What do you Think about Guns?

[Phil]

@Tarak

Would you agree there is an experience of laws, and therein what’s outlined as legal & illegal, while there is never any experience of right & wrong?

[Tarak]

Just now, Phil said:

@Tarak

Would you agree there is an experience of laws, and therein what’s outlined as legal & illegal, while there is never any experience of right & wrong?

They are both experiences, although laws is a more intellectual one and right and wrong come from my guts 🙂

[Phil]

@Tarak

Does everyone’s guts produce the exact same right & wrong?

[Tarak]

41 minutes ago, Phil said:

@Tarak

Does everyone’s guts produce the exact same right & wrong?

Probably not exact the same, but I am quite certain there is a universal version of right  and wrong that applies to every living being.

 

That said: the majority of people has so many beliefs that they trust ideas more than their guts, which is the first step in being unable to discern right from wrong.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Tarak

[Phil]

14 minutes ago, Tarak said:

Probably not exact the same, but I am quite certain there is a universal version of right  and wrong that applies to every living being.

If there’s a universal version of right and wrong why do people argue & disagree about what’s right & wrong and resort to harming each other?

 

14 minutes ago, Tarak said:

 

That said: the majority of people has so many beliefs that they trust ideas more than their guts, which is the first step in being unable to discern right from wrong.

Is that based on the assumption that there is, right & wrong?

Have you ever actually experienced people’s beliefs?

[Tarak]

7 minutes ago, Phil said:

If there’s a universal version of right and wrong why do people argue & disagree about what’s right & wrong and resort to harming each other?

 

Is that based on the assumption that there is, right & wrong?

Have you ever actually experienced people’s beliefs?

 

People mostly argue and disagree because they are confused. And they are confused because they have beliefs they learned from the environment they were raised in.
We can learn a lot from predatory mammals. They hunt when they need food, but don't kill when not hungry. There are even countless sightings of wild animals helping other species in need, they normally prey on. The killing itself is not wrong, the reason for the killing can be though.

 

I see where you are going. In a way right and wrong are indeed nothing more than an assumption. But at the same time... When I do something that helps another, both me and the other feel good. That for me is doing the right thing. When I do something bad to another, we both feel horrible and that is doing the wrong thing.

 

I haven't experience directly other people's beliefs, but I experience their expression of their beliefs. Heck, it was because of that expression that I lost myself for decades.

[Phil]

3 minutes ago, Tarak said:

We can learn a lot from predatory mammals. They hunt when they need food, but don't kill when not hungry. There are even countless sightings of wild animals helping other species in need, they normally prey on. The killing itself is not wrong, the reason for the killing can be though.

Does the human condition extend to animals?

 

6 minutes ago, Tarak said:

I see where you are going. In a way right and wrong are indeed nothing more than an assumption. But at the same time... When I do something that helps another, both me and the other feel good. That for me is doing the right thing. When I do something bad to another, we both feel horrible and that is doing the wrong thing.

Isn’t it therein feeling based rather than gut? 

These might seem to be the same, but I suggest the difference is immeasurably great. 

 

7 minutes ago, Tarak said:

I haven't experience directly other people's beliefs, but I experience their expression of their beliefs. Heck, it was because of that expression that I lost myself for decades.

If you haven’t experienced that other people have beliefs, how can you be sure the expression is, an expression of?

 

9 minutes ago, Tarak said:

People mostly argue and disagree because they are confused. And they are confused because they have beliefs they learned from the environment they were raised in.

We’re beliefs learned, or was learning a belief as well?

 

 

 

 

[Tarak]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

1. Does the human condition extend to animals?

 

2. Isn’t it therein feeling based rather than gut? 

These might seem to be the same, but I suggest the difference is immeasurably great. 

 

3. If you haven’t experienced that other people have beliefs, how can you be sure the expression is, an expression of?

 

4. We’re beliefs learned, or was learning a belief as well?

 

 

 

 

1. I personally don't see a lot of difference, except for us having opposable thumbs, a larynx that gives us the ability to speak and a brain that arguable does more harm than it helps us survive 😄
2. I have autism, and have big troubles naming feelings, so I'm not sure. What I do know is that if I do something bad I feel it in my gut (like I need to puke) and when I  do something good it feels ... blissful. Both 'feelings' happen in my gut at the level of my navel.
3. The expression must come from somewhere and in the majority of cases they literally backup the expression with the relevant ideas, which are beliefs.

4. Yes, we are all beliefs learned. I'm doing my best to dissect them and not identify with them. For some beliefs that went easily, for others it'll probably never work out.
 

[Phil]

12 minutes ago, Tarak said:

1. I personally don't see a lot of difference, except for us having opposable thumbs, a larynx that gives us the ability to speak and a brain that arguable does more harm than it helps us survive 😄

One notable difference is from one there is a view of a universe. 

 

12 minutes ago, Tarak said:

2. I have autism, and have big troubles naming feelings, so I'm not sure. What I do know is that if I do something bad I feel it in my gut (like I need to puke) and when I  do something good it feels ... blissful. Both 'feelings' happen in my gut at the level of my navel.

Makes perfect sense. You’re clearly in tune with feeling. 

 

12 minutes ago, Tarak said:

3. The expression must come from somewhere and in the majority of cases they literally backup the expression with the relevant ideas, which are beliefs.

Maybe it comes from suppression, or, how the beliefs feel, rather than behaviors & actions being indicative of beliefs directly. TO use a very simple example, if I hold the belief I am unworthy, that belief is not likely to influence harmful behaviors & actions. But, if you were to tell me I’m unworthy in a provocative way, I might feel the discord of the belief, and then believe that the discordant feeling is coming from you, and then defensive behaviors & actions might be employed even to the tune of physical aggression. In such a case I would have overlooked the aggression was on my part, by overlooking the defensive was only of a belief. Which ironically, being discordant, I wouldn’t want in the first place. So I’d essentially be harming you, to defend, what I don’t want. 

 

12 minutes ago, Tarak said:

4. Yes, we are all beliefs learned. I'm doing my best to dissect them and not identify with them. For some beliefs that went easily, for others it'll probably never work out.
 

Seems to be working out perfectly. In reading what you’re saying it feels downright harmonious. 

[Tarak]

14 minutes ago, Phil said:

One notable difference is from one there is a view of a universe. 

 

Makes perfect sense. You’re clearly in tune with feeling. 

 

Maybe it comes from suppression, or, how the beliefs feel, rather than behaviors & actions being indicative of beliefs directly. TO use a very simple example, if I hold the belief I am unworthy, that belief is not likely to influence harmful behaviors & actions. But, if you were to tell me I’m unworthy in a provocative way, I might feel the discord of the belief, and then believe that the discordant feeling is coming from you, and then defensive behaviors & actions might be employed even to the tune of physical aggression. In such a case I would have overlooked the aggression was on my part, by overlooking the defensive was only of a belief. Which ironically, being discordant, I wouldn’t want in the first place. So I’d essentially be harming you, to defend, what I don’t want. 

 

Seems to be working out perfectly. In reading what you’re saying it feels downright harmonious. 

 

 I see your point and yeah, I guess one belief can be expressed in different ways depending how you feel/think/... That said: I still hold firm to my 'belief' that there is something like right and wrong, good and bad, love and hate... Guess I'm not ready for non-dualism 😄

[Phil]

@Tarak

No one ever is. 🙂 🍻