What's my ultimate fate in existence?

[Blessed2]

17 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I sense that you are saying something 

Epic and profound here

 

Me too. 😂 

 

17 minutes ago, Someone here said:

could you explain this a lil bit further? 

 

Right now the situation seems to be that you do not know what the 'ultimate fate', or 'absolute, endgame truth' of existence. It seems that you do not know "the final answer" to existence.

 

The situation could also be that you do know the ultimate fate, endgame truth and final answer to existence.

 

Yet both of these situations would be equally known in awareness. You'd be completely aware of both situations.

 

 

Similarly, it may seem like now you are not enlightened.

 

Or it could seem like you are enlightened. Maybe in the future or something.

 

But both of these situations, 'being enlightened' or 'not being enlightened', you'd be aware of. Both would be known in awareness. As you already are aware of everything.

 

 

"The ultimate answer", or enlightenment, is this simple, everyday, normal knowing/being aware of whatever the situation seems to be, whether it is knowing the truth or not knowing the truth, being enlightened or not being enlightened.

 

Edited May 27 by Blessed2

[Someone here]

24 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

 

Me too. 😂 

 

 

Right now the situation seems to be that you do not know what the 'ultimate fate', or 'absolute, endgame truth' of existence. It seems that you do not know "the final answer" to existence.

 

The situation could also be that you do know the ultimate fate, endgame truth and final answer to existence.

 

Yet both of these situations would be equally known in awareness. You'd be completely aware of both situations.

 

 

Similarly, it may seem like now you are not enlightened.

 

Or it could seem like you are enlightened. Maybe in the future or something.

 

But both of these situations, 'being enlightened' or 'not being enlightened', you'd be aware of. Both would be known in awareness. As you already are aware of everything.

 

 

"The ultimate answer", or enlightenment, is this simple, everyday, normal knowing/being aware of whatever the situation seems to be, whether it is knowing the truth or not knowing the truth, being enlightened or not being enlightened.

 

Thanks . So how exactly is the fact that I'm aware of whether I know my fate or not actually affect my fate ?

If my fate is let's say nothing ..I will die and get lights out and sleep for eternity in my grave ..that's one possibility.  Let's assume its true and I'm aware of that . My awareness of that makes me depressed because I love life and I don't want to die forever. Do you get my point? 

[Phil]

@Someone here

Life is apparent, while aliveness is appearing, thus death is illusory (birth as well). 

The belief in death is contingent on the belief in life, and beliefs are the overlooking of feeling, which is the aliveness sought in, concepts (like life, death, birth, etc -♾️). 

 

Loss is a concept met with the guidance of grief & despair. 

 

“Being alive” is akin to “my awareness” and or “what I’m aware of”.

 

“My awareness of that makes me depressed because I love life and I don’t want to die forever”…. Is a jumbled mess of identity confusion. No offense 😅 

 

You are awareness. There is no my of “my” awareness. That’s the separate self of thoughts. 

As there is no my awareness, it is not possible that a my awareness… makes me depressed. 

Of course, awareness would be, is, aware of the thought, “my awareness”. 

That “me” is also the separate self of thoughts. A thought about a finite self which could be asserted on. 

The “I” of I love life is also the separate self of thoughts. The “one” separate of, and which loves, life. 

The “I” of I don’t want to die forever is also the sep self of thoughts. The “one” that is alive, in the sense there is my awareness, my life (duality). 

 

The is no such thing as a self which dies in reality. The thoughts can meditatively come to rest, unfettering awareness. Clarity. The Light. The truth.

 

Not of thoughts or concepts (all appearance). 

 

Souls, liver of lives, etc, etc, etc, all monkey mind. Ego having awareness by the balls. And not in the pleasant way no one is imagining now. 

[Joseph Maynor]

I can say this -- if you want to suffer in life, build up a house of cards in terms of philosophical theory, cling to the same theory for years, protect/defend it at all costs, never admit it's wrong in any way shape or form, and turn into a bitter, angry conservative person after years of it getting attacked from every direction.

Edited May 28 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

7 hours ago, Someone here said:

Not knowing is cool ..but you are here..existence is here ..the big existential questions are here ..and you won't be in serenity unless you have definitive answer to them .

My feeling is that we're meant to move in and out of things.  It's like we need to integrate new things and re-integrate old things with a twist.  So whatever theory we clothe ourself in at the moment is a kind of play.  We're role playing.  We're feeling into it.  And then we leave it behind and explore something else.  And then maybe we come back to things/places and put on that clothing again -- and it's like reuniting and it feels so good!  This is my theory.

Edited May 28 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

8 hours ago, ivankiss said:

You won't find the answer in thinking. In laughter, maybe.

 

This is exactly what the serious, intellectual, philosophical people have in their shadow -- and vice versa for the jokester.  Maybe the answer lies somewhere in the middle between truth and fun.  Maybe there's a little bit of fun in truth and a little bit of truth in fun.  Zen is a great vehicle/place to integrate or re-integrate this kind of perspective.  Every once in a while I put the Zen clothing on and I love that.  There will come a time when I will go back in this direction for a while and eat from this bowl until I'm full.

Edited May 28 by Joseph Maynor

[Someone here]

@Phil bro..I'm getting sick and tired of you handwaving every single thing into "thought of sep self". It's like you are trolling or something. Or That you have no clue but you enjoy playing the" know it all" guru . 

To me it seems that the only way to know what death is or what comes after death is by actually dying. You can't know it unless you experience it .is that correct ? Can you become conscious of what death is without needing to commit suicide ?

I'm talking actual physical death not some flimsy ego death or whatnot .

For all the talk of 'sep self'..you seem to be interpreting death solely from the perspective of the self.  Of course from the perspective of the self death is an illusion which never happens .. after all how can the self even observe its own death if it isn't around to see it?  It's like trying to touch your own shadow or catch a fart in the wind .

30 minutes ago, Phil said:

Life is apparent, while aliveness is appearing, thus death is illusory (birth as well). 

The belief in death is contingent on the belief in life, and beliefs are the overlooking of feeling, which is the aliveness sought in, concepts (like life, death, birth, etc -♾️). 

So life and death don't exist basically?!  Yeah you are losing touch with reality if you really truly honestly think that . Its not gonna end up well for you brother if you continue with this rhetoric.

"Life is apparent thus death is contingent on belief of life . " 

DUDE ..wake the hell up already and quit this whole nonsense . If you are serious about whats being said then don't say the expression "my life " or "me "or "balls " ever again otherwise you will be conflating the absolute with the practical forever and nobody can help you out of this trap because I know you will continue calling every word I said as belief and thoughts.  You spend money on building this website and forum . Make it worth it .

Sorry for attacking you personally and for the steam in my language...but this felt like honest expression. 

[Someone here]

39 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

My feeling is that we're meant to move in and out of things.  It's like we need to integrate new things and re-integrate old things with a twist.  So whatever theory we clothe ourself in at the moment is a kind of play.  We're role playing.  We're feeling into it.  And then we leave it behind and explore something else.  And then maybe we come back to things/places and put on that clothing again -- and it's like reuniting and it feels so good!  This is my theory.

So what happens when you die again  ?

 

[Joseph Maynor]

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

So what happens when you die again  ?

 

 

What happens when I die is the deepest philosophical/spiritual question.  I can give answers to this but at the same time I'm not 100% certain that any answer is correct as to corresponding with the nature of reality.  There's a lot of assumptions packed into this.  One of the key assumptions is the story of self that is presupposed.  What am I?  It seems like I need to resolve that question before I can foresee as to what it's like for me to die.  All this stuff seems kinda unstable for me.
 

 

 

Edited May 28 by Joseph Maynor

[Someone here]

@Joseph Maynor it's simple.."who am I? " Well ...  you are exactly what you appear to be . A human being made of flesh &bones. 

When you die the body stops functioning and decays in the soil .

Is there a soul?or an eternal component of the human that survives death ?and if so ..then to what exactly? 

[Phil]

@Someone here

Awareness, appearing. 

 

 

 

 

[Someone here]

@Phil I'm sorry .i was a bit rude . I just don't resonate with your analysis. That's all.god bless  ya .

[Blessed2]

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

Thanks . So how exactly is the fact that I'm aware of whether I know my fate or not actually affect my fate ?

If my fate is let's say nothing ..I will die and get lights out and sleep for eternity in my grave ..that's one possibility.  Let's assume its true and I'm aware of that . My awareness of that makes me depressed because I love life and I don't want to die forever. Do you get my point? 

 

I'm saying the "ultimate fate" you're looking for is the awareness that's already unconditionally aware of whatever is arising. It's the good news. You literally don't need to know anything. There is no need for any knowledge or answers for existential and metaphysical questions to be found. Awareness is aware of both not knowing and knowing the answer to these questions.

 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Blessed2 said:

There is no need for any knowledge or answers for existential and metaphysical questions to be found. Awareness is aware of both not knowing and knowing the answer to these questions.

OK whatever..awareness is aware of both the answers and the non-answers ..that's obvious as hell.. 

My question: how do you jump from this premise into the premises that I don't have to have the answer ?

"Awareness is aware of knowing and not knowing ..Therefore there is no difference between the two " how are these two connected? 

Edited May 28 by Someone here

[Joseph Maynor]

13 minutes ago, Someone here said:

OK whatever..awareness is aware of both the answers and the non-answers ..that's obvious as hell.. 

My question: how do you jump from this premise into the premises that I don't have to have the answer ?

"Awareness is aware of knowing and not knowing ..Therefore there is no difference between the two " how are these two connected? 

In ego it's always going to be crocodiles attacking other crocodiles.  And all of us are crocodiles.  It's the game of I need to win.  Notice this happens even in spirituality.  Eventually some crocodile is going to come and bite my head off too.  Nobody is spared from this.  This is samsara.  But we can come to learn to love the crocodile who bit our head off and realize this is inevitable.  Nobody is spared from this.  It's the game of for me to win someone else has to lose.

Edited May 28 by Joseph Maynor

[Someone here]

@Joseph Maynor crocodile talk again 🤣 you've been keeping a close eye on actualized.org and Leo recently lol 

[Blessed2]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

My question: how do you jump from this premise into the premises that I don't have to have the answer ?

 

Because the awareness that is aware of both knowing & not knowing is the only constant. Truth cannot be something that comes and goes, or changes. The awareness or knowingness which is aware or knows that you do not know this or that is the unchanging truth you are looking for.

 

 

You'd probably call the state of knowing the ultimate truth of existence (or what happens after death for example) "enlightenment", right? Would you attach these qualities to the concept of being enlightened?

 

Imagine holding a ball which other side is painted blue and the other side red.

 

Blue side is like 'not knowing the ultimate truth of existence'. Red side is like 'knowing the ultimate truth of existence'.

 

Now turn the imaginary ball so that you see the blue side. Note that the blue side is known. Very simply, awareness is aware of the blue sided ball.

 

Then turn the ball around so that you see the red side. Same thing, the red side is known. Awareness is aware of the red sided ball.

 

The ball turns around and what awareness is aware of seems to change.

 

But the being aware does not change. The knowingness does not change. It is constant.

 

Similarly, 'not being enlightened' may seem to change to 'being enlightened'.

 

But the knowingness/awareness of 'not being enlightened' and 'being enlightened' is constant, always the same, and already present now.

 

That everyday changeless knowingness of being aware is the unchanging unconditional truth. This is the end of existential seeking.

 

[Phil]

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Phil bro..I'm getting sick and tired of you handwaving every single thing into "thought of sep self". It's like you are trolling or something. Or That you have no clue but you enjoy playing the" know it all" guru . 

This is denial of what’s being said. 

 

A thought about a self is, a thought about a self. 

There’s nothing complicated being said here. 

Simple, straightforward and self-evident. 

 

Awareness is directly aware of thought, and of perception. 

Thought is not perceived, perception is not thinkable. 

 

Conflation: the merging of two or more sets of information, texts, ideas, etc. into one.

 

What’s being said is not a theory, concept or teaching. (Twisting, conflating).

It’s a pointing to reality, to direct experience. (Untwisting, unconflating).

 

Spiritual brainwashing would be “perception is thinkable, thought is perceivable… there is an absolute and a relative… there is conflation… and you are conflating”. 

 

Whereas direct experience can be inspected directly and is not contingent on belief / believing anyone or anything at all. 

 

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

To me it seems that the only way to know what death is or what comes after death is by actually dying. You can't know it unless you experience it .is that correct ?

Can you become conscious of what death is without needing to commit suicide ?

I'm talking actual physical death not some flimsy ego death or whatnot .

No. That would be delusion. Insanity. That is not at all what’s being said. 

Obviously the claim is false as the one know said to know is the same one said to have died. 

 

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

For all the talk of 'sep self'..you seem to be interpreting death solely from the perspective of the self.

That there aren’t unicorns is not an interpretation about unicorns. It’s reality. 

That there are unicorns is an interpretation about unicorns.  

 

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

  Of course from the perspective of the self death is an illusion which never happens .. after all how can the self even observe its own death if it isn't around to see it?  It's like trying to touch your own shadow or catch a fart in the wind .

There is only one perspective in reality, within which many interpretations can appear. 

 

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

So life and death don't exist basically?! 

Interpretations appear. 

 

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

Yeah you are losing touch with reality if you really truly honestly think that . It’s not gonna end up well for you brother if you continue with this rhetoric.

“It” can’t “end up well or not well”; it’s already well. 

Put feeling / well-being first. 

Simple, straightforward. 

 

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

"Life is apparent thus death is contingent on belief of life . " 

Yes, life as a thing = you, awareness are a thing, “the other thing” which is “not life”.

Awareness is not some thing.

Infinite can not know finite. 

 

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

DUDE ..wake the hell up already and quit this whole nonsense . If you are serious about whats being said then don't say the expression "my life " or "me "or "balls " ever again otherwise you will be conflating the absolute with the practical forever and nobody can help you out of this trap because I know you will continue calling every word I said as belief and thoughts.  You spend money on building this website and forum . Make it worth it .

Sorry for attacking you personally and for the steam in my language...but this felt like honest expression. 

The absolute and the practical and the conflating of is another apparent interpretation, believed, a personal belief, based on a sep self, “the knower”, which knows there is an absolute and the practical and conflation. Spiritual brainwashing as it were. 

 

The separate self of thoughts, is a belief in “the one” which knows. That “one” is not found in perception, in direct experience.

 

Dreamboard: “honesty, sincerity, integrity”. 

[Jane]

11 hours ago, Someone here said:

after all how can the self even observe its own death if it isn't around to see it?

 

 My awareness of that makes me depressed because I love life and I don't want to die forever.

Not only can the self not observe it's own death, it cannot observe it's own birth either.

 

So who exactly is born - who dies?

 

The self may even be just another word for this 'observing awareness'  or ( Witness) - And  while the 'body' can be observed as an image seen within the seer, the observer of the seen body cannot be observed; because the observer doesn't have an image.  And yet, an image of 'me' in the form of a body, does apparently seem to appear to this 'imageless witness'  -  But then there is never two things there in this self reflective recognition. There is no separation between the  seer and the seen as the seer and the seen are inseparably one thing ONLY.

 

There's awareness of depression, and there's awareness of the fear of death because of this direct experience that is the awareness of being alive... But where is the 'YOU' that feels a fear and a depression before you were born and after you die? Maybe there's just 'fear and depression' (sensations) arising and falling away and no 'someone' which is just a 'thought' to claim ownership of them?

 

Maybe it's not a 'someone' who is the one who is aware and knowing of every thought, and sensation. Maybe a 'someone' is the 'thought'

that is being awared along with all the sensations. These 'thought things' are temporal appearances of awareness and NOT the actual AWARENESS itself. 

 

Awareness can't be a thought, or a sensation, or an image, but whatever awareness is, it doesn't need the appearance of transient things like feelings, and sensations, like depression and fear for it to BE.... as proved in deep dreamless sleep when  there is no thought of a 'someone' being present while  there is still 'thoughtless presence'  In other words, in the nondual reality of life, there's only life life-ing. Life is neither dead nor alive except in this conception, in the known word itself, which seems to split nondual reality into duality, since life cannot experience non-experience. Non-dual simply means ONE appearing as the many.

 

This one awareness is appearing as the many. But how can this one awareness know it lives and dies? It knows in it's own conception, it can know the body, but it never know the knower of the body.  And while the body may look as though it is dead, and lifeless to awareness, this knowledge  always requires an awareness to make this birth or death known; by looking upon what appears to be the aliveness or lifelessness of bodies.

 

But remember, bodies are thoughts in awareness, not awareness actual.

 

And so I am taking about this one WITNESS of other bodies being born and dying, that can never witness it's own bodily birth and death, because this one witness is infinite, without beginning or end.  Only bodies have a beginning and ending as witnessed by awareness.

Bodies arise and fall in Awareness....Awareness is infinite, and does not arise and fall in finite bodies, because any thing finite is simply an illusory appearance within what is always and ever this infinite awareness of being. And that is what's known as the Nondual self.

 

 

[ConsciousDreamer666]

On 5/27/2024 at 7:18 PM, Someone here said:

Where will my soul reside at the very end of it all if there is an end to existence in the first place? 

here, but here is nowhere.