Surrogacy

[Mandy]

It's becoming more and more common for women to be paid to carry babies for more wealthy couples. Is it freedom to allow this to become a business model if it means that a woman can sign away all her bodily autonomy to those with the means to pay for it? 

 

If we were more sensitive to thought and emotion rather than believing in only material existences, would we say that it is truly only genetics that actually determines the parents of a child? 

[Rose]

2 hours ago, Mandy said:

Is it freedom to allow this to become a business model if it means that a woman can sign away all her bodily autonomy to those with the means to pay for it? 

I work in the office, but my bodily autonomy has also been signed away to my corporation. I look at my friends, who have gained 10-20 kg because they stress so much because of work and try to soothe that madness with food, and it’s the same thing.. 

 

At least as a surrogate you bring something meaningful to this world, and the parents will be grateful forever (especially if they couldn’t have their own kids). In an office you’re just nobody.

[Reena]

Surrogacy is a great option and is being increasingly used in my country. It's delusional to be negative about it. It's a great option for a lot of women out there. 

[Mandy]

8 hours ago, Rose said:

I work in the office, but my bodily autonomy has also been signed away to my corporation. I look at my friends, who have gained 10-20 kg because they stress so much because of work and try to soothe that madness with food, and it’s the same thing.. 

 

At least as a surrogate you bring something meaningful to this world, and the parents will be grateful forever (especially if they couldn’t have their own kids). In an office you’re just nobody.

Stress and overeating isn't a mandatory part of your job. 

 

What do you mean that in an office you are nobody? People apparently have many differing opinions on bringing more kids into the world, some believe it adds more meaning, others say it diminishes the health of the planet and is selfish and evil. Is meaning not something that is created? How do you know that your job isn't meaningful, and if you do, what is? 

 

8 hours ago, Reena said:

Surrogacy is a great option and is being increasingly used in my country. It's delusional to be negative about it. It's a great option for a lot of women out there. 

Surrogacy brings up many legal challenges when things don't go as planned. There are many decisions that come up during a pregnancy that the surrogate gets no say in, potentially being forced to undergo surgeries, if there are health concerns that arise with the fetus, she may be faced with being forced to to abort the baby she is carrying. 

[Rose]

3 hours ago, Mandy said:

Stress and overeating isn't a mandatory part of your job. 

 

It’s very hard not to have stress though. At least in my profession, it’s highly demanding and a lot of responsibility. 
 

3 hours ago, Mandy said:

What do you mean that in an office you are nobody?

That you don’t really feel you are contributing to the world. No one will ever remember you.

 

3 hours ago, Mandy said:

People apparently have many differing opinions on bringing more kids into the world, some believe it adds more meaning, others say it diminishes the health of the planet and is selfish and evil. Is meaning not something that is created?

The first world countries with educated people have declining rates of birth, at critical levels. The replacement rate is 2.1 births per woman.  The poor countries with low education and high crime rates are the ones responsible for current world overpopulation.

 

A family that can afford surrogacy probably won’t have their baby starve, do drugs, and become a criminal. They are much more likely to make a strong contribution to our planet than some child #7 from father #5 in a third world country where a mother can’t even feed them, but yet keeps reproducing.

Edited August 1 by Rose

[Mandy]

7 minutes ago, Rose said:

It’s very hard not to have stress though. At least in my profession, it’s highly demanding and a lot of responsibility. 

Does having stress make you better at your job? 

8 minutes ago, Rose said:

That you don’t really feel you are contributing to the world. No one will ever remember you.

How will you know if you're remembered or not after you die? What if someone rewrites the story on you entirely and removes your statue from the garden because the values of the society change and you're no longer the hero? 

 

11 minutes ago, Rose said:

The first world countries with educated people have declining rates of birth, at critical levels. The replacement rate is 2.1 births per woman.  The poor countries with low education and high crime rates are the ones responsible for current world overpopulation.

 

A family that can afford surrogacy probably won’t have their baby starve, do drugs, and become a criminal. They are much more likely to make a strong contribution to our planet than some child #7 from father #5 in a third world country where a mother can’t even feed them, but yet keeps reproducing.

Why not use those resources to provide education and health resources for existing children? Or to adopt existing children without parents? 

 

What does a strong contribution to our planet look like? What are some examples that you admire? 

[Jonas Long]

As far as suggocacy, adoption seems a better option at the moment, I think.  

[Rose]

12 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Does having stress make you better at your job? 

It probably helps me to set limits - otherwise I would be exploited even more by my company. Stress is an indicator that something is not working. 

 

14 minutes ago, Mandy said:

How will you know if you're remembered or not after you die? What if someone rewrites the story on you entirely and removes your statue from the garden because the values of the society change and you're no longer the hero? 

It’s not really after I die. When you switch companies, no one stays in touch with you.. and neither do you.. it’s relationships that you build that are no longer useful.. short term.. no one remembers and appreciates your contribution 

 

15 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Why not use those resources to provide education and health resources for existing children? Or to adopt existing children without parents? 

 

As for adoption, there is also a genetic component to it. Plus many of those kids are troubled, not everyone has the mental capacity and resources to deal with that. Investing 50K in surrogacy and investing that money in some random school you have no connection with doesn’t feel the same. Having a baby is a lifetime project. Plus some people really struggle to save so much money, but they do it because they really want the experience of having a child

28 minutes ago, Mandy said:

What does a strong contribution to our planet look like? What are some examples that you admire? 

Anything that is not murder, drugs, crime..

 

I admire a lot of things, when a person has a lot of passion for something without harming others 

[Mandy]

22 minutes ago, Rose said:

It probably helps me to set limits - otherwise I would be exploited even more by my company. Stress is an indicator that something is not working.

So stress doesn't make you less likely to make mistakes then? 

 

22 minutes ago, Rose said:

It’s not really after I die. When you switch companies, no one stays in touch with you.. and neither do you.. it’s relationships that you build that are no longer useful.. short term.. no one remembers and appreciates your contribution

Sounds like relationships is what you want, and it's not up to the company to hand them to you, you build them and stay in touch whether in or out of the company. 

24 minutes ago, Rose said:

I admire a lot of things, when a person has a lot of passion for something without harming others 

Is passion a thing or an emotion that everyone has access to? 

[Reena]

1 hour ago, Jonas Long said:

As far as suggocacy, adoption seems a better option at the moment, I think.  

You can't really tell a couple what's a better option. 

 

[Jonas Long]

1 minute ago, Reena said:

You can't really tell a couple what's a better option. 

 

Just saying what I think and how it seems to me, like I clarified originally.  There's already kids who need homes, imho it seems better to give them homes first than capitalizing another's reproductive system.  Just my thought. 

[Rose]

5 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

Just saying what I think and how it seems to me, like I clarified originally.  There's already kids who need homes, imho it seems better to give them homes first than capitalizing another's reproductive system.  Just my thought. 

Most people don’t think like you. To think globally like that and to feel love to all the people and children around you that you feel towards your family requires a very very very high level of development. Less than 1% of people are at that stage.

[Mandy]

22 minutes ago, Rose said:

Most people don’t think like you. To think globally like that and to feel love to all the people and children around you that you feel towards your family requires a very very very high level of development. Less than 1% of people are at that stage.

Almost anyone I know will instantly going into mommy mode for any kid when needed. You instantly pick the kid out of the pool or the bounce house as soon as there's an issue and you're the one that's there. It's not even thought about, it's just instinct. 

[Rose]

32 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Almost anyone I know will instantly going into mommy mode for any kid when needed. You instantly pick the kid out of the pool or the bounce house as soon as there's an issue and you're the one that's there. It's not even thought about, it's just instinct. 

It’s different than adopting a kid forever. Of course most people will chose to save another person from dying, but it’s not the same as living them as if their family. 

 

Why don’t you adopt? I believe you have a husband and are a full family.

Edited August 1 by Rose

[Blessed2]

17 hours ago, Mandy said:

it is truly only genetics that actually determines the parents of a child? 

 

I wonder how this is seen in those hunter-gatherer societies where children are raised communally. So that all kids are basically everyone's kids.

 

I wonder if they even pay much attention to the notion of who gave birth to whom. Do they have the notion, "my child"?

 

[Mandy]

@Rose I had my kids fairly young, and would not have had the money to adopt or even have had my half renovated house approved for fostering at the time I had my first kid at 24. 

[Reena]

1 hour ago, Jonas Long said:

Just saying what I think and how it seems to me, like I clarified originally.  There's already kids who need homes, imho it seems better to give them homes first than capitalizing another's reproductive system.  Just my thought. 

Moralistic idealism. 

[Jonas Long]

24 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

Why don’t you adopt? I believe you have a husband and are a full family.

I was only making the point re adoption vs surrogacy, not adoption vs having your own biological children.  If you can't for whatever reason have your own, adoption seems a better idea to me than surrogacy. 

[Cooper Swam]

Im all for surrogacy. It’s illegal in my country though. Just being a rich woman who doesn’t want the hassle of giving birth, that’s not cool. Shouldn’t be allowed. They would make shitty parents. 

 

I donated sperm to two friends years ago, one of them is trans, female to male and the other is female and carried the baby. You create a family anyway you can and thankfully we live in times where it’s accepted and possible. 

[Cooper Swam]

17 hours ago, Jonas Long said:

I was only making the point re adoption vs surrogacy, not adoption vs having your own biological children.  If you can't for whatever reason have your own, adoption seems a better idea to me than surrogacy. 

It’s really hard to adopt, there aren’t that many kids available and they are super strict on who can. Fostering is easier. My brother and his wife adopted a child from Korea and even that was difficult. They were willing to adopt a child with a mild disability so ended up adopting their son. The mild disability was his mother drank alcohol when she was pregnant and was unmarried. No Koreans wanted a child like that. 😳😳

 

My mother was adopted, my cousin was adopted, my uncle was too and my nephew. Besides the Korean nephew, we all look related. Adoption works, it is a good choice.