Thoughts Still Not Disappearing

[bardh]

19 minutes ago, Phil said:

@bardh

Is control of attention a thought about attention?

No it is not. Trying and not trying to control attention has nothing to do with thought. 
 

Okay i have another question: can you control your attention? 

[Phil]

3 minutes ago, bardh said:

No it is not. Trying and not trying to control attention has nothing to do with thought. 
 

Okay i have another question: can you control your attention? 

Experience most fundamentally is that of awareness aware of thought, perception and sensation. 

Do you agree with this statement / is anything else found in direct experience? 

[Orb]

@Phil spiritual unfolding was just another pointer to the segments in my day when no-self is shining.

 

Thanks for the pointers! 🙂

 

@Aware Wolf  appreciate you reaching out on this thread. To make it clear I'm not aiming for a zombie like state or anything like that, or under the assumption that I'll just sit all day and do nothing.

 

I've seen people who are enlightened yet will say with a straight face that there's no thoughts, I wanna be like that that's all. Nothing much deeper to it honestly. 

 

Will admit that self judgements a real bitch and I'm loving it to death.

 

[Aware Wolf]

4 minutes ago, Orb said:

 

 

I've seen people who are enlightened yet will say with a straight face that there's no thoughts, I wanna be like that that's all. Nothing much deeper to it honestly. 

 

 

 

Who are these people?

 

How do they know to go to the bathroom without thought? Does it just happen whenever like horses? 

 

 

[Orb]

@Aware Wolf no point in naming names, as we could easily also question whether they even are enlightened so I'd rather leave it at that. 

 

17 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

How do they know to go to the bathroom without thought? Does it just happen whenever like horses? 

 

I really don't know 😶.

[bardh]

7 hours ago, Phil said:

Experience most fundamentally is that of awareness aware of thought, perception and sensation. 

Do you agree with this statement / is anything else found in direct experience? 

In direct experience there is no awareness; yes, I agree with your statement. 

[Lotus]

18 hours ago, Orb said:

When will source stop appearing as thoughts?

Already does.

 

Look at a tree. That's source.

 

Tree can also be a thought. (That's source-play, too.)

 

What if a newborn looks at a tree? Does it know what a tree is? Or is the baby just marveled by the appearance of the tree, and everything around it?

 

I find developing that sense of wonder, looking through the eyes of a newborn, is most essential for this 'work'. 

[Mandy]

Where does one thought start and stop and another start? 

[Mandy]

8 hours ago, Aware Wolf said:

 

Who are these people?

 

How do they know to go to the bathroom without thought? Does it just happen whenever like horses? 

😂👍

 

Is that really a thought or a feeling though? 

[Phil]

@Orb

There aren’t enlightened people and or unenlightened people.

There are not people who think and people who don’t, aren’t, or stop… thought or thinking. 

These are contextualizations of actuality which were never true in the first place. Not obtainments or achievements. 

 

If that does not seem to be the case, I implore you to consider there is misinformation and or misunderstanding transpiring, as in, emptying out, soon to be seen for what it is and clearly understood. 

 

I suspect there is awareness of this ‘at your end’ already, and there is some proper blame transpiring, in regard to let’s say, spreaders of misinformation, spirituality salesmen, ‘who’ are ‘themselves’ experiencing grandiose egoic delusions & the rollercoaster of ups & downs, and suffering therein. The ‘sales pitch’ is enticing, because it is meant to be, to make money. I suspect there is also the beginning of a healthy expression of blame for those of your past who stand to be ultimately understood and forgiven of their ignorance. They truly did not, and likely still do not know, and suffer accordingly. They are free to ‘do the work’, to inspect and dispel suffering. They are a ‘they sized’ matter. I am a ‘me sized matter’. You are a ‘you sized’ matter. 

 

You are not being scammed in regard to this forum.. You are not being asked for anything, in regard to this forum.

You are not being told meditation is to ‘stop thoughts’. 

This forum has a clear and singular intention - the Message; Truth-God-Love-Self. 

Truth-God-Love-Self forgets it’s own infinitude and true nature, by innocently, and inadvertently identifying with experience. 

Truth-God-Love-Self dispels this identifying, this believing of thoughts, by properly inspecting and expressing, the beliefs it has created, via experience. 

 

Wanting to be or be like someone or something else, is an outward oriented effect, of inward oriented underlying discordance with respect to the Truth of what you actually & already are, which is infinite unconditional love. Infinite can not be understood, as in cognized, or, grasped, or thunk - but when all discordant beliefs are inspected and thus dispelled, infinite is very clearly and obviously what is, or, the truth. Always has been, always will be, and this is the celebration, this is the great relief, this is the great joy of experience, of life and living and creating. Life is a, is the, celebration of ourself, of the infinite love we actually are.  

 

If any thoughts arises of concern in regard to anything you’ve shared, please know, nothing you’ve said or shared has been taken personally here. The intention here is only the spreading of the Message; you are Truth-God-Love-Self.  I say this simply to be as clear as possible, to communicate, that and that alone is the intention. 

 

The resistance, the suffering, of these discordant beliefs is not rectified by attempts to be or become something or someone else other than what you already are, or by obtaining, attaining, or getting enlightenment or getting enlightened…. but by inspecting, expressing, and seeing the resistant discordant feeling beliefs (suffering), aren’t actually true about you. 

 

So to speak - the ‘true self’, and by that I mean only unconditional love, which is absolutely literally synonymous with ‘consciousness’, and ‘awareness’, is unconverted. Not added. Not obtained.  You can not reach, attain or obtain, you. You can ‘do the work’ so to speak, of inspecting beliefs, expressing anything suppressed, uncovering and thus self-realizing as love, the love that you eternally & truly are. 

 

 

Thoughts are already disappearing. Thoughts appear, and disappear, already. Thoughts arise, and pass. Thought come, and go. 

You could park a car in a garage, and unless it’s moved, it will not disappear, it will sit there in that garage. 

Thought is not like the car in the garage, in this sense. Thoughts appear and disappear, and this is already the experience. 

Discordant thoughts which are inspected with care, patience, and love, are beliefs which are naturally dispelled by love, as love. 

 

(*technically, that car and garage will too, come & go, appear & disappear)

 

[Orb]

@Phil

 

Thanks Phil, nothing taken personally at all, communication is key 🔑.  

 

I naturally doubt anything and anyone just to be sure, I don't want to jump into anything blindly if that makes sense. 

 

The answer is and will always be meditation.

[Phil]

43 minutes ago, Orb said:

@Phil

 

Thanks Phil, nothing taken personally at all, communication is key 🔑.  

🙏🏻 😅 

43 minutes ago, Orb said:

 

I naturally doubt anything and anyone just to be sure, I don't want to jump into anything blindly if that makes sense. 

 

The answer is and will always be meditation.

I wonder if ‘behind’ naturally doubting anything and anyone just to be sure… is a sort of inner questioning if they are trustworthy. 

If so, perhaps considering not applying the ‘lens’ of trust to people is the ‘answer’…? 

Personally, I neither trust, nor don’t trust, anyone. I’ve only deduction, my best guess to rely on, and this is not perfect, it is fallible. I learn as I go in this regard. 

Not an easy thing to communicate, but the seen in the matrix comes to mind, with the program they run with the woman in the red dress. Cinema wise, it’s sort of an extreme depiction, but I take it to be about trusting people. I think what they’re saying is anyone can be ‘lost in the matrix’, or, focused only on selfishness, and therein manipulative, deceiving, and or ‘snakelike’, if you will. 

 

I agree - ultimately - meditation is always the answer, in the sense, the solution is always letting go of ‘the problem’… because ‘problem’ is a mindset, which when let go, allows the solution / clarity / way forward to arise.  BUT… there is a fine line between suppressing, and expressing. If a belief or perspective is arising to be seen in the the light of clarity, allow it by expressing it fully. Share it, via writing about it, speaking about it to someone, etc. 

 

“Naturally doubting - to be sure”… has some potential for alignment. It’s possible I’m reading into this… but this perspective holds that there must be doubt, for there to be surety. This is similar to - there must be women who are not “the one”, while waiting for “the one”. Put another way, only if it resonates or ‘clicks’ insightfully… this might be like believing ‘I have to fix myself’ and then she can ‘show up’. 

[Mandy]

Fear of being cheated can be an interesting projection. Effortless attraction can seem too easy, and if we are believing that we must work and suffer to get good stuff it may seem like cheating to get good stuff (or to feel worthy) without the work and suffering. 

[Orb]

@Phil

 

There is a questioning of trustworthiness, and everything you've mentioned about seeing the spiritual scams is true. 

 

I've been looking into each religious group and nothing seems safe from sexual/abuse scandals. 

 

I've recently learned that some of the Zen Masters held in very high esteem were sexually abusing people, so not even zen has that purity.

 

I want to be a pillar of light, not to be dramatic lol but I want people to trust me and not have that sense of uncertainty with me.

 

When we open our minds to something, I notice we can often have an unspoken fear of that thing being wrong or the teacher of that thing being wrong/malicious. 

 

I'm only being honest here, it's such a breath of fresh air to be honest.

 

Maybe deduction is right for me, gives me space to learn from mistakes if my deduction was wrong.

 

There is a beauty to all the scandals and stuff in a fucked up way. When we "zoom out" we always see some amazing thing (galaxies, butterflies flying gracefully), when we "zoom in" we see the clumsiness of creation (bugs flying clumsily, wars on planets, "a buddha" fucking his disciples).

 

12 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Fear of being cheated can be an interesting projection. Effortless attraction can seem too easy, and if we are believing that we must work and suffer to get good stuff it may seem like cheating to get good stuff (or to feel worthy) without the work and suffering. 

 

@Mandy  good stuff. Really hit me.

[Mandy]

@Orb 😊 When people uphold you as great and you believe it/also uphold yourself there's pressure and fear/desire to come down to earth. The doubt that you are special or the doubt that others are special is holy, but don't get stuck in the emotion of doubt.  

 

My grandmother had this in her kitchen and I only noticed it after she passed away and we were cleaning out her house. Now it's in my kitchen. 

 

 

[Orb]

@Mandy I've noticed that yes, pressuring myself. 

 

I don't wanna experience disappointment, realized I'm feeling disappointed that I'm feeling it, then the thought of allowing myself to feel overwhelment is overwhelming! 

[Mandy]

@Orb Disappointment is awesome though. Nothing is as great as you make it out to be, because You are great, without having make yourself or anyone else out as great. Disappointment is a letting go, a way of admitting or saying "F that sh*t". It's something brought to light. A letting go occurs between doubt and disappointment. 

 

Overwhelm is awesome. In the letting go of disappointment, we drop our focus on the subject at hand, and HOLY OL' F*** there are a LOT of subjects to choose from! 😂

Could this be any more perfect or beautiful? No. And also, YES. Overwhelm says, "You are ever expanding, you are always and forever TOO much." Infinite, unconditional. "Too much is perfect", says the law of expansion. It's like Lisa Frank artwork. Or my daughter's stuffed animal collection. Or food on Christmas. Or most of America. 😂

 

[Orb]

@Mandy thanks for clarifying those emotions, feels better. 

 

i dont like to use the scale as i got emotional dyslexia, I can never be 100% of what I'm feeling so I prefer to just be a mess 🙂. 

 

Like now emotionally, there isn't much going on, but to say it's boredom feels off, it's so annoying, like no label really feels right for an emotion. 

 

^noticed I'm showing signs of frustration, it's just annoying that it works for some reason!

[Mandy]

4 minutes ago, Orb said:

 

 

Like now emotionally, there isn't much going on, but to say it's boredom feels off, it's so annoying, like no label really feels right for an emotion. 

Annoyance happens to just be frustration/irritation, that's the next step up from overwhelm. 

 

I luvs you. 😂

 

 

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Mandy said:

Fear of being cheated can be an interesting projection. Effortless attraction can seem too easy, and if we are believing that we must work and suffer to get good stuff it may seem like cheating to get good stuff (or to feel worthy) without the work and suffering. 

That’s awesome. You are Awesome.  🙏🏻 

 

1 hour ago, Orb said:

There is a beauty to all the scandals and stuff in a fucked up way. When we "zoom out" we always see some amazing thing (galaxies, butterflies flying gracefully), when we "zoom in" we see the clumsiness of creation (bugs flying clumsily, wars on planets, "a buddha" fucking his disciples).

Just want to point this out, it often goes unnoticed, and at the same time I’m not saying “I’m right about this”… The Buddha is not a reference to a person. Siddhartha (allegedly, I don’t really know) was the ‘person’. The Buddha means The Enlightened One. From what I understand, this was more of a nickname, what people called him, how people referred to him. I’m not saying he wasn’t serving of this. From reading what he (as far as I know) said, he seems perfectly deserving of this.

 

Referring to Siddhartha as The Enlightened One is all good as far as I’m concerned - YET - believing Siddhartha was / is The Enlightened One also stands to be a misunderstanding of the very writings / sayings / message of what Siddhartha shared. Similarly, Jesus and quotes like “I and my Father are One”. To read what Jesus shared, and conclude ‘Jesus was enlightened’, is fine, no problem, but also potentially misses the greater point of what ‘he’ said.      To really ‘cut to the point’ - ALL is LOVE, and not only are you not separate - YOU are THIS LOVE that is, and is eternal. Phil is a thought. “Phil” (actually) is none other than THIS LOVE as Well. Kind of a ‘sorry, not sorry’ because The Truth is AWESOME  🙂 ♥️ YOU are awesome, YOU are The Truth. 

 

Like Rupert Spira says… the truth, love, you… are the empty sky… and thoughts are the clouds. (I’m adding) each cloud, thought, about you, can be inspected, and every discordant thought about you will be found to be untrue, about you. 

1 hour ago, Orb said:

I've recently learned that some of the Zen Masters held in very high esteem were sexually abusing people, so not even zen has that purity.

 

Woah, slow down brother. 🙂

Similarly, Zen is ineffable, unsayable, unspeakable, undefinable, unthinkable, unbelievable. When Zen is spoken of - it is only in the sense, pointing to that which is unspeakable. 

Zen = absolute purity. What people do or don’t do, is what people do or don’t do. What ‘people’ actually are, what reality is actually made of - is The Love that YOU are. 

(Anything I’m saying about Zen here is of course also not ‘true’, but only ‘pointing’ to Truth). 

1 hour ago, Orb said:

I want to be a pillar of light, not to be dramatic lol but I want people to trust me and not have that sense of uncertainty with me

This might be a ‘pendulum swing’. Isn’t it so… that if you let go of this wanting of people to trust you, you are free of this burden, this desire to be seen or thought of in a certain way? As you don’t experience (directly) the thoughts of others, perhaps this is an impossible expectation. Does it resonate, to simply allow people to think what they will, to question if & what they will, to come to their own conclusions? Is there a more relaxed feeling, in simply being ok with this? To basically say, as Byron Katie says - that’s their business? 

 

1 hour ago, Orb said:

When we open our minds to something, I notice we can often have an unspoken fear of that thing being wrong or the teacher of that thing being wrong/malicious. 

This is just a ‘two cents’, how I’ve come to look at that… a ‘view’ on this, from experience so to speak, which has come to be very, very simple - if someone says to me, in any way or form - “listen to me, even though it feels discordant” - I’m not interested in listening to them any longer. It is crystal clear they are coming from personal selfish motive, and not genuine interest in liberation from suffering. To elaborate a bit, I hear many teachers talk about the many ways of focusing my awareness, 360 degree awareness, states and levels of consciousness, etc, etc, etc. I ‘forgive them’ readily, because ‘they do not know’ of what they speak. Knowingly or not, this is delusion. Knowingly, this is despicable. Unknowingly, this is unconscionable, and more cushion time and silence is in order. Off the top of my head, this is not found with Esther Hicks, Rupert Spira, Jesus, Siddhartha (‘The Buddha’), and Rumi. Not to short change anyone unmentioned, but just to give two cents here on the subject matter at hand. Just to point. Also comes to mind, Osho has a video on ambition, and speaks about it spiritually. Might be worth a google. 

1 hour ago, Orb said:

I'm only being honest here, it's such a breath of fresh air to be honest.

It is here as well. Loving it. Happy for you! (“For you” 🙂 ) ♥️

1 hour ago, Orb said:

 

Maybe deduction is right for me, gives me space to learn from mistakes if my deduction was wrong.

(Imo) not so much… right or wrong, as in conclusive…but just… ongoing, ever changing. 

1 hour ago, Orb said:

 

There is a beauty to all the scandals and stuff in a fucked up way. When we "zoom out" we always see some amazing thing (galaxies, butterflies flying gracefully), when we "zoom in" we see the clumsiness of creation (bugs flying clumsily, wars on planets, "a buddha" fucking his disciples).

🙂 Awesome. The beauty found in this world, is the beauty that you are. 🙏🏻