Are other persons experience real?

[ConsciousDreamer666]

I cant seem to Accept the fact that other persons have an experience. See, before It was no issue because i thought there something such as a person and a biological thing perceiving the material world. I thought, sure, this is me, and there are the others biological beings perceiving. Each biological machine is different sure.

 

But now...is clear to me that there are no biological beings perceiving stuff. There is just consciousness, passing through every being, and in that, creating an experience of individuality.

 

So basically i can not handle how is It possible that there are ACTUALLY other beings experiencing the same i am experiencing (an "illusory pov"). 

 

Infinity Love, Infinity dream. It can not be possible. No way. No fucking way.

[Orb]

Is your own "experience" real?

 

What is experience? 

 

How do you know you are experiencing anything?

[Phil]

The one pov is apparent, the separate self is illusory.  

[Mandy]

What is being a person or character if not an experience? You put on a VR headset and have a VR experience, what do you think your actual head and hands and body are? How is seeing your hands different from seeing someone else's? Why the assertion that my experience is actual, but others aren't? Knowing that it is all you is beginning of true compassion and love, suffering is not that. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Are other persons' experience real?  Yes and no.  Notice that this answer is not needed too though.  Being gets along just fine without this answer being resolved.  Answers are both useful and useless.  Notice that when you cock the mind back to try to dissect experience that that's a stance on experience.  It's like trying to pick apart a tapestry and find things and relations.  It's fine to do this, but we're assuming this gives us a more objective perspective rather than just a different perspective.  Awareness is there the whole time, unmoved.  It's a belief that we can crack the code of Awareness through contemplation.  But even framing it this way is a stance and too conceptual.  It's good to realize thinking is a stance and not the only one that we can take toward experience, awareness, consciousness, being whatever you want to code it as.  It does set up a more playful attitude because you realize truth is a stance and it's not the only stance you can have toward experience.  You start to find other ways to frame experience or take a stance toward experience outside of intellect.

Edited January 20 by Joseph Maynor

[ConsciousDreamer666]

19 hours ago, Phil said:

The one pov is apparent, the separate self is illusory.  

Where is the border or separation "line" between one POV and another?

22 hours ago, Orb said:

Is your own "experience" real?

 

What is experience? 

 

How do you know you are experiencing anything?

Where is the border or separation "line" between one POV and another?

19 hours ago, Mandy said:

What is being a person or character if not an experience? You put on a VR headset and have a VR experience, what do you think your actual head and hands and body are? How is seeing your hands different from seeing someone else's? Why the assertion that my experience is actual, but others aren't? Knowing that it is all you is beginning of true compassion and love, suffering is not that. 

Where is the border or separation "line" between one POV and another?

19 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Are other persons' experience real?  Yes and no.  Notice that this answer is not needed too though.  Being gets along just fine without this answer being resolved.  Answers are both useful and useless.  Notice that when you cock the mind back to try to dissect experience that that's a stance on experience.  It's like trying to pick apart a tapestry and find things and relations.  It's fine to do this, but we're assuming this gives us a more objective perspective rather than just a different perspective.  Awareness is there the whole time, unmoved.  It's a belief that we can crack the code of Awareness through contemplation.  But even framing it this way is a stance and too conceptual.  It's good to realize thinking is a stance and not the only one that we can take toward experience, awareness, consciousness, being whatever you want to code it as.  It does set up a more playful attitude because you realize truth is a stance and it's not the only stance you can have toward experience.  You start to find other ways to frame experience or take a stance toward experience outside of intellect.

 

Where is the border or separation "line" between one POV and another?

[Phil]

1 minute ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

Where is the border or separation "line" between one POV and another?

There is only one pov. 

[Orb]

13 minutes ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

Where is the border or separation "line" between one POV and another?

Where is the border or separation "line" between one POV and another?

Where is the border or separation "line" between one POV and another?

 

Where is the border or separation "line" between one POV and another?

You keep on questioning the boundary between one's experience/POV with another's. 

 

I'm asking you to investigate if you even have an experience/pov in the first place.

Edited January 20 by Orb

[Phil]

@ConsciousDreamer666

In what way or ways does it seem like there is another pov?

Sharing that will shed clarity. 

[ConsciousDreamer666]

32 minutes ago, Phil said:

There is only one pov. 

If we agree that "my POV" is not my pov because It doesn't have an end, ok there is Only one POV 

 

But perception wise, i dont have access to seeing Tower Effeil now, and some "other povs" (which are not really "other", rather, percepcion limited) that are in france might have access right now .

 

You see what i mean?

31 minutes ago, Orb said:

You keep on questioning the boundary between one's experience/POV with another's. 

 

I'm asking you to investigate if you even have an experience/pov in the first place.

There is definetely an experience of Life. Maybe is not PERSONAL, Ok. But there is an experience. I call that a POV.

15 minutes ago, Phil said:

@ConsciousDreamer666

In what way or ways does it seem like there is another pov?

Because mentally i imagine It?

 

If we say solipsism is not real, the question of what or how are other peoples experience naturally comes Up.

[Phil]

24 minutes ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

If we agree that "my POV" is not my pov because It doesn't have an end, ok there is Only one POV 

What is the relevance of not having an end?

Does pov have a beginning?

Is pov a thing / possession?

 

24 minutes ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

 

But perception wise, i dont have access to seeing Tower Effeil now, and some "other povs" (which are not really "other", rather, percepcion limited) that are in france might have access right now .

 

You see what i mean?

Yes.

 

If we label perception a tower or France, does that make perception no longer perception, and now a tower or France?

 

24 minutes ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

Because mentally i imagine It?

If that’s the case, what happens when you stop mentally imagining that there is another pov? 

 

24 minutes ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

 

If we say solipsism is not real, the question of what or how are other peoples experience naturally comes Up.

Solipsism is real as appearing thought(s), like Mormonism, Jainism, banana & sheep. 

What is your experience, such that others have an experience?

[Orb]

15 minutes ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

If we agree that "my POV" is not my pov because It doesn't have an end, ok there is Only one POV 

 

But perception wise, i dont have access to seeing Tower Effeil now, and some "other povs" (which are not really "other", rather, percepcion limited) that are in france might have access right now .

 

You see what i mean?

There is definetely an experience of Life. Maybe is not PERSONAL, Ok. But there is an experience. I call that a POV.

Because mentally i imagine It?

 

If we say solipsism is not real, the question of what or how are other peoples experience naturally comes Up.

The "truth" that is unveiled after investigating this is so simple yet profound that I suspect you can't believe it's that simple deep down.

[Alexander]

1 minute ago, Orb said:

The "truth" that is unveiled after investigating this is so simple yet profound that I suspect you can't believe it's that simple deep down.

Yeah Truth is simple.There is only my experience because in direct experience I can't become conscious of other experiences.I am alone only having experience.

[Phil]

1 minute ago, Alexander said:

Yeah Truth is simple.There is only my experience because in direct experience I can't become conscious of other experiences.I am alone only having experience.

What is experience?

What makes experience yours?

How does consciousness become conscious?

[Orb]

17 minutes ago, Alexander said:

Yeah Truth is simple.There is only my experience because in direct experience I can't become conscious of other experiences.I am alone only having experience.

Again, this is based on an assumption that there is experience in the first place, yet you haven't investigated what experience is.

Edited January 20 by Orb

[ConsciousDreamer666]

3 hours ago, Phil said:

 

Is pov a thing / possession?

 

Good question @Phil

I was wondering... if Consciousness is experiencing all 'POVs' at once, then this POV, is not more real or more important than any other... Yet, for the ego, it is 'the real one'.

 

Yet For Awareness this pov is not more real or more personal than a 'strangers' POV. But for the ego, it is created an hallucination of 'personality'.

 

And... that would explain why´s why my ego sometimes ask himself  "why I am experiencing as awareness a man and not that woman?" The question for awareness of course doesn´t make sense. ...

 

3 hours ago, Phil said:

 

If that’s the case, what happens when you stop mentally imagining that there is another pov? 

That I feel alone. I know the drill 'don´t belief thoughts, blabla', but truly I would like to know if am united with the rest of reality or not. I just don´t want to enjoy peacefulness of mind (not attaching to thoughts), I want to go further and verify unity is real. 

 

3 hours ago, Orb said:

The "truth" that is unveiled after investigating this is so simple yet profound that I suspect you can't believe it's that simple deep down.

Hundreds of Hours of meditation and spiritual practice, dozens of gruelling mind broken psychedelic trips, ...etc and still the ego hasn´t gone...No, cmon, it can not be 'that simple'. Nobody believes that. Even sages took years and years of spiritual practice to get somewhere real. 

 

Is your experience of life of absolute unity with the rest of reality right now? Because that´s what am I aiming towards. If solipsism is not true, then, let´s go, I want to experience true non duality. If you guys say other aren´t a cupboard cut out, then I want to verify they are literally me. 

Edited January 20 by ConsciousDreamer666

[Orb]

@ConsciousDreamer666

 

The "you" that wants to "experience" the Nondual nature Is precisely the one obscuring it. 

 

Just don't believe the self referential thoughts, let them pass, they aren't actually referencing any self anyway. 

 

As Paul Hedderman said, it would be like a drop of water wanting to become the ocean but at the same time it wants to experience the ocean as the drop. 

 

In other words, you will never experience enlightenment. If enlightenment is the absence of self how can a self be there to attain/experience it?

 

There is only the ocean, there's only the belief that you're a drop of water. The ocean is Absolute. 

 

It really is that simple. And of course the work like meditation, therapy, yoga, TRE, etc. is also helpful for sure!

Edited January 20 by Orb

[ConsciousDreamer666]

37 minutes ago, Orb said:

@ConsciousDreamer666

 

 

In other words, you will never experience enlightenment. If enlightenment is the absence of self how can a self be there to attain/experience it?

 

Good point. I agree with most of your points, but there is something missing. Awareness should definetely be able to verify unity. In my case there are moments of dissolution of self, but ego comes back. Why? Because I believe the dissolution is not total, is not clear, is not truly clear.

 

@Orb If there is clarity, if you truly become everything and verify it for yourself (as Awareness, not as the ego self), then you can imagine... there would be absolutely no problem in 'activating' this dissolution at will, and engaging with mind/body when is needed (for menial tasks, work, driving, talking, etc...).

 

But since there is doubt, there is not real absolute perception, there is not direct recognition, is just a mud of pseudo openings and dissolutions, then still questions comes up. So don´t judge me for asking questions, you guys love to dismiss absolutely every damn question with the answer 'just let go of the thoughts!'

 

When in my opinion, you should recognise the technique or approach 'let go of the thoughts' is not really being useful. Is not powerful enough. Is not explosive enough for clear awakening. It might be useful to lift people from depression or anxiety episodes to a minimum of well being and mindfulness. But is definetely is not working for most of us for clear and permanent liberation.

 

I just think Is just doesn´t cover everything that is needed for clear realisation. And I feel you guys are not acknowledging this facts. 

 

 

Edited January 21 by ConsciousDreamer666

[Orb]

13 minutes ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

Good point. I agree with most of your points, but there is something missing. Awareness should definetely be able to verify unity. In my case there are moments of dissolution of self, but ego comes back. Why? Because I believe the dissolution is not total, is not clear, is not truly clear.

 

@Orb If there is clarity, if you truly become everything and verify it for yourself (as Awareness, not as the ego self), then you can imagine... there would be absolutely no problem in 'activating' this dissolution at will, and engaging with mind/body when is needed (for menial tasks, work, driving, talking, etc...).

 

But since there is doubt, there is not real absolute perception, there is not direct recognition, is just a mud of pseudo openings and dissolutions, then still questions comes up. So don´t judge me for asking questions, you guys love to dismiss absolutely every damn question with the answer 'just let go of the thoughts!'

 

When in my opinion, you should recognise the technique or approach 'let go of the thoughts' is not really being useful. Is not powerful enough. Is not explosive enough for clear awakening. It might be useful to lift people from depression or anxiety episodes to a minimum of well being and mindfulness. But is definetely is not working for most of us for clear and permanent liberation.

 

I just think Is just doesn´t cover everything that is needed for clear realisation. And I feel you guys are not acknowledging this facts. 

 

 

I was referring to the belief that you will or must experience enlightenment, I was saying basically that will never happen. But I get it, you want to see for yourself and you will. Well, "you" won't but you know what I mean 😊.

 

I did also mention that all practices like TRE, prayer, meditation, therapy, etc. are helpful still. 

 

I don't at all experience any beliefs or discord about this experience being only "mine" or about others experience. That belief once came up a while ago and just fell away along the path. It doesn't mean my heads glowing and I'm this wise "enlightened" being, I just don't suffer from those beliefs anymore. Things get much simpler, and it is awesome don't get me wrong. 

[Phil]

1 hour ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

Good question @Phil

I was wondering... if Consciousness is experiencing all 'POVs' at once, then this POV, is not more real or more important than any other... Yet, for the ego, it is 'the real one'.

By consciousness all that is meant is the consciousness right-now / already conscious. 

In accordance with consciousness, is there an all points of view, or one pov? 

 

1 hour ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

 

Yet For Awareness this pov is not more real or more personal than a 'strangers' POV.

Who or what is saying “for awareness”?

Is that a comparison of points of view?

 

1 hour ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

But for the ego, it is created an hallucination of 'personality'.

Who or what is saying “for the ego”? 

Awareness?

Is awareness aware of ego?

 

1 hour ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

 

And... that would explain why´s why my ego sometimes ask himself  "why I am experiencing as awareness a man and not that woman?" The question for awareness of course doesn´t make sense. ...

Who or what’s ego? 

Awareness?

Who or what knows there are men & women?

Awareness?

 

1 hour ago, ConsciousDreamer666 said:

 

That I feel alone. I know the drill 'don´t belief thoughts, blabla', but truly I would like to know if am united with the rest of reality or not. I just don´t want to enjoy peacefulness of mind (not attaching to thoughts), I want to go further and verify unity is real. 

Who or what would like to know?

Is that who or what not aware?

 

How does holding a condition or contingency reveal that which is unconditional?

 

Why not directly inspect for any actual separation right now?

How exactly are experiences supposed to lead to the present?  

 

Who or what feels?