Do stage blue religions give you a soul

[Rose]

Something I’ve been wondering. Cultures that never go through religious blue stage - how do they transition from red to orange? 
 

When I think about stage blue, it’s not only cold hearted/factual rules and regulations that it brought to people, but with introduction of religion, and thus the guilt and shame it uses, it makes an individual more aware of the feelings of the “other”, it wakes up some elements of empathy in people. 
 

This feels like the first stages of “waking of the soul”, where one goes from very little awareness of the interests of the “other” to being guilted and shamed into being aware of how their actions impact the other. Guilt and shame play on emotions, not just a logical set of rules to follow.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Rose

[Blessed2]

28 minutes ago, Rose said:

Something I’ve been wondering. Cultures that never go through religious blue stage - how do they transition from red to orange? 

 

Do you have an example of such society?

[Rose]

2 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

 

Do you have an example of such society?

Parts of Russia, China 

[Blessed2]

1 minute ago, Rose said:

Parts of Russia, China 

 

What comes to mind for me, also fascist Germany and USSR.

 

I don't think they really transition. Nazi Germany, USSR and China are all examples of ideology with some orange themes but really governed by red / dawn blue standards.

 

Nazis had their whole race theories and communists had/have social and economical theories etc. These are "scientific" materialist ideologies. Strong subject-object, observer-observed ideas. They were developed during the dawn and spread of stage orange in european philosophical, academic, artistic etc. circles.

 

Both were also kind of counter-acts for the rise of industrial bourgeoisie and capitalist class system. And the development of technology and scientific method. So I'd say they are deeply connected to stage orange, however, missing the actual essence of orange.

 

Maybe it's like red/blue trying to integrate into a world where orange is coming online strong. They don't really integrate or move to orange, but sort of cope with it.

[Rose]

@Blessed2 what do you think about religious aspect of stage blue needed to “wake up” the soul? 
 

I think the religious aspect of stage blue is what transitions a “soulless” individualistic red into a somewhat “soulful” individualistic orange. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Rose

[Reena]

I think the only state blue religion that makes some difference to me is either Christianity or something more introverted like Mormonism. Funnily and strangely I had a dream last night about it where I was a part of a stage blue cult and it felt very peaceful.

 

One aspect in this dream that was very strange and coincidentally very relevant to this topic was that the people who were a part of this strict religious system somehow were less cold hearted, more empathetic and although the system was strict, there was a family feeling keeping everyone together. It felt weird as though humans need some kind of a religion to maintain a sense of community and purpose. 

 

Nobody demonized me in the system and it offered a sense of belonging along with security and it never felt like they would abandon me. 

 

Just a dream but it was insightful about deep stage blue religious culture which is not as bad as it is portrayed by the media. 

 

 

[Blessed2]

1 hour ago, Rose said:

@Blessed2 what do you think about religious aspect of stage blue needed to “wake up” the soul? 
 

I think the religious aspect of stage blue is what transitions a “soulless” individualistic red into a somewhat “soulful” individualistic orange. 

 

I'm really not an expert on spiral dynamics so I might really say total nonsense here. But you might be misunderstanding stage red a bit.

 

There is bonding and empathy etc. on stage red. There is spirituality and "meaning".

 

What happens moving to stage blue is that the spirituality and "meaning" is kind of projected onto outside universal, objective authority; a god, church, a holy book, code of ethics. The subject-object duality becomes more stark moving to blue. "I am here; universal truth is there."

 

Whereas red is perhaps more "I am here; you are there."

 

On stage blue the emperor is God's manager. On stage red the emperor is god.

 

So yeah maybe this way it could be said that blue is the beginning of an individual at play with objective & universal. Maybe that's the "soul" you're looking for.

 

Really recommend checking out the TV series Narcos btw. I think it's a great representation of stage red.

[Rose]

34 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

There is bonding and empathy etc. on stage red. There is spirituality and "meaning".

 

I am not talking about spirituality and meaning.
 

What would cause stage red to feel guilt, for example?

 

That being said, even though there obviously is empathy in red, no one said it was completely binary and non existent there, it’s greatly increased with stage blue introduction of religion.

 

For example, in stage red, I feel empathy towards my sister, so I will murder anyone who hurts her. In stage blue, I feel empathy for my sister, but I also can’t murder people who hurt her because they are also humans. 

 

34 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

Really recommend checking out the TV series Narcos btw. I think it's a great representation of stage red.

I think that stage red person in the modern western world has traces of blue in them, I don’t think it’s pure red here. The culture is soaked in centuries of religious indoctrination.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Rose

[Rose]

2 hours ago, Blessed2 said:

USSR

In many USSR countries people were secretly going to church. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Rose

[Mandy]

(For anyone who doesn't know what this conversation is in reference to, it's this, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics.)

 

Spiral dynamics is an observance of a pattern as the sense of self expands and evolves. It does not necessarily have to follow that pattern, and the observance of someone else and someone else's evolution already assumes a self, which is where the model ends, or spirals to nothing. From red to blue  sense of self expands from just utter self interest to interest in one's family, community, country, religious group, etc. The sense of other can be as strong as ever, but it's a focus in other groups, not just myself and everyone else. An unhealthy kind of self sacrifice, a willingness to suffer in order to be accepted by ones group is let go in stage orange, as what makes the individual him or herself happy is valued again. This can allow someone to follow their heart, speak up, stand up to a wrong in their group, or it can allow them to totally forsake their family and community for their own material gain. I don't see stage blue as being necessarily religious but focused on the well being and success of one separate group of people. 

[Rose]

3 hours ago, Mandy said:

I don't see stage blue as being necessarily religious but focused on the well being and success of one separate group of people. 

It’s not, there are many aspects to stage blue, one of them is religion - I don’t think spiral dynamics is comprehensive enough. 
 

I would break down stage blue into government mandated laws and order in the interests of society kind of stage blue and religion kind of stage blue. Same thing as I wouldn’t lump together things like mass entertainment, consumerism, rise of plastic surgery, etc, with things like scientific progress,  educational achievements of stage orange.

 

I want to talk about the religious part of stage blue though and cultures that never go though religious transition.
 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Rose

[Blessed2]

5 hours ago, Rose said:

What would cause stage red to feel guilt, for example?

 

Accidentally hurting or killing someone loyal and close like a friend or a family member.

 

Stage red isn't psychopathy.

 

5 hours ago, Rose said:

That being said, even though there obviously is empathy in red, no one said it was completely binary and non existent there, it’s greatly increased with stage blue introduction of religion.

 

Yeah, there's a widening circle of concern. Spiral Dynamics.

 

IMO it's not really the religion that increases the empathy. What increases it and creates religious system etc... Is the widening spiral.

 

It's not like "let's create this religion and moral code so people start behaving" but more like those two are both manifestations of blue.

 

5 hours ago, Rose said:

I think that stage red person in the modern western world has traces of blue in them, I don’t think it’s pure red here. The culture is soaked in centuries of religious indoctrination.

 

There isn't really any pure red people or societies anywhere at any time.

 

There isn't any actual stages really. If there was, we could see, taste, smell, touch, hear them. It's a way of making sense, not an actual thing.

 

See if it's helpful to flip as such:

 

This thing is stage red

 

vs.

 

Stage red manifests as this activity

[Rose]

2 hours ago, Blessed2 said:

Yeah, there's a widening circle of concern. Spiral Dynamics.

 

IMO it's not really the religion that increases the empathy. What increases it and creates religious system etc... Is the widening spiral.

 

It's not like "let's create this religion and moral code so people start behaving" but more like those two are both manifestations of blue.

The circle doesn’t just widen because it’s spiral dynamics and so it must widen to follow the concept…

 

Something about the spiral dynamics stage that is widening the circle. E.g., in blue the consciences increases due to introduction of religion. In orange the consciences increases due to rise of education. Spiral dynamics is just describing those events and what their consequences are.

 

2 hours ago, Blessed2 said:

There isn't really any pure red people or societies anywhere at any time.

 

There isn't any actual stages really. If there was, we could see, taste, smell, touch, hear them. It's a way of making sense, not an actual thing.

 

See if it's helpful to flip as such:

 

This thing is stage red

 

vs.

 

Stage red manifests as this activity

 Yes that is obvious. I watched the spiral dynamics videos too and read the book 😛

 

But what I mean is that red in the western world will be most likely mixed with blue. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Rose

[Rose]

2 hours ago, Blessed2 said:

Accidentally hurting or killing someone loyal and close like a friend or a family member.

 

Stage red isn't psychopathy.

Yes, if you hurt someone in your immediate circle it may cause you to feel guilt. However, if you hurt someone outside of your immediate circle it wouldn’t cause any concern. The term psychopathy and modern psychology are only about a 100 years old and were based off of stage blue moral compass values. I wonder if in a 100 or so years cheating on someone would be considered psychopathy.

[Blessed2]

28 minutes ago, Rose said:

in blue the consciences increases due to introduction of religion. In orange the consciences increases due to rise of education. Spiral dynamics is just describing those events and what their consequences are.

 

I'd say it's the other way.

 

Religion and circle of concern increases due to introduction of blue.

 

28 minutes ago, Rose said:

The term psychopathy and modern psychology are only about a 100 years old and were based off of stage blue moral compass values. I wonder if in a 100 or so years cheating on someone would be considered psychopathy.

 

I'm not really following anymore what this conversation is about.

 

You wondered how red moves to orange without blue. It doesn't. Orange builds on blue.

 

I feel like you just want to argue for some reason.

[Rose]

30 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

I'm not really following anymore what this conversation is about.

 

You wondered how red moves to orange without blue. It doesn't. Orange builds on blue.

 

I feel like you just want to argue for some reason.

That is not what I wondered, I wondered how does orange look like without religious aspect of blue. Since cultures who don’t have religion, often still have some other aspects of blue.

 

Many people consider China to be partially orange. Because of their love for their government and strong nationalistic pride, strong “follow the herd” mentality, gender roles - they do have stage blue aspects in their culture - BUT the part of stage blue that they are missing is religion. 

 

You stated red is not psychopathic, I said that it can be considered psychopathic since current definition of psychopathy is based off of stage blue criteria of right from wrong. I think you, like many westerners, who never lived in stage red societies, tend to romanticize red a lot.

 

I am trying to get my point/question across. 

 

I actually have a very good understanding of spiral dynamics and have been thinking about it for years. I am trying to understand this particular aspect as I’ve seen the phenomena of “skipping staged” quite often.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Rose

[Rose]

11 minutes ago, Blessed2 said:

say it's the other way.

 

Religion and circle of concern increases due to introduction of blue.

Blue is just an umbrella term lumping a series of events together.

[Phil]

On 3/6/2023 at 2:11 AM, Rose said:

Something I’ve been wondering. Cultures that never go through religious blue stage - how do they transition from red to orange? 

Soullessness. 😂 . Lots of people ‘go into’ orange without having involved themself with religion or souls. 

 

On 3/6/2023 at 2:11 AM, Rose said:

When I think about stage blue, it’s not only cold hearted/factual rules and regulations that it brought to people, but with introduction of religion, and thus the guilt and shame it uses, it makes an individual more aware of the feelings of the “other”, it wakes up some elements of empathy in people. 
 

This feels like the first stages of “waking of the soul”, where one goes from very little awareness of the interests of the “other” to being guilted and shamed into being aware of how their actions impact the other. Guilt and shame play on emotions, not just a logical set of rules to follow.

The guilt & empathy would still be felt, but not necessarily the shame. 

[Rose]

On 3/7/2023 at 4:51 PM, Phil said:

Soullessness. 😂 . Lots of people ‘go into’ orange without having involved themself with religion or souls. 

But then they would be somewhat similar to stage red then

 

On 3/7/2023 at 4:51 PM, Phil said:

The guilt & empathy would still be felt, but not necessarily the shame

But what is it about blue (that is not religion) that would wake up those feelings in them? I don’t see anything but religion aspect of blue waking up the feelings of guilt and shame to others outside of your immediate family circle. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Rose

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Rose said:

But then they would be somewhat similar to stage red then

Yes, it’s the next stage, and still very similar to red. Red is ‘it’s as simple as because the authority says so’. It’s purely top-down. No questioning, no logic applied. Blue is more ‘it’s as simple as this is what we (society) do’, more horizontal, stick with and group think like the herd and you’re safe & accepted. 

 

1 hour ago, Rose said:

But what is it about blue (that is not religion) that would wake up those feelings in them?

Guilt & empathy would be felt, maybe shame as well, but not acknowledged / recognized / ‘woken up’ as you say, and remain suppressed & ignored. Anger for example is really considered, ‘you’re an idiot’, ‘they’re wrong’ is believed, their view isn’t really considered. Blue has no ‘call’ to inspect emotions, because they’re doing what everyone / society does, and they’re ‘right’, because that’s what everyone else does / thinks.

 

1 hour ago, Rose said:

I don’t see anything but religion aspect of blue waking up the feelings of guilt and shame to others outside of your immediate family circle. 

Religion could be groupthink, doing what the family and circle does… and religion could also be more orange or green… thinking for myself, venturing out, and experiencing consideration of what others are thinkin. Recognizition of emotion starts more at orange, or from blue to orange, and sensitivity of emotion starts more at green, SD’s wise.