Thoughts Still Not Disappearing

[Orb]

In meditation, thoughts still arise, and any attempt to not think is more thinking. 

 

What's going on here? 

 

When will source stop appearing as thoughts?

[Nowt]

Are you purposely trying to stop them? If so, perhaps just try and relax a little and notice that you don't actually have any control over them. You sound as if you're in a bit of a thought loop and in a sense just giving the mind even more ammunition by trying to avoid thinking.  Just gently keep bringing yourself back to the concentration on the breath.

 

The more you practice, the more they will slow down, but you'll never stop them completely. Trying to stop thoughts is like trying to stop the weather! 

 

“There was a young man who said though

it seems that I know that I know

but what I would like to see is the I that knows me

when I know that I know that I know.”

Alan  Watts

[Orb]

@Nowt

 

3 minutes ago, Nowt said:

The more you practice, the more they will slow down, but you'll never stop them completely.

 

It's confusing though, because saying they've slowed down is just saying that you get me? Like we can't actually measure the speed of thoughts or anything like that. 

 

Many teachers say different things and it's confusing, some say there's no thoughts, others say thoughts arise for no one. I'm not sure what's going on here.

 

5 minutes ago, Nowt said:

Are you purposely trying to stop them? If so, perhaps just try and relax a little and notice that you don't actually have any control over them. You sound as if you're in a bit of a thought loop and in a sense just giving the mind even more ammunition by trying to avoid thinking.  Just gently keep bringing yourself back to the concentration on the breath.

 

I don't know if I'm trying to stop them, no definite answer on that one. 

 

I feel relaxed in meditation already, just saying that thoughts still arise so I don't get why people say there are no thoughts. 

 

I mean I get that technically thoughts don't exist because the word "thought" is used to label something nameless but experientially,  do they disappear? 

[Orb]

If I'm meditating for years and thoughts still arise, the "teacher(s)" will say you're just not doing it right, how do I know I'm not getting scammed?

[Nowt]

@Orb  I can only speak from my own personal experience, but thoughts happen. I have used an app called Headspace in the past and I like what they say about thoughts. Hopefully this might explain it better than I can. 

 

When meditating, we are not engaged in thinking. That does not mean the mind will be empty—thoughts will still appear—but we are not looking to engage with these thoughts. We are training the mind to no longer chase every thought we like, and to no longer resist every thought we don't like.

 

Although I do meditate it's not a go-to thing for me and I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means. Hopefully someone who knows it much better might elaborate further? @Phil

[Mandy]

57 minutes ago, Orb said:

I feel relaxed in meditation already, just saying that thoughts still arise so I don't get why people say there are no thoughts. 

 

I mean I get that technically thoughts don't exist because the word "thought" is used to label something nameless but experientially,  do they disappear? 

Get utterly present with "a thought", utterly now. What is "a thought" made of?

[Mandy]

58 minutes ago, Orb said:

If I'm meditating for years and thoughts still arise, the "teacher(s)" will say you're just not doing it right, how do I know I'm not getting scammed?

Scammed? Why the word scammed? Why the fear of being scammed? What is there to being scammed? 

[Mandy]

54 minutes ago, Nowt said:

Although I do meditate it's not a go-to thing for me and I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means. Hopefully someone who knows it much better might elaborate further?

🤗

[Nowt]

@Mandy Thanks Mandy!  😍

[Phil]

As a reference… we all think and talk about hot and cold. But there is no such thing as hot & cold. It’s conditioning basically. There’s only heat, which is apparent, and heat transferring. This is easy to see if you hold an ice cube. The thought and sentence could arise, “this feels cold”. What’s actually happening is heat is transferring, ultimately melting the ice cube. 

 

It’s the same for meditation. That there is a separate self, a meditator, one who meditates, a thinker, etc, etc, is conditioning… the believing of thoughts. So, no thought about meditation will do. No thought about meditation, is actually about, meditation. Every occurrence of a thought arising, about meditation… isn’t per se true or false… but simple is not actually about meditation. Believing thoughts about meditation are actually about meditation…. is believing thoughts - which is the opposite of the whole point - of meditation. The best meditation can be referenced or pointed to (imo) is - allowing the activity of thought to settle, by bringing attention to feeling breathing in the stomach. 

 

This can not be done by thinking about meditation, any more than riding a bike can be done by thinking about riding a bike. 

 

Meditation (most fundamentally) is… bringing attention to feeling breathing in the stomach. Thus, attention is not, on thoughts. It may very well be found that attention returns to thoughts. That is not a ‘problem’ and imo should not be regarded as a problem. It’s perfectly natural, as attention has been over-given to the activity of thought, probably ‘your whole life’. (Which is a thought).  Simply notice, and return attention to feeling breathing from the stomach. If this occurs a hundred times, that’s ok. As a concession… it’s progress… it’s heading in the right direction. (‘A hundred times’ is of course, just another thought. )

 

With a pinch of humorous sentiment, one way to look at it is… if a question arises about bringing attention to feeling breathing in the stomach… 

that question… is just a thought, which attention is now on… and awareness has missed the point of meditation, and ‘fallen for’, or is believing… thoughts about meditation. 

 

 

 

 

[Iesu]

44 minutes ago, Phil said:

As a reference… we all think and talk about hot and cold. But there is no such thing as hot & cold. It’s conditioning basically. There’s only heat, which is apparent, and heat transferring. This is easy to see if you hold an ice cube. The thought and sentence could arise, “this feels cold”. What’s actually happening is heat is transferring, ultimately melting the ice cube. 

A super nova of Love ❤️

[Aware Wolf]

3 hours ago, Orb said:

In meditation, thoughts still arise, and any attempt to not think is more thinking. 

 

What's going on here? 

 

When will source stop appearing as thoughts?

 

This would be a good journal entry. What does the future journal entry look like I wonder....? 

 

[Phil]

@Iesu

♥️ 💥

 

 

 

Another thought, if one is going to think about meditation… just set a timer for how long you’ll be meditating. 10 mins, an hour, 2 hours, whatever, wherever you’re at so to speak. This way 12 hours don’t pass by inexplicably during meditation. 🙂

[Nowt]

@Phil 😍🙌

[Aware Wolf]

If you did entirely omit thoughts what might this look like?

 

Deep sleep? Anasthesia? A drugged out zombie-like state? 

 

What's the insight to be gained in these states? 

[Orb]

3 hours ago, Mandy said:

Get utterly present with "a thought", utterly now. What is "a thought" made of?

@Mandy the ocean, aka reality.

 

3 hours ago, Mandy said:

Scammed? Why the word scammed? Why the fear of being scammed? What is there to being scammed? 

Idk we got cults and "false prohets" everywhere these days, just being cautious is all. 

 

@Phil how come spiritual unfoldings happen even with thoughts arising? 

 

Really just a curious question here, but why daily are there glimpses or moments of no-self? Maybe there's no answer to this idk. Like when outside in the "world" there's just being, everything is what it is and that's fine, but thoughts still arise, so weird/confusing.

 

And makes sense, nothing about meditation is actually meditation.

 

2 hours ago, Phil said:

@Iesu

♥️ 💥

 

 

 

Another thought, if one is going to think about meditation… just set a timer for how long you’ll be meditating. 10 mins, an hour, 2 hours, whatever, wherever you’re at so to speak. This way 12 hours don’t pass by inexplicably during meditation. 🙂

 

I'd love 12 hours to pass by inexplicably!

 

58 minutes ago, Aware Wolf said:

If you did entirely omit thoughts what might this look like?

 

Deep sleep? Anasthesia? A drugged out zombie-like state? 

 

What's the insight to be gained in these states? 

@Aware Wolf the thing I'm looking for is precisely no more insights lol. 

 

From my understanding, cessation is not a state, only the fullness of what life has to offer without the baggage of self. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Orb

[Aware Wolf]

@Orb

 

what's wrong with Insights? Okay then, what about your LACK of insights then! 

 

Christopher Titmuss said this to a meditator once and I thought it brilliant koan/point to ponder. 

 

You've seen no-self. Wonderful. But this experience comes and goes. You want it to stay. Selfing happens. You find it uncomfortable. This is the dukkha of unsatisfactoriness. The mind cognizes. Selfing happens. I don't know if it's even possible to be free of this, and even if you could, it's probably akin to spiritual bypassing. What is doable is to be mindful of thoughts, to be free of taking thoughts seriously, and to be kind to the self and selfing and to hold onto things lightly. Notice when there's a big self (jealousy or hatred) and small self (altruism and generosity). Be mindful and don't judge yourself. Or if you do ... -- notice the judging mind. Relax. 

 

You want 12 hours to pass by inexplicable. I don't know what to say here -- maybe go to sleep or take a nap? Drink some alcohol and get on your phone? I don't think you really want this, do you? 

 

You're unlikely to escape from thoughts. Even if you did -- such a zombie like state isn't to be envied. Thoughts are just thoughts. They come. They stay for a while. They go. Beneficial thoughts may be encouraged. Unbeneficial thoughts are just unbeneficial thoughts and need not be acted upon. Be mindful and decide for yourself a wise course of action. You want fullness -- reflect and decide what's most important to you. Follow your Path. Be kind to yourself and others. Have a sense of humor and wonder. Relax and allow things to be. Thoughts will come, and selfing happens. Notice that. Notice the self-judgement here. Be kind to yourself and notice the judging mind. It is not you. It's trying to do the best it can. We're human beings and we've not been given perfect tools here by evolution. I don't know if I understand everything going on here in these few short posts , but I'd say get comfortable in your own skin. Accept yourself as you are. 

 

 

[Phil]

4 hours ago, Orb said:

how come spiritual unfoldings happen even with thoughts arising? 

What are spiritual unfoldings? 

4 hours ago, Orb said:

 

Really just a curious question here, but why daily are there glimpses or moments of no-self?
 

Because the rest of the day there are thoughts about a separate self, past, future, etc, and beliefs like there are days. 
 

Meditation is allowing thought to settle. Uninspected beliefs and suppression can arise again. Expressive journaling, using the emotional scale, retreats, healing modalities and therapy are helpful. 

[bardh]

@Philso as i understand you and let me know if i am wrong. Control of attention has nothing to do with thoughts? 

[Phil]

@bardh

Is control of attention a thought about attention?