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Illusion of Degrees/Levels


Indisguise
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At first one thinks that enlightenment is a binary thing. Either your awake or not. Then one gets more sophisticated and starts thinking of enlightenment in terms of "degrees" and "levels", and that one can "deepen" ones awakening and become more and more enlightened.

 

On a conceptual level, I understand that "more" and "less" are not real. 

 

But I still feel that for example on some days, there is more clarity into a certain insight like no-self. And it feels like there's "less" ego. 

 

How to get rid of "degrees" once and for all? Now obviously, when I look for "degrees" of consciousness during my meditation practice for example, I can't find any. But it still sometimes seems like there's more or less clarity/consciousness/etc. 

Help? 

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@Indisguise Ah I see. 

 

Whats really going on is that youre clinging to sensation still, Love manifests as all sensations so you can never really be lost or have lowered consciousness. 

 

What happens is that a pleasurable or good feeling sensation is held onto by the separate self-activity, then it associates pleasurable sensation with "Higher Consciousness". No sensation is better/worse than another. 

 

See sensation as just sensation, nothing special about them, when thats seen, then every sensation is special/not-special!

Edited by Orb

🌞🌚

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@Indisguise

8 minutes ago, Indisguise said:

@Orb  But I don't necessarily think that pleasurable sensations are "higher consciousness" - although I think that "higher consciousness" is more pleasant, is that what you mean? 

 

Haha you pretty much said the same thing in two different ways. 

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I don't really look at things in terms of more or less conscious, it is more like oh there was a looping thought going on, or a tension knot going on and then it got released and now things are going more seamlessly, flowing with What Is. 

 

Ain't nobody to be more or less awake. Notice when you judge something as more or less concious, notice it is thought. 

🤍🧠👀

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7 minutes ago, Orb said:

@Indisguise

 

Haha you pretty much said the same thing in two different ways. 

What I meant is this: when I lay in the bathtub, it's pleasant, but not higher consciousness. 

But when I for example take mushrooms or meditate, I feel like I become more aware, or develop more clarity. And that there are degrees. And that's pleasant. But not the same thing as with enjoying a hot bath. 

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2 minutes ago, Ges said:

Degrees and levels are real. It's a mistake to try to get rid of them. Spiritual bypassing, I believe it is called.

They're not though. They're conceptual, not actual. 

"Higher" is a relational word of description, higher is only in relation to lower - which itself is only defined in terms of the "higher". 

 

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31 minutes ago, Indisguise said:

What I meant is this: when I lay in the bathtub, it's pleasant, but not higher consciousness. 

But when I for example take mushrooms or meditate, I feel like I become more aware, or develop more clarity. And that there are degrees. And that's pleasant. But not the same thing as with enjoying a hot bath. 

@Indisguise not in anyway intending to make fun of you or anything like that, but youre "splitting" right now, creating more unnecessary distinctions. This is exactly what is happening RIGHT NOW that is causing the off-ness felt.

 

A hot bath is a nice pleasurable experience, a mushroom trip is a nice pleasurable experience, thats all they are, the thoughts about them are just thoughts about them. And while the thoughts can be enjoyed or ignored they are just thoughts. 

🌞🌚

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What’s a ‘conceptual level’?

What’s an example of a ‘nonconceptual level’?

 

If “more” and “less” are not real… what then is ‘held’ to be, real?

 

Where or when or what actually, is / are… ‘some days’?

 

Examine thoughts, perception and sensation… and ‘fish out’ with absolute unquestionable certainty, what of direct experience is, not now. 

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From the arbitrarily decided upon judgement of what is up and down as related to our planet, I am "above" Australia. I am "above" Florida. If I get on a ladder and climb on the roof I'm above my whole family. If I fall off it, I'm below them. See how physically/geometrically, above and below requires the comparison or relationship between two separate points? So for one to identify as any such point, they have to simultaneously disidentify from the other.  So if I Am the entire pie there is no question of which piece is larger than the other, there are no pieces. If I want to have a piece be larger than another, I have to first cut, and therefore separate, diminish, lessen the entire pie. You are what is prior to the judgement above or below. (You are even prior to the judgement/knowledge whole or separate. ) When (Awareness is) prior to the thought/judgement/separation, we feel wholeness, peace, love, etc. When we are caught in the separation, thinking/feeling pride over or thinking/feeling less than we feel less than stellar. The feeling/awareness itself is the prior to, and when you surrender the idea it just IS. 

 

The mistake is in thinking that the source of this good feeling is found in the higher state or level. The SOURCE is you, prior to thoughts of levels. If we think the source is found in the obtaining of the highest state, we are willing to suffer our way to the top. But what is source has no source, so the source of good feeling is... feeling itself. Now. 

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1 hour ago, Indisguise said:

They're not though. They're conceptual, not actual. 

"Higher" is a relational word of description, higher is only in relation to lower - which itself is only defined in terms of the "higher".

 

So what? There is utility beyond what's "actual". For example, it's a lot better to go to a doctor with high knowledge and skill instead of going blindly to some random doc, let alone not seeing any doctor at all.

Edited by Ges

Have faith.

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Spiritual levels are Great ! /s

 

They provide carrots and competition. Of course the teacher has mastered all levels. 

 

Spiritual levels are concepts. They put the Absolute into a neat box that consumers can understand.  They add fuel for delusion. I think I'm a level 3 on Culadasa's map of enlightenment, but sometimes I'm level 4. Good days I've had level 5. Maybe I'm being too hard on myself and I'm really a level 5. 

 

Do other people outside of the System (Copyright) have the same meditation or spiritual experience as those within the system? Hardly ever. 


Is the Culadasa System and Map True? Sadhguru's? Ken Wilbur's? Raniere's NXIVM model? Is Scientology's? Is Leo pointing us all towards levels of consciousness and understanding we've never even dreamed of, like he says? 

 

5 hours ago, Indisguise said:

 

 

But I still feel that for example on some days, there is more clarity into a certain insight like no-self. And it feels like there's "less" ego. 

 

How to get rid of "degrees" once and for all? Now obviously, when I look for "degrees" of consciousness during my meditation practice for example, I can't find any. But it still sometimes seems like there's more or less clarity/consciousness/etc. 

Help? 

 

Sure. My POV is that there's a selfing going on. Some days a large self (if there's anger or jealousy), somedays a smaller self (compassion and altruism). It's an illusion and somedays the illusion or mirage may be more apparent than other days. That's fine. It is what it is. Consciousness is the movie screen upon which everything plays. The play will change. Feelings, thoughts, insights, wisdom, clarity -- unveil upon the movie screen. Sometimes more wisdom dealing with a car problem, sometimes less wisdom inviting a stripper to live at my house. 

 

If my dog dies, unlike what Leo thinks that I should be perfectly okay with it (this is spiritual bypassing and disassociation) -- instead I'm sad and grieve for the loss. 

 

 

“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.” ― The Buddha

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I never studied Zen or Buddhism, but I do agree with the 10 Ox herding pictures for the most part. Some would call it stages of realization I guess, but consciousness is the same. I do not have the opinion of "levels" of consciousness/awareness.

 

The link has the 10 pics, the regular text with it, but also has explanations of what it means. 

 

https://tricycle.org/magazine/ten-oxherding-pictures/

 

 

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6 hours ago, Aware Wolf said:

Sometimes more wisdom dealing with a car problem, sometimes less wisdom inviting a stripper to live at my house. 

 

 

 

 

I've taken the bodhisattva vow -- so it was the compassionate thing to do. My live-in gf was upset though -- but she isn't a bodhisattva.

“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.” ― The Buddha

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Just had a nice analogy that came to mind on this topic.

 

A flower blossoms naturally and goes through all phases of its life, the flower is Love. 

 

Imagine if the flower could think and got caught up in stories about its stages of blossoming and sadly missed the ACTUAL blossoming. 

 

That's pretty much it in a nutshell 👍.

🌞🌚

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On 4/16/2022 at 12:23 PM, Ges said:

So what?

Suffering. 

 

@Orb

Flow-ers. 🙂

 

@Indisguise

Truth is apparently binary as thought(s), as in, there either is or there is not a separate self. Thoughts can appear that I am the separate self, the one who is awake / more awake / most awake. But wakefulness doesn’t even know what “thoughts” are. Wakefulness doesn’t even know what suffering is. 

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