Biden and Trump

[Jonas Long]

BTW for the last 100 years the economy has always done better under a democratic president.  The most annoying thing about the democrats is they are so shy and reluctant and about setting shit like this straight for some reason, and being really coy about a lot of their policies which actually are very popular with most Americans because they're afraid of fox news or something, which is going to shit on them anyway no matter what they do.

[Mandy]

@Jonas Long Hypocrisy is the result of dualistic appearance, like a red apple appears red because every color is absorbed except the red which is rejected/reflected which then allows us to identify that the apple is "red". 

 

Interesting that the states the the most liberal governments actually have the most disparity and inaccessibility in housing, high homelessness rates, and conservative Presidents often do things that are actually incredibly liberal (usually in the form of spending) and no one bats an eye. 

[Jonas Long]

8 minutes ago, Mandy said:

@Jonas Long Hypocrisy is the result of dualistic appearance, like a red apple appears red because every color is absorbed except the red which is rejected/reflected which then allows us to identify that the apple is "red". 

 

Interesting that the states the the most liberal governments actually have the most disparity and inaccessibility in housing, high homelessness rates, and conservative Presidents often do things that are actually incredibly liberal (usually in the form of spending) and no one bats an eye. 

One reason for that is the biggest cities are usually under democratic governments and there's naturally going to be more disparities there between the haves and have nots.    

 

Other than DC the states with the highest violent crimes rates are all red states too.  New Mexico, Alaska, Arkansas, Tennessee, and  Louisiana are at the top.

Edited August 28 by Jonas Long

[Jonas Long]

Theres nothing more I'd like than actual good faith discussions about the issues taking place between both parties, but the hyperbole and vitriol that has become the norm since trump makes it absolutely impossible.  Not that we were close to where we'd like to be before him, but since it's reached a frightening and maddening extreme where the minefield of lies anger has made it basically impossible.

[Jonas Long]

Not to mention having more than 2 parties. 

[Mandy]

13 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

One reason for that is the biggest cities are usually under democratic governments and there's naturally going to be more disparities there between the haves and have nots.    

 

Other than DC the states with the highest violent crimes rates are all red states too.  New Mexico, Alaska, Arkansas, Tennessee, and  Louisiana are at the top.

I think that climate affects that a lot too. Alaska is an interesting case. 

 

It's a really interesting dynamic that cities vote so liberal, yet have the worst disparity. It's like people are more about the identification of having their values rather than the values. 

 

 

[Mandy]

13 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

Theres nothing more I'd like than actual good faith discussions about the issues taking place between both parties, but the hyperbole and vitriol that has become the norm since trump makes it absolutely impossible.  Not that we were close to where we'd like to be before him, but since it's reached a frightening and maddening extreme where the minefield of lies anger has made it basically impossible.

Never before has the desire to see through the polarity been so strong. 

[Jonas Long]

Just now, Mandy said:

Never before has the desire to see through the polarity been so strong. 

Yeah, like sometimes a person has to get cancer or something and almost die in order to appreciate life I guess.

[Jonas Long]

7 minutes ago, Mandy said:

I think that climate affects that a lot too. Alaska is an interesting case. 

 

It's a really interesting dynamic that cities vote so liberal, yet have the worst disparity. It's like people are more about the identification of having their values rather than the values. 

 

 

Yeah it's kind of like that, but also, when there's a densely populated area, and especially under capitalism, that disparity is going to be made starkly evident.  I think Florida is number 3 in the states with the highest unhoused population.

[Mandy]

Just now, Jonas Long said:

Yeah it's kind of like that, but also, when there's a densely populated area, and especially under capitalism, that disparity is going to be made starkly evident.  I think Florida is number 3 in the states with the highest unhoused population.

Yeah, you'd expect Florida, but New York and California are supposed to be all about policies that help that. California is full of HOAs and zoning that prevents affordable homes from being built. 

[Jonas Long]

5 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Yeah, you'd expect Florida, but New York and California are supposed to be all about policies that help that. California is full of HOAs and zoning that prevents affordable homes from being built. 

I think lack of regulations on a federal level make it almost impossible for any policies on a state level to really address the poverty issue, and also mental illness being inextricably linked with the homeless issue.  Again, part of Harris' plan is to build affordable housing so we'll see.  Also eliminating medical debt which is a huge deal.  And free college for those under a certain financial level. 

[Mandy]

6 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

I think lack of regulations on a federal level make it almost impossible for any policies on a state level to really address the poverty issue, and also mental illness being inextricably linked with the homeless issue.  Again, part of Harris' plan is to build affordable housing so we'll see.  Also eliminating medical debt which is a huge deal.  And free college for those under a certain financial level. 

I'd rather just see free community college or free state college for med students and teachers or whatever jobs aren't being filled. The problem with  the "under a certain level" is it incentivizes being under a certain level and making sure you stay there. 

[Jonas Long]

4 minutes ago, Mandy said:

I'd rather just see free community college or free state college for med students and teachers or whatever jobs aren't being filled. The problem with  the "under a certain level" is it incentivizes being under a certain level and making sure you stay there. 

I'd rather see that too, but I don't think the opportunity to go to college incentivises people to remain in poverty, that's a zero sum game, the idea is they can get a college education to help pull them out of poverty.  If the end goal of remaining in poverty for the sake of going to college, there isn't much to be gained from that in itself, not a very effective hustle.

Edited August 28 by Jonas Long

[Mandy]

4 minutes ago, Jonas Long said:

I'd rather see that too, but I don't think the opportunity to go to college incentives people to remain in poverty, that's a zero sum game, the idea is they can get a college education to help pull them out of poverty.  If the end goal of remaining in poverty for the sake of going to college, there isn't much to be gained from that in itself, not a very effective hustle.

It's usually the parent's money you're going off of though, unless it's an older adult changing careers. My parents made too much for me to get much financial aid, but had zero money to contribute to college because of the way they managed it. 

[Jonas Long]

7 minutes ago, Mandy said:

It's usually the parent's money you're going off of though, unless it's an older adult changing careers. My parents made too much for me to get much financial aid, but had zero money to contribute to college because of the way they managed it. 

I just think doing anything about it is better than doing nothing about it. 

[Orb]

@Mandy I honestly think that the economy was much better under trumps administration, thereby making life easier for the average person.

 

I tend to prefer policies that improve the environment/economy and thus allow you of your own free-will to pursue success on your own. Rather than "hand outs" which I feel are the majority of democratic policies. Im all for bettering the lives of people in this country, im just asking how does it work? For example I hate hospital bills with a passion lol, but how would free universal healthcare work? How would this be paid? And would services like these increase government spending? Therefore raising the federal debt even higher?

 

Although there was also a lot of increased government spending under trump, and I do think he's full of shit on certain points and he's a narcissist most likely. 

 

I also dont trust Kamala, and her popularity is really coming from people being so against trump that they'll just take anyone else. From what ive heard she's also wrongfully convicted many people during her history as a prosecutor. She also doesn't seem very coherent to be honest and she has a very evasive vibe. 

 

And before anyone of you tries to pull the whole "oh you think she's not coherent because she's a woman!" thing, I think Tulsi Gabbard was a great potential candidate and she was actually a real representation of the "Strong Independent Woman" thing that Kamala Harris tries to appear as.

 

When people speak of free this free that etc. I dont really trust it because it's like "the opium of the people" if that makes sense. 

[Orb]

4 hours ago, Mandy said:

@Jonas Long Hypocrisy is the result of dualistic appearance, like a red apple appears red because every color is absorbed except the red which is rejected/reflected which then allows us to identify that the apple is "red". 

 

Interesting that the states the the most liberal governments actually have the most disparity and inaccessibility in housing, high homelessness rates, and conservative Presidents often do things that are actually incredibly liberal (usually in the form of spending) and no one bats an eye. 

I knew a woman who was completely being taken care of via government support, she never had to pay a single bill with her own money, everything was paid for. She had her own apartment, money was provided for groceries and all essential needs, even her medication was completely covered. She never had any debilitating condition except for being diagnosed with depression. She was basically living in filth and visibly unhealthy and broke. This is why I dont trust the "free college, free money, free everything!" type of thinking that tends to circulate in more left leaning people. 

 

The idea that the government can provide just enough help to boost you into your own prosperity from your own hard work sounds nice, but It seems like it never really works out because its based on the same old thinking that some higher force/authority must take care of us. 

 

Ideally, the government is supposed to function as a neutral agent that isn't rooted in any religious ideology or any particular belief system and operates solely for the benefit of its people, but of course "the government" is composed of many people with personal beliefs trying to serve their own agendas. So its paradoxical and will never work.

[Kevin]

9 hours ago, Jonas Long said:

Both Obama and Biden deported more undocumented immigrants than trump did, that's just another case of sound and fury and lies.  Democrats have never been for "open borders" and trump even made the republicans in congress kill a bipartisan border bill which was written by a republican only because he didn't want it happening during Bidens term.  No principles whatsoever, only using the issue to fear monger and to bash Democrats for nothing.  Another lie that is being repeated is that crime is up under Biden, when it is down from what it was under trump.  So another thing Harris is proposing is to bring back that border bill, which is really too conservative for my liking as it doesn't include a pathway to citizenship, but it's another glaring example of trumps lies and hypocrisy. 

You have some massive shadow material around trump.

[Kevin]

I think Trump is the best choice in this election. I have a theory that who we vote for isn’t really about their policies. I think we vote for who we like and then we find reasons after we decide to justify our vote.

 

Anyway I like Trump and I am very distrustful of Kamala. Kamala has been in favor of some crazy radical policies in the past but now she’s the nominee it seems like she’s hiding her policies? Her website has 0 info on what she supports or what policies she cares about.

 

Also I think the nail in the coffin for me is how the mainstream media is basically doing propaganda for the Democratic Party and by extension Kamala. The media have been sucking Kamala off since Biden stepped down.

[Mandy]

8 hours ago, Orb said:

This is why I dont trust the "free college, free money, free everything!" type of thinking that tends to circulate in more left leaning people. 

That's all or nothing way of looking at it, which is what shuts down the conversation and the moderation that we want, then results in candidates who do have extreme inflexible views. Then that results in gridlock. 

 

8 hours ago, Orb said:

The idea that the government can provide just enough help to boost you into your own prosperity from your own hard work sounds nice, but It seems like it never really works out because its based on the same old thinking that some higher force/authority must take care of us. 

Consider just the subject of healthcare for a minute. Insurance, pharmaceutical companies and hospital CEO's are that authority. And they have one main incentive, it's not to take care of us, not wellbeing, it's profit. This only works and serves in the way of innovation, and innovation in turn saves lives but also makes the available care including the newest advancements cost more money. That incentive really needs to be balanced with the incentive to provide everyone with good, quick, quality, affordable care. 

 

I've experienced having state provided Medicare for a family member and regular private health insurance. With the Medicare family member, if they need care, they get care. The main focus upon leaving the ER or doctor's office is walking out and caring for them without any other consideration. With the private heath insurance family member, cost is the first consideration of whether they can wait, or can seek care in the first place. This is a hard decision to make because we have NO idea what the cost will be when we go. It's not transparent. Then when it's over, there's lots of paperwork, payments and insurance stuff to follow through. Any mental health or extra care like PT is totally off limits for the private insurance family member. I think our society is paying for this in way more ways than just money. Is money even really a measure of success or failure?