is ‘my ego’ found in feeling?  - No
Is ‘my ego’ found in perception? - No
Is ‘my ego’ found to be, a thought?  - Yes, this is just a thought "my ego" . 

Is ‘a knower’ found in feeling?  -No
Is ‘a knower’ found in perception? - No
Is ‘a knower’ found in thought / found to be, a thought?  - yes

Is there a ‘separate self’, separate of infinite consciousness… which ‘knows’… ‘levels of consciousness’?  - no
Or is this perhaps, thought attachment / believing thoughts /… beliefs?  - yes, it's a thought


❤️

[Faith]

16 hours ago, Forza21 said:

There's only awareness.

This is how I see it, there's only awareness (unmanifest/apparently manifest). This can be directly realized through self-inquiry...and I am "that".

I also haven't agreed with "levels of consciousness". I just don't see that being the case. I've thought Leo just says that so he can keep making videos claiming one is better/"on a higher level" then the last, because of this supposed "levels of consciousness ".  

In my direct experience am I God? Well, I'm not omnipresent, omnipotent or omniscience...except, in belief. So, if there's a god then, because I'm awareness I would also have to be God, however that is not directly known...to me. So, I won't go around saying it. 

Just my 2 cents.

[Forza21]

6 hours ago, Faith said:

This is how I see it, there's only awareness (unmanifest/apparently manifest). This can be directly realized through self-inquiry. 

I also haven't agreed with "levels of consciousness". I just don't see that being the case. I've thought Leo just says that so he can keep making videos claiming one is better/"on a higher level" then the last, because of this supposed "levels of consciousness ".  

In my direct experience am I God? Well, I'm not omnipresent, omnipotent or omniscience...except, in belief. So, if there's a god then, because I'm awareness I would also have to be God, however that is not directly known...to me. So, I won't go around saying it. 

Just my 2 cents.

Exactly. 
And that's big part of my suffering.

There were many thoughts like:
"I'm God"
"i've seen through illusion"
"I'm alone as God"
"It's all MY imagination" and so on...

And that's NOT the truth JUST THOUGHTS! and it made me suffer, because my "ego" (just using it as a word) claimed itself to be GOD... and it's unbelievable pain that way, because one's got disconnected from the source...  I cried a lot, i've started to notice feelings, and... i've noticed LOVE. It is a CURE for that.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Forza21

[Zeroguy]

1 hour ago, Forza21 said:

Exactly. 
And that's big part of my suffering.

There were many thoughts like:
"I'm God"
"i've seen through illusion"
"I'm alone as God"
"It's all MY imagination" and so on...

And that's NOT the truth JUST THOUGHTS! and it made me suffer, because my "ego" (just using it as a word) claimed itself to be GOD... and it's unbelievable pain that way, because one's got disconnected from the source...  I cried a lot, i've started to notice feelings, and... i've noticed LOVE. It is a CURE for that.

Forever alone=forever together

Here we all are.Togetherness

[Zeroguy]

Truth is Infinite Love.You are the Truth.Most amazing possible Truth,God.

[Joseph Maynor]

If I reframe this as "Is spiritual enlightenment painful," then my answer in my experience would be no.  It's exactly the opposite.  There might be some painful aspects to maturing, but that's always been part of your life.  It was actually quite pleasurable for me to broaden my horizons and has actually reduced a lot of pain that came before from a more narrow channel of looking at things and being in the world. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Zeroguy]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

If I reframe this as "Is spiritual enlightenment painful," then my answer in my experience would be no.  It's exactly the opposite.  There might be some painful aspects to maturing, but that's always been part of your life.  It was actually quite pleasurable for me to broaden my horizons and has actually reduced a lot of pain that came from a more narrow channel of looking at things and being in the world.

Psychological maturity +spiritual enlightenment=jackpot

[Joseph Maynor]

39 minutes ago, Zeroguy said:

Psychological maturity +spiritual enlightenment=jackpot

I'll add one more to your jackpot idea: Being able to "stay human" and become more human despite your "growth" = jackpot.  

Edited March 20, 2022 by Joseph Maynor

[Visions]

 

On 3/19/2022 at 5:27 AM, Forza21 said:

Can truth be painful? 

The big struggle i have, is when I suffer, and I see "God-Realization" through the lens of ego, which claims itself to be God. So it's basically pure solipsism trap, and madness, because ego claims itself to be the only real thing, and everything else is imaginary. All the world, doesn't exist, but this ego-mind of Forza. It's Sick.

When there's suffering, there are also thoughts like " what if it's how reality really is, and it's all pure suffering and hell? Maybe when i think otherwise, I avoid the truth? Perhaps "I' (the ego) created all this? Maybe when "I" die, i'll see all the people were imagined by me, (my ego) ?

BUT if this was true, and there was no other way to create reality, me, as Forza-God (haha), would never, ever, would want to awake. Like never. Because it would be awaking to pure hell.  I would design such reality, without even a single trace of possibility of awaking. 

So if God leaves all the possibility to one's awaking, through spirituality, meditation, psychedelics, all the spiritual gurus, religions, and much more, it means it wants the best for itself. It serves some purpose.

Therefore, the TRUTH must be blissful, must be love, must be happiness.
As God, i would want all the best for myself, right?

So, the implication of all this is: IF YOU SUFFER, IT'S NOT THE TRUTH. You are missing something. 

My bet is, what you miss, it "no self" realization. Ego claims God's throne. Because God is truly selfless, so there's no one to be lonely after realization. God is also love, so there's only that. 

is it correct way of reasoning?   Can truth be something other than blissful experience? is reality really perfect? and why? OR MAYBE, Could it be designed other than the way it is? 

 

My father has cancer. We've been told that he only has a few months to live. 

When we see our parents through our eyes growing up it can be so difficult to let them go in adulthood. 

My father did everything for me, my mother died of a drug overdose when I was only 13. I'm in my late 20's now.

When we speak to each other over the phone now because he's in a different city, knowing he's only got a few months to live underneath... I'm lost for words. So I feel the spaces with as much calmness and story that I can, just to push the words out. Listen to whatever he wants to talk about. Love him as much as I can.

So it's difficult to accept all of this, it is painful. 

I see what you mean though.

Truth and love to you! 😄 

[Nowt]

@Visions ❤️

[Visions]

22 minutes ago, Nowt said:

@Visions ❤️

 

24 minutes ago, Serenity said:

@Visions

Sorry to read this.

Lots of Love to you.

 

So heart warming you two, thank you ❤️. My family and I are struggling to come to peace with it but we are doing a prayer each night to both hope for the best and prepare for the worst. My father is a great man, very humble and simple. He never asks of much, always gave a lot so its great to be for him as much as possible now. I will be taking a flight with my son and daughter to his city to be with him in the hospital in the next couple of days. We'll stay in a hotel, they can visit him as much as they want and we'll try organise the best possible arrangement for him. I'm crying right now as I type this... It's a big release. I have to be strong for my family.