Thoughts Still Not Disappearing

[Phil]

😍

[Orb]

@Phil

 

I actually never refer to siddhartha as the Buddha, which is why I said A buddha (anyone who claims to be enlightened). I agree that buddha is a title and not an actual name. 

 

Yea you're right about the whole thinking about others opinions about me, that's whats going on right now.

 

I've mentioned 360 degree awareness so cushion time is in order 🙏.

 

I've absorbed the goodness from your post but I don't have much left to say 😅, as always thanks so much!

[Aware Wolf]

6 hours ago, Mandy said:

😂👍

 

Is that really a thought or a feeling though? 

 

There's pressure on abdomen. What could this mean? I remember as a child complaining of a stomach ache. My mother asked me if I'd pooped. Ahhh. That was it. Let's say one makes the proper discrimination that it's a poop issue rather than appendicitis, preganancy, or intestinal cancer. How shall this issue be addressed? Just pooping where we are, while fine for horses, is frowned upon. There are no signs in Thailand Buddhist Temples, written in English and Chinese, saying no pooping. This is because many Chinese tourists traveling with small children have a slit in their trousers so they can poop wherever. The Thais don't like people pooping on temple grounds. 

 

Perhaps we are away from home. Do we try to make it home? Or take a risk and try a public bathroom? When we go to the public bathroom, is their a sign or symbol on the door where we can determine which bathroom is appropriate for our gender. What is our gender today? How is the pressure? Do we just relax and poop or do we need to make some effort? What does this effort look like? When we clean up after a perfect victory, do we use toilet paper like dirty westerners or can we use a bidet and water? Afterwards, what grade did our poop receive? How is the texture? No bleeding? Good. We can notice the impermanance of the body with the poop. A few minutes ago this poop was part of our body and we would have protected it. We can contemplate the earth element in ourselves here along with the stray bits of corn. Also the fractalness of the poop. There's a lot to unpack here if one is mindful. 

 

So ya, thoughts. Someone who claims to be without thoughts -- I'm skeptical. Perhaps they mean the DMN the discoursive mode network is quieter in them. There's studies that show that this is kinda true for longterm practitioners. I've noticed it myself. Zen puts an emphasis into "no-thinking" -- but this doesn't mean no thoughts. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Aware Wolf

[Aware Wolf]

I like the following excerpt from Sam Harris's book Waking Up:

 

*

 

On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her.

 

She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the profundity of her experience.

 

When it came time for our group to leave India for Nepal, this woman asked if she could join us. Because she was such good company, we encouraged her to come along. A few of us were also curious to see how her realization would appear in another context. And so it came to pass that a woman whose enlightenment had just been confirmed by one of the greatest living exponents of Advaita Vedanta was in the room when we received our first teachings from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, who was generally thought to be one of the greatest living Dzogchen masters.

 

Of all the Buddhist teachings, those of Dzogchen most closely resemble the teachings of Advaita. The two traditions seek to provoke the same insight into the nonduality of consciousness, but, generally speaking, only Dzogchen makes it absolutely clear that one must practice this insight to the point of stability and that one can do so without succumbing to the dualistic striving that haunts most other paths.

 

At a certain point in our discussions with Tulku Urgyen, our Swiss prodigy declared her boundless freedom in terms similar to those she had used to such great effect with Poonja-ji. After a few highly amusing exchanges, during which we watched Tulku Urgyen struggle to understand what our translator was telling him, he gave a short laugh and looked the woman over with renewed interest.

 

“How long has it been since you were last lost in thought?” he asked.

“I haven’t had any thoughts for over a week,” the woman replied.

Tulku Urgyen smiled.

“A week?”

“Yes.”

“No thoughts?”

“No, my mind is completely still. It’s just pure consciousness.”

“That’s very interesting. Okay, so this is what is going to happen now: We are all going to wait for you to have your next thought. There’s no hurry. We are all very patient people. We are just going to sit here and wait. Please tell us when you notice a thought arise in your mind.”

It is difficult to convey what a brilliant and subtle intervention this was. It may have been the most inspired moment of teaching I have ever witnessed.

 

After a few moments, a look of doubt appeared on our friend’s face.

 

“Okay . . . Wait a minute . . . Oh . . . That could have been a thought there . . . Okay . . .”

Over the next thirty seconds, we watched this woman’s enlightenment completely unravel. It became clear that she had been merely thinking about how expansive her experience of consciousness had become—how it was perfectly free of thought, immaculate, just like space—without noticing that she was thinking incessantly. She had been telling herself the story of her enlightenment—and she had been getting away with it because she happened to be an extraordinarily happy person for whom everything was going very well for the time being.

 

This was the danger of nondual teachings of the sort that Poonja-ji was handing out to all comers. It was easy to delude oneself into thinking that one had achieved a permanent breakthrough, especially because he insisted that all breakthroughs must be permanent. What the Dzogchen teachings make clear, however, is that thinking about what is beyond thought is still thinking, and a glimpse of selflessness is generally only the beginning of a process that must reach fruition. Being able to stand perfectly free of the feeling of self is the start of one’s spiritual journey, not its end.

[Aware Wolf]

2 hours ago, Orb said:

@Phil

 

There is a questioning of trustworthiness, and everything you've mentioned about seeing the spiritual scams is true. 

 

I've been looking into each religious group and nothing seems safe from sexual/abuse scandals. 

 

I've recently learned that some of the Zen Masters held in very high esteem were sexually abusing people, so not even zen has that purity.

 

I want to be a pillar of light, not to be dramatic lol but I want people to trust me and not have that sense of uncertainty with me.

 

When we open our minds to something, I notice we can often have an unspoken fear of that thing being wrong or the teacher of that thing being wrong/malicious. 

 

You're wise to be wary of spiritual teachers and teachings. I often say it's Buyer Beware in the spiritual marketplace. And that one must do their due diligence. Google prospective teachers, centers, and ashrams and see what's out there. We should be wary of spiritual attainments and claims. If someone has special powers or siddhis -- prove it. If someone claims to have no thoughts -- it's brilliant because it's practically impossible to prove or disprove. The spiritual conman is in a good business because there's no vetting. Anyone can claim anything, anything at all. As Christopher Hitchens says, claims presented without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. 

 

But I want to add here it is hardly just Zen masters who've sexually abused people. It's all of them. Catholics priests, Yoga teachers, Hindu gurus, Tibetan Buddhist gurus, Theravadan monks, Christian youth counselors, New Age teachers, etc etc. 

 

If you're worried about this, just don't put all your eggs into one teacher without really being sure. This is why I recommend exploring with different teachers and different traditions. Also use Google to check teachers out. We can learn from others but we don't have to give up our own authority to anyone. We are in a golden age of media. Audios from a legit teacher are widely available. There's classic spiritual books online or available as ebooks. 

 

 

[Mandy]

@Aware Wolf 😂 

 

 

[bardh]

On 5/15/2022 at 5:03 PM, Orb said:

In meditation, thoughts still arise, and any attempt to not think is more thinking. 

 

What's going on here? 

 

When will source stop appearing as thoughts?

Okay, so sit in meditation and if a thought arises, stop it, even if you you start having a headache, force your way through. Really try this. No thoughts mode. Whatever the thought might be, stop the thought. Clench your jaw and to also stop thinking outload. Thinking out loud and thinking will not happen! Keep your eyes open - this is the most important part of this mediation. If it is becoming hard just breath your way through. No thinking, no thinking outload and eyes open. Only breathing. Do this for 3 min.

 

If the thinking back after you have finished the meditation then you have not successfully dissociated yourself yet. For sure, 3 min is not enough to get yourself dissociated you need something like 2-3 years of practice. If it comes back go ahead and try more times until you get dissociated. If you think that emotion are producing you the thoughts then try clenching your stomach. If this doesn't work then fill yourself with tension and let it penetrate through the place were thought, speaking, emotion, are.  Remember the goal. Once you get to the point that your only memories are this place you have now created then you have successfully dissociated yourself.

 

Try practicing while you are doing an activity. Direct this practice towards that activity, for example reading. This is also very important part. It has to become your nature.

 

Now this is the most important part. Step inside this open place and live through that open space. So this is your new filter. Your new personality.  This is how you relate to others. This is what separates you from the world out there. But it is not the end yet, because this space reaches the walls, the other person's - realize this. You should get rid of the duality this space is creating by going deeper inside this space. 

 

You can never leave. I know its sad but you cant do anything about it.  

[bardh]

@orb I am joking ofc hyhy

 

My current honest thought on this matter is that all your experience, thoughts, perception, beliefs, sense of self are "generated" "automatically" and I believe that they are healthy. No matter what you do you cannot stop it.  It doesn't really matter how or what you practice it will just more of the same thing.

 

I think Mandy mentioned somewhere: you can have your cake and eat it too.

Edited May 16, 2022 by bardh

[Orb]

@bardh 😁

[bardh]

Just now, Orb said:

@bardh 😁

I edited my last post.

[Phil]

58 minutes ago, bardh said:

I am joking ofc 

😅

[Aware Wolf]

@bardh

 

You had me there. 

 

But then there's no crazy sh*t that people won't say spiritually. There's a guy on YouTube who claims he's God and can cure all disease. 

 

 

[Faith]

2 hours ago, Aware Wolf said:

There's a guy on YouTube who claims he's God and can cure all disease. 

Oh, the guy who also claims to be so intelligent that others should view him as a supernatural entity or deity.  🙄

I laughed so hard when I heard that. I think that took a good 5-7 minutes to stop laughing at that one. 

 

[bardh]

13 hours ago, Aware Wolf said:

@bardh

 

You had me there. 

 

But then there's no crazy sh*t that people won't say spiritually. There's a guy on YouTube who claims he's God and can cure all disease. 

 

 

In my case the crazy shit that happened to be was that I believe that non duality is attention. This is the main problem with spirituality from my perspective: There is this idea I don't know if you saw in YouTube it talks about how things are just appearing(Ariana, Occult Theo) there is almost a personification of the subject(attention) in their face when they speak about it. In one of the YouTube video - one of these guys actually is spontaneously reflecting and at some moment hears a baby the baby in the park crying, he says its not a baby crying it is just a sound, he says that the only real thing is this subject. Of course there appears to be a baby. This a complete misunderstanding. Complete naivety. This is being self aware of the subject! Even back when I commented this video I intuitively understood and shared with him that he was wrong. 

 

So, after this follows that yourself projected shits are strictly yours and you should fix it against the background of non duality, attention, subject or whatever you want to call it. Or, you are the subject and the projected shit doesn't exist as doesn't the baby in the park. Yes you are the subject, yet you are self aware, egoistic, emotional, have a body in this world, feel pain. The subject is unreachable by self awareness because it is what everyone in the world is. That is the reality. Y

 

My believe now is that we will not ever pin point non duality, attention, subject. We can of course be self aware about these things: Were is my attention? How am I feeling it? How does my body feel? Or be part of certain meditation that I have put above? You can have a strong of egoic self which you are self aware, or all of this thing at the same time. Super important to do this type of work. Most important is to understand, what has not stopped "working" during the entire time we spent doing this stuff or living life is consciousness. Its not like the moment we started meditating it got on and then it got off. This is believing in reality.

 

One can push himself into his thoughts and create a mini reality. My joke in the previous comments. One can make a "framework" this is thought space, outside is walls, there is my dad my mother, this is my girlfriend, someone is feeling sad when someone feels sad I should tap on his shoulder. Did I tap too hard? Is this tapping in line with my framework? Or say, enough with "frameworks" I will not create any framework this is all illusion. Still the same misunderstanding framework or not framework. Whatever. In the meanwhile, this is all created within the consciousness/reality we all share. My believe now is that, If there is a need for a framework it will be created itself. 

[Phil]

ANY thought which is inspected is realized to be a thought, and not, ‘true’, and thus, ‘disappears’ - no longer arises. 

But the difference is doing ‘the work’, and not just thinking about, doing the work. 

 

The Work:

Judge Your Neighbor Worksheet

[Orb]

@Phil got the app! 

 

Used it twice, will be "working" all day today 😉. 

 

Can you believe I never listened to her because I didn't like her haircut! 😅

 

How judgemental of "me", angels come in all shapes and sizes ❤️. Never again.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Orb

[Phil]

✊🏼😂