What is wrong?

[Phil]

@Loop

Folk religious?

[Loop]

@Phil

 

Not sure I follow.

[Phil]

@Loop

Where/ are, your parents religious?

[Loop]

@Phil

 

My mom was probably influenced by Christianity she used to have to go to Sunday school. Has talked about how dealing with nuns was scary for her. Really doesn’t like Christianity, her father talks about missing the community of the church he used to go to sometimes. 
 

I wasn’t really told much of what to believe religiously growing up, my dad tells me he believes in evolution, and my mom believes something to do with souls, not really sure she doesn’t talk much when I bring spiritual type of things up. 

[Phil]

@Loop

That might have something to do with it. They might not be worrying as much as experiencing an underlying shame from the ‘right and wrong’ & righteousness of religious upbringing. Not to say everyone does, but the ‘there’s always a problem’ & ‘something about the souls’ and that she doesn’t care to talk about it much might be indicators. Maybe they were / are subtly believing something’s wrong, and looking for it in perception missing it’s ‘in the beliefs’. 

[Loop]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Maybe they were / are subtly believing something’s wrong, and looking for it in perception missing it’s ‘in the beliefs’. 

 

Yeah, that is what I am saying. Then I believe it is wrong, transference. There isn’t anything that should or shouldn’t be, just what is. 

 

1 hour ago, Phil said:

They might not be worrying as much as experiencing an underlying shame from the ‘right and wrong’ & righteousness of religious upbringing.

Certainly. Believing there is a “right way to live”, as is born with the believing there is a wrong one. 
 

It feels terrible when someone you live with is constantly feeling a shame that they are fundamentally sinful. 

[Phil]

@Loop

Sorry if I missed it… have you pointed this out to them? 

[Loop]

5 minutes ago, Phil said:

have you pointed this out to them? 

Oh yeah, many different approaches. Directly is usually met with denial of feeling shame, but her current worldview just seems to be that we are all stupid and fucked the world up. 

 

[Phil]

@Loop

What approaches?

[nurthur11]

On 6/16/2022 at 10:37 PM, Phil said:

If they won’t listen to God they aren’t gonna listen to Phil. 

This sentence is like a under-covered god complex. I know god but I am Phil. In this case you go full god. Put your name as philthehumblegod at least it will be cheeky that way. 

[Loop]

@Phil

 

Mostly just asking her about how she feels, it is hard, if I mention her state at all to her in any way she gets really defensive. Without fear she fears she wouldn’t be cautious, would get hurt. My siblings all feel like interacting with her is like attempting not to cut the wrong wire on a bomb, very prone to outburst.

 

Usually I can get good conversations in with her if it is around the end of the day and she is too tired to worry about the next thing that need to be done. I have explained to her things about the emotional scale, meditation, the work, and sometimes she seems to be listening but idk just seems like in one ear and out the other. 
 

It is hard for me to just say, oh well I’ll just do my thing, when I see how much she suffers everyday & even not being with her I still feel she is going through the day like she always does, stressed out. It feel like I need to help her find healing to find my own, not true, but not easy for me to drop. 
 

It has been awhile since I approached her directly about it, just feels pointless as it always leads into her being defensive. 
 

[Phil]

@nurthur11

If they aren’t listening to how they feel, the discord / suffering, they aren’t going to listen to what someone says. 

 

@Loop

I notice when it’s talking to her, it’s ‘her state’, but then when you’re expressing about her, it’s about feeling & suffering. 

Do you see how there is two sets of lingo, two very different sets of framing here (one for you, and another for her)?

‘It’s hard for me’ - points to feeling / how you feel - ‘hard’ - but if I (you) mention her state (a concept, no longer talking about feeling)… (this results in) she get’s… ‘defensive’. Put another way, this isn’t her expressing how she feels like I do, this is ‘her state’… which is ‘defensive’.  The framing of ‘her state’ leads to framing her expressing as ‘an outburst’ 🫤. I’d feel pretty darn cautious to open up and express in this framing as well, less I get the cold conceptualizationed treatment as well. 🥶

 

If it’s pointless because it always leads to her being defensive… flip the script… I believe it’s pointless… because it always leads to me being (very subtly) defensive, about my concepts, like ‘her state’. Reframe - what will always lead to - her feeling better? (And do that)

 

There might also be a subtle belief that fear is ‘some thing she has’, just like ‘a state’, and a subtle albeit innocent projection thus, fear is ‘her state’. Again, if I have some untangling to do, some expression… some emptying to occur… and this was how someone was framing me up in their approach to help.. I’d probably close up or run for the hills too. Put another way, fear isn’t a thing, it’s emotional guidance. It is not possible for ‘someone else’ to have fear, because of any reason, such as the rationalization of… ‘their state’. That’s really a justification that, ‘I’m right’. 

 

‘States’ is basically - “I’m not gonna feel or introspect here no matter how much I’m suffering -  I’m gonna remain right / righteous / the one who ‘knows the truth’ here”. 

 

“It’s hard for me” - is missed, skipped. 

“She’s suffers” - not me. 

“Even not being with her” - “I still feel…” - which is really… I still know… which is really, believed (vs direct experience).

“She’s stressed out” - is really… “I’m not”. Just a super tiny tiny little bit of denial. Innocence. 

“I feel like I need” - is really… I’m believing my own conceptualization here… and it’s leaving me believing I need some thing… to help her… with her “state”. “Things” are being applied… while no thing is already ever-present and abundantly available. 

 

 

 

[Loop]

@Phil

 

I guess what I am saying is it seems to me that the way she goes about expressing herself causes a chain reaction through the family where everyone else gets stress out. Like if you aren’t worry about the problem she is, then that is another problem to her. 
 

Certainly I can see how that framing would cause her to be defensive. Like an attack on her state, everyone else in the family feels like it is an attack on theirs. Creating this cycle. 
 

There isn’t a “her state”, just expression expressing itself. 

I wish she could see how much everyone around her is affected by the way she chooses to express herself sometimes. This is why the thread started with me asking about maintaining equanimity, so I can actually listen to her instead of creating these reactions. 

[Loop]

Not something to maintain, not something you build up, it is what I already am.
I see, “but this thing & that thing”,

thought knots,

Untangling. 

[Phil]

32 minutes ago, Loop said:

@Phil

 

I guess what I am saying is it seems to me that the way she goes about expressing herself causes a chain reaction through the family where everyone else gets stress out. Like if you aren’t worry about the problem she is, then that is another problem to her. 

Certainly I can see how that framing would cause her to be defensive. Like an attack on her state, everyone else in the family feels like it is an attack on theirs. Creating this cycle. 

There isn’t a “her state”, just expression expressing itself. 

“States” is basically denial of the lens of the “separate self”. Like when people used to hold their hand up and say “talk to the hand”. It’s a righteousness / refusal of empathy, connection, unity, understanding & compassion. Walling someone off is walling yourself off. Another way of looking at what’s going on, is she very much has a lot to express, to empty of, and she would feel wonderful for doing so… but struggles to because when she expresses she is blamed for how she expresses, and for everyone’s - the whole family’s - stress and worry. The is not the recognition of the first of the four noble truths, it’s the denial of it.  This leads to her feeling guilt & shame, and thus suppression and isolating herself, and more so, unfortunately even more so not expressing. If you really only care about “your state”, that’s fine, but playing games with her about how “you’re trying to help her” is not helpful to her. 

32 minutes ago, Loop said:

I wish she could see how much everyone around her is affected by the way she chooses to express herself sometimes. 

I wish everyone around her would stop blaming her for how they feel, and feel the blame they are expressing. 🤍

32 minutes ago, Loop said:

This is why the thread started with me asking about maintaining equanimity, so I can actually listen to her instead of creating these reactions. 

Just let go of the “states” / “talk to the hand”, and recognize & express blame.  “Creating reactions” is a misnomer. 

 

Equanimity is what the matrix is made of. Causation is being lost in the matrix. ‘How I feel is only related to what I’m thinkin’, is the beginning of unplugging from the matrix. It is ‘seeing with your eyes for the first time’. You can break the cycle. You are The One. 

 

 

[Loop]

@Phil

 

Well, time to go for a long walk. 

[Phil]

@Loop

In, deed. 

In, deed.

In deed. 

[Loop]

@Phil
 

I don’t really know what to say, I feel terrible. 
 

I see the blaming, “This is a problem, who started it?”, worry about the cycle continuing, doubt that it will unravel, disappointed by the entire situation, overwhelmed, frustrated by attempts to “fix the problem”, it all seems terrible (pessimism), I am bored with thinking just want to be content with the situation, just want to express love towards my friends and family. 

 

I am sure she does very much have something to express, and am sure everyone else around her does too. Just so many years of everyone being closed off towards each other.
 

I am sick of this fear of expression that bleeds through this families veins. I am sick of blaming conditioning, or thinking there is a problem that has a cause. Just thought. 
 

I don’t know better, I don’t know. Knowing illusions, more illusions, just want the heart to be free. 
 

I don’t only care about my state, this conversation is happening because I don’t want my state bleeding into others. I isolate myself to allow the thoughts the settle. 
 

The idea of states has always felt discordant to me, noticing that more now.
I feel worthless, and I don’t want other people to feel like that, I don’t want to be the cause of a downward spiral. 
 

This idea of states, is very strange. 
 

2 hours ago, Phil said:

I wish everyone around her would stop blaming her for how they feel, and feel the blame they are expressing. 🤍

That hit hard.

 

Blaming the blaming. God. “Who started it?” “Who started it?” “She should stop blaming me for how she feels” Oh shut up! 
It doesn’t matter. No one is going to end it either. It will end itself when I stop blaming. 

 

Lord, save me from my anger! 
Save me from needing to be right,

From putting up a fight,

To realize This,

And to not miss.

 

 

Rejecting the lens of being me, 

Still I feel it hiding, 

Behind the corner,

Lights riding. 
 

 

If you can I’d like a deeper explanation of states being the denial of the lens of the separate self, it is certainly what I am experiencing right now.  

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Loop said:

I am sure she does very much have something to express, and am sure everyone else around her does too. Just so many years of everyone being closed off towards each other.

It’s like a Mexican stand off. A circle of people all pointing guns at each other. No one is shooting, yet no one is lowering their gun either. Guns are kinda heavy. It get’s tiring. 

 

1 hour ago, Loop said:

I am sick of this fear of expression that bleeds through this families veins. I am sick of blaming conditioning, or thinking there is a problem that has a cause. Just thought. 
 

Fear’s an emotion.  So fear of expression is actually already expression happening. 😅 It’s easier than we think. What’s being expressed, is that the emotion fear is felt. The relevance of acknowledging that fear is an emotion, and that emotion is guidance… is now the guidance is being received. And it can continue to be allowed. 

Call me crazy but… it can even be welcomed.  If I were in your shoes I’d be “ Well come right on in guidance! Fill this home up! You’re what’s been missin around here!”

 

1 hour ago, Loop said:

I don’t know better, I don’t know. Knowing illusions, more illusions, just want the heart to be free. 

That’s the profound beauty of the guidance. You don’t have to know anything. It knows & Is everything! It’s just about allowing, receiving, listening. The guidance wants what you want.

 

A way to point to the relief, and the profundity, and the never ending Joke…

in “Phil’s head” there’s two peanuts that occasionally bump into each other.

Meanwhile, perception (including “Phil”, and the “peanuts” / thoughts)  is INFINITE INTELLIGENCE. 😂 

 

1 hour ago, Loop said:

I don’t only care about my state, this conversation is happening because I don’t want my state bleeding into others. I isolate myself to allow the thoughts the settle. 

I’m going to say about that what I would most appreciate someone to say to me, zen slap-ish as it may be…. What the hell are you even talking about? What is it you’re calling “my state”? How is a “my state” bleeding into other’s? 

 

1 hour ago, Loop said:

The idea of states has always felt discordant to me, noticing that more now.
I feel worthless, and I don’t want other people to feel like that, I don’t want to be the cause of a downward spiral. 

If you felt worthless, then you could focus on the thought that you feel worthless, and there would be perfect resonating alignment, and no discord at all. 

But when you believe the thought “I feel worthless”, there is discord with that thought. 

That discord is precisely because - you feel VERY MUCH not worthless. So much so - that the very thought does not resonate, at all. 

But there is that thought, that belief, and to deny this is fruitless, because it would be suppressing that discord, that suffering. 

If only there were some way to shed light on this, for the relief to shine through, for there to be clarity. 

Oh wait, I just remembered there is this thingy called emotional scale, and on the scale there is an emotion called “unworthiness”. And according to this “scale”, unworthiness is an emotion, which is guidance about the thought. Apparently you’re supposed to acknowledge that, and then express jealousy. 

I don’t know, but maybe that very next thought also has something to do with this. Maybe “I don’t want other people to feel like” is like, a clue or some kind of indicator about alignment or something. Maybe jealousy is like a shift, from focusing on what you don’t want, to what you do want. So maybe what you want, is actually to feel like some people feel… who confused on what they do want. I don’t know, I’m just speculating here. 

 

1 hour ago, Loop said:

This idea of states, is very strange. 

Not when you notice it’s an idea. 

1 hour ago, Loop said:

If you can I’d like a deeper explanation of states being the denial of the lens of the separate self, it is certainly what I am experiencing right now.  

There’s no such “thing” as identity, just the infinite Self of “Self-Realization” - which is infinite unconditional love. There is not “someone else” to tell this to. There is no one to tell “I’m infinite unconditional love” or “I’m God” too. When there is the experience of believing thoughts, there seems to be the “new identity” - “I am Self-Realized”, “I’m God”. Now the Love that Is, and is infinite & without condition, is appearing as a thought, as if a condition. A belief. The ‘activity of thought’.   Via only believing thoughts, there seems to be a “separate self”. The “one who is self-realized”, or, “the one who is God”. The “my” of my state. The “your” of your state. The me and you, of my state and your state. Then there seems to be a “what”… as in, that which is not me - experience. And the “separate self” is now, via thought attachment, “the one” which is “experiencing a this” right now. States is similar to a child describing how Santa leaves the present(s), never actually having seen Santa leave the present(s), thus innocently missing this is a conceptualization. 

 

The nutshell version is what is infinite & without condition isn’t two or a plurality of states, or time or in time as in a past state, present state, future state, but is appearing as ‘thoughts’, comparative thoughts, self referential thought, to the contrary. 

[BlendingInfinite]

On 6/16/2022 at 3:49 PM, Loop said:

What is wrong? What is wrong? 
 

Growing up I always been asked this, by my parents and grandparents constantly. I believe it got me to start framing things in that way. Took a bit to reframe. Last time my grandma said this to me I asked her “Why don’t you ask me what is right?” 😄
 

Chronic worrying runs in the family it seems, they always seem to be in the mindset of problems that need to be fixed, and if their isn’t one relatively then they make one up. Why can’t it be a joy to tidy the house, or tend to the garden? It is an art, all of it is the practice, every action. Not saying I am a fountain of joy all the time, but it is about what is focused upon, what is being moved towards. 
 

I feel as if they are constantly on a downward spiral, focused upon discordant things. It seemed like a constant struggle living with them, constantly attempting to maintain a stable state so I didn’t spiral down into the same mess. 
 

How does one maintain equanimity well going through the motions of life? 
 

The master is never balanced, they are constantly balancing with what is going on.

 

I’d like to hear about any shifts that anyone has gone through that brought them to a more equanimous state well in action.
Is there anything you like to remind yourself of to bring yourself back into Being? 
Any quick practices, or processes you go through when you notice yourself going into a downward spiral? 
And your thoughts on how to deal with people who tend towards pessimistic ways of thinking. 

Not responding or reacting at all to anything, which doesn't feel good to you. Do this everytime, unless you are forced to in reality, like they make serious threats.

 

What then happens at the beginning, is that they probably feel like they have lost control over you. And they want to get it back with all means. So you must persist in any case. This is the only way out.

 

If you are over the mountain, they will change their behaviour, because they have to.

Edited June 18, 2022 by BlendingInfinite