Morality

[Mandy]

What does morality presuppose? What does the word moral apply to? What has morals? Do characters have morals? Does a story have a moral(s)? Do stories have characters? Do characters have stories? Is there a story without a character, or a character without a story? 

 

Are spirituality and morality related? 

 

Why does controversy and the attempt to exclude or rid ourselves of something only seem to make it grow, why is it said that "there is no such thing as bad publicity"?  

 

Is questioning morality wrong? Is the recognition that there is no duality, no good or bad, bad? 

[Reena]

Morality is the biggest bullshit mankind invented in my firm opinion. It is used to torment and bully people. Punishing people only makes things worse. End of pain begins with end of morality. Nobody is a thief and nothing is stolen. Morality is the biggest trap and the biggest deception there is. Morality is the opposite of pleasantness. No wonder religion and God are at odds with one another. 

 

 

[Mandy]

41 minutes ago, Reena said:

 Morality is the opposite of pleasantness. No wonder religion and God are at odds with one another. 

 

 

Morality is all about opposites, what if there aren't actually any opposites? What if morality isn't good or bad, but making morality bad is just more morality? 

[Reena]

19 minutes ago, Mandy said:

What if morality isn't good or bad, but making morality bad is just more morality? 

If something is toxic, it's bad. Morality is used to please the ego. Asking for no morality cannot be more morality. 

 

[Mandy]

5 minutes ago, Reena said:

If something is toxic, it's bad. Morality is used to please the ego. Asking for no morality cannot be more morality. 

 

mo·ral·i·ty

noun

principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

 

Saying something is toxic or even cringe is an example of morality. 

 

If you research the Salem Witch trials, only the true believers that were accused, those that were more afraid of God than their local authorities, were hanged or killed for being witches. Those that admitted to witchcraft, or lied to appease the delusion and fears going on were spared. 

[Blessed2]

8 hours ago, Mandy said:

What does morality presuppose?

 

For me it seems that there is at least three facets to what makes up "morality".

 

1. Finite separate things or parts that would be good or bad

 

2. A knower who would know good and bad

 

3. Doer, chooser, a someone who would be responsible, who would freely choose between a good or bad thing.

 

 

[Phil]

Morality seems so conditional. 

[Joseph Maynor]

13 hours ago, Mandy said:

Why is it said that "there is no such thing as bad publicity"?  

This only works if you’re already kind of a bad person or a self-righteous person and you make your money off being famous usually by stirring the pot or criticizing others.  I can think of a few people/celebrities right off the bat who fit this. 

I don’t dismiss morality but I know where it emerges and where it collapses.  Saying there’s no morality is too much in the Absolute (the Divine).  Complaining or proselytizing too much about morality (or immorality) is too much in the relative (the human).  Morality is real but only in the relative world.  If we break the whole into parts we can look at conduct or thoughts of A as immoral with respect to B.  This is why it’s useful to be able to separate the Self (Absolute) from the self (Relative).  In the Relative World, the human world, morality factors in.  But the Self knows no morality/immorality as the Divine.  So unless you want your Dream to be a nightmare (imagine being incarcerated in a punitive jail or prison), you’re better off Witnessing a loving, moral Dream.  There’s certainly going to be a lot less pain in the loving and moral Dream.  

However, we don’t want to get stuck in the Dream without Knowing the Absolute because that leads to a life of Samsara, or suffering the duality of pleasure and pain without any Existential relief or Transcendence from that interplay of opposites (duality).  Also, people who think they’re being moral and loving, like people who become too explicitly evangelical and pushy usually about some form of spirituality can actually cause pain and suffering while thinking they’re being morally good and loving.  Not everyone is the same and needs the same treatment usually, although there are exceptions.  People are at different spiral stages (or however you want to characterize human development) on the path/Path. 

 

But we can think of things that are good and helpful to others that we would classify as morally good and loving, so we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater regarding morality.  The reason there's no morality in the Absolute is because there's no doer and no free will.  You need free will and a doer for morality to even make sense.

Edited June 26 by Joseph Maynor

[Jane]

6 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

This only works if you’re already kind of a bad person or a self-righteous person and you make your money off being famous usually by stirring the pot or criticizing others.  I can think of a few people/celebrities right off the bat who fit this. 

I don’t dismiss morality but I know where it emerges and where it collapses.  Saying there’s no morality is too much in the Absolute (the Divine).  Complaining or proselytizing too much about morality (or immorality) is too much in the relative (the human).  Morality is real but only in the relative world.  If we break the whole into parts we can look at conduct or thoughts of A as immoral with respect to B.  This is why it’s useful to be able to separate the Self (Absolute) from the self (Relative).  In the Relative World, the human world, morality factors in.  But the Self knows no morality/immorality as the Divine.  So unless you want your Dream to be a nightmare (imagine being incarcerated in a punitive jail or prison), you’re better off Witnessing a loving, moral Dream.  There’s certainly going to be a lot less pain in the loving and moral Dream.  

However, we don’t want to get stuck in the Dream without Knowing the Absolute because that leads to a life of Samsara, or suffering the duality of pleasure and pain without any Existential relief or Transcendence from that interplay of opposites (duality).  Also, people who think they’re being moral and loving, like people who become too explicitly evangelical and pushy usually about some form of spirituality can actually cause pain and suffering while thinking they’re being morally good and loving.  Not everyone is the same and needs the same treatment usually, although there are exceptions.  People are at different spiral stages (or however you want to characterize human development) on the path/Path. 

 

But we can think of things that are good and helpful to others that we would classify as morally good and loving, so we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater regarding morality.  The reason there's no morality in the Absolute is because there's no doer and no free will.  You need free will and a doer for morality to even make sense.

Excellent, well said!!

That all makes perfect rational sense within the parameters of human language/ knowledge,  in this conception. 👍💯

[Jane]

8 hours ago, Phil said:

Morality seems so conditional. 

It’s all part of the trickery the unconditional plays upon its conditionals. 😉

 

It’s the unconditional showing up to try get a glimpse of what condition it’s unconditions are in. 🤣

[Jane]

17 hours ago, Reena said:

Morality is used to please the ego. 

 

Yes it is. I agree.
 

The ego objects to it’s personal life being threatened or harmed by the intent of another ego, so it will concoct for itself a rational ethic in the form of what it believes is acceptable and not acceptable, for itself only, maybe 🤔 ?

[Jane]

17 hours ago, Mandy said:

Morality is all about opposites, what if there aren't actually any opposites? What if morality isn't good or bad, but making morality bad is just more morality? 

Where there is a sense of self identity. There will always be opposition. I am moral, or I am immoral.

 

Even though there is no one here who is sensing the sense of having a separate self identity, because the sense of self identity is apparent only, but nonetheless is an illusion that is powerful enough to be able to trick and pull off the sense of self identity.
 

The very concept ( “ it’s-self” ) implies two. Which is nothing other than  an illusion creating another illusion in the image of itself. ( “it’s-self”)

[Jane]

10 hours ago, Blessed2 said:

 

For me it seems that there is at least three facets to what makes up "morality".

 

1. Finite separate things or parts that would be good or bad

 

2. A knower who would know good and bad

 

3. Doer, chooser, a someone who would be responsible, who would freely choose between a good or bad thing.

 

 

Yes,  and part of that responsibility would be holding to a faith and trust that everything will work out, but at the same time do what we can to ensure a favourable outcome.

[Jane]

20 hours ago, Reena said:

Morality is the biggest bullshit mankind invented in my firm opinion. It is used to torment and bully people. Punishing people only makes things worse. End of pain begins with end of morality. Nobody is a thief and nothing is stolen. Morality is the biggest trap and the biggest deception there is. Morality is the opposite of pleasantness. No wonder religion and God are at odds with one another. 

 

 

May I ask... if mankind invented morality as a BS idea, which it probably did, otherwise, morality would have come from somewhere else, but I fail to see where that somewhere else would be or what that somewhere else place, would even look like.

 

But then, what about the idea of God or of Nature, does God or Nature have a moral conscience? Or, what about the idea of Consciousness, does that have an actual conscience?

Where do you think our egoic bs morals come from, actually....do they come from Consciousness, or God or Nature, or just Human imagination, or even from somewhere else, or absolutely nowhere at all?

 

 

 

 

[Blessed2]

14 hours ago, Blessed2 said:

 

For me it seems that there is at least three facets to what makes up "morality".

 

1. Finite separate things or parts that would be good or bad

 

2. A knower who would know good and bad

 

3. Doer, chooser, a someone who would be responsible, who would freely choose between a good or bad thing.

 

 

If these three things would exist, morality would make perfect sense, it would be pretty just a fact of life or whatever.

 

Though if any or all of the three is not actually the case, then morality is equally not the case.

 

[Reena]

21 hours ago, Mandy said:

Saying something is toxic or even cringe is an example of morality. 

If something is toxic to your body that's not morality though. There's a difference. Morality is a bad of principles which people profit from for their ego. 

[Mandy]

28 minutes ago, Reena said:

If something is toxic to your body that's not morality though. There's a difference. 

Yes, I just mean in the context that you're not meaning that something is poison or literally toxic. There's a fairly recently evolved use of toxic, as a word that has to do with morality, and as a judgement of people, behavior, ideas or beliefs. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/14/arts/toxic-oxford-word-of-the-year-2018.html

 

31 minutes ago, Reena said:

Morality is a bad of principles which people profit from for their ego. 

Morality is of people, behavior, beliefs and good and bad though. You can't even escape by condemning morality itself, the boomerang of what's rejected will always come back around. It's a hopeless pursuit to be above anything at all. 

 

[Reena]

21 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Yes, I just mean in the context that you're not meaning that something is poison or literally toxic. There's a fairly recently evolved use of toxic, as a word that has to do with morality, and as a judgement of people, behavior, ideas or beliefs. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/14/arts/toxic-oxford-word-of-the-year-2018.html

Yes I meant the same thing. Some people are toxic. But this is not to judge them. It's because they're toxic to the body. They can be abusive. Morally and emotionally. Morality is only good if it's not used for useless assumptions, projections and judgement. Basic morality is needed for survival. Yet morality used as judgement especially all the psychoanalysis of people's character online is used by egomaniacal people to their benefit. It's moral narcissism. Stuff that we often encounter in spiritual communities a bit too much. Otherwise basic morality of "thou shall not kill" is kinda okay. 

 

[Mandy]

@Reena To call some people toxic is to put oneself in a vulnerable position, which is what attracts the very behavior sought to be excluded from one's experience. 

 

Why do you think spirituality is often confused with morality? 

[Phil]

@Jane

Wouldn't trickery be another apparent condition, not indicative of unconditional?