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I'm guessing in this analogy..the drop is the ego self ..and the ocean is the infinite self..which one has or hasn't free will?

@Alexander I know.

@Philso we are back again arguinng about the separate self 😅 ? When are we going yo make progress lol jk ? People commonly believe that they have a separate self that is fixed and unchanging, an inside core that is a me. Despite noticing that thoughts, feelings, perceptions and body sensations change every instant, it is believed that there exists a separate self that remains the same. And I understand this perfectly.. There is no independent self that is ever separate from what happens. The whole mirage of subjectivity depends upon countless conditions that are not subjective. For instance, a seer could not exist without the seen. Therefore, there is no actual seer of things. For a seer cannot itself see. In other words, a subject needs an object to be a subject. Both are inseparable, mutually arisen. This also applies to thought, emotion, perception and sensation. so my question still unanswered ..and I mentioned this point to you over and over again throughout this thread but you seemed to ignore it (not sure why ) even though it's the key point that unlocks this whole issue..is that if there is no separate self ..no thinker that thinks thoughts..no doer that do actions..then how can there be free will ,when the whole point is that free will belongs to the person (which doesn't even funking exist )???

It’s really not necessary. But I think We don’t have free will. We have something called the illusion of free will. We have the impression that our agency is independent of external forcing causes. It isn’t. It can’t be. We can show that. But for many of us, this really does not matter. Because unless you are omniscient, the actual causes and forces which shape our moment-by-moment behaviour are unknown and unknowable. From our human perspective, this illusion of free will, and bone-fide free will are pretty much the same. We make choices, we take responsibility for them ..it’s all fine. BUT. If you are one of those people who is prone to religious belief. Then the lack of free will becomes more of a problem. The religious believe that human beings were made without defect, by a perfect being who equipped us to all be perfect. In this mindset, all wrongdoing must therefore be a problem of bad choices. Sin and judgement for that sin only make sense in the context of free will. If human beings are just clouds of atoms following the rules of physics, then judgement is suddenly deeply unjust. If we demonstrate that free will is impossible, and that a god cannot reasonably assign blame to a sinful human being, the entire basis for many religions is shown to be false. So your average religious person is very much invested in the idea of free will. For them, it is a necessary fiction which holds their belief system together.

A division between two things .you might argue that there are no divisions and no separation between things found in direct experience. But to me that's just half the story . Paradoxially ..there is both duality and nonduality found in direct experience. If I present to you a good juicy steak for dinner or a pile of dog shit ..you will certainly go for the steak . You can't argue that there is no difference between the steak and the dog shit . Again I'm not trying to argue aimlessly or split hairs here .I mean I get it ..you can't draw a clear boundary between two objects in the universe because its all one unified field of consciousness. But our "wrong " perception of duality is more handy and practical when it comes to navigating our experience. So duality is an illusion..but it's a useful illusion .its good for our survival to distuingh between a steak and a shit . Me .it depends on what definition of "me " is used .I think you yourself have a confused notion of what "me " is . Sometimes you say "me " is a thought. And sometimes you say "me " is awareness or Infinite being . It kinda reminds me of the conflict between Buddhism and Hinduism about the concept of no self or anatman in Buddhism and the concept of the Self or Brahman in Hinduism. Each sentence you half-quoted was talking about a different "it ". Let me tell you I'm not satisfied with your half-quoting that you did there . So what is it ? How do you describe the nature of "choice " in one word if all the above fail to label accurately?

@Phil I watched the video . You said there Is no chooser .and no two thoughts experienced simultaneously. And that both statements "I have free will " and "I don't have free will " are apparent thoughts . Do you mean that Whether there is (choice) or is not, is a duality? Imo; I'm stuck on neti-neti. Not realizing that it's only a polar response to me previously believing that there is, in fact, free will and choice. I'm trying to prove that belief false. Which is unnecessary. should I Simply recognize the duality and don't choose sides? Remain in the center? Also ..I guess it comes from observing direct experience plus contemplating what aspects of my life I did actually choose. From birth to death.. it seems like I'm on a ride in which I'm not the driver of. For example..Did you make any choice to find and read this thread today? I guess when you analyze the moment of taking the action.. It turns out there is no order or reason behind our thoughts and actions. It's all so random and chaotic. It also has to do with the illusion of the "chooser". When it's seen clearly that the sense of individuality is illusion.. It's hard to then make a case that "you" have a choice when there is no you to begin with.(as a separate entity).

@Eothasian I'm having a difficult time understanding your posts. If you could simplify it?

Yeah I feel ya . The free will issue has huge issues for many areas of our society, including our legal system. If a criminal defendant has no free will, then he cannot be held responsible for his crime, because he could not have chosen otherwise. A child who fails an exam cannot be punished, because that test score could not have been different. A parent who spoils her children is not doing anything “wrong”, because she did not make the choice to raise her children in any specific way. Etc

Lemme see if I understand this correctly..so there Is not two. awareness +thoughts would be two. But since there is not two... .therefore awareness =thoughts. Another way to put it is that awareness appears as thoughts. Am I correct? So the question remains...where do thoughts arise from ? It seems like it arises out of nowhere. Even Rupert Spira says so in this video: It seems like If we assume our identity to be anything (X for example) that our choices are not being generated by X. That's the claim I'm making based on observing thoughts and actions and how they come about . No I literally didn't mention (to you at least) anything about god here . Ramana maharshi was once asked "what is God?" And he said "god is what is" and I agree with this definition. I don't know about "god-consciousness " either (didn't mention It in my argument). As I mentioned in OP. If you were to randomly write down on a piece of paper a list of your favourite songs or movies..you will notice it in direct experience that the thoughts just pop up unintentionally in your mind as if out of nowhere. How Do you explain that, if we are the source of our thoughts? I think the free will issue is a thorny one because it represents a collision between two opposing, yet equally valid, perspectives. From a purely metaphysical perspective, if we don't have free will, why are we here? What is the point of life if we cannot choose our own paths? Yet from a purely scientific perspective, how is it possible that anything can occur without having been caused by something else? If we really can choose, then these choices must be uncaused .something that cannot be explained within the model of science that many of us rely on.

Well ..what are the choices that we have ? Either we have free will. Or our choices are deterministic. Or they are random . If you observe direct experience carefully..you will notice that your thoughts and actions do not come about from a CEO/separate self/controller agent that lives inside your mind . Neither it is deterministic because what exactly would make it deterministic? It's not like there is a creator god who has written your entire life story down to every single little detail .I guess it's just random .because we can't anticipate the next choice that we are gonna make . Humans certainly have the ability to make choices .. to anticipate the outcome of possible actions and select the action that will lead to a preferred goal. People who believe in libertarian free will seem to see this as some sort of metaphysical event that is independent of the web of cause and effect that makes up the rest of the universe. However, this is undemonstrated and is a rather extraordinary claim. it’s also contradicted by the various ways in which human choices can be manipulated by drugs, suggestion, neurological stimulation, brain damage, etc. It’s the process of choosing that people actually experience, not some metaphysical independence from causality, which, let’s be honest, we wouldn’t have the foggiest idea about from simple introspection.

So it's just random ?

I agree .

Dude ..I can't catch a thought and show it to you as if it were a physical object .but we all think all the time .are you denying that you think ? The only way to find thoughts is to think them .try thinking of a pink elephant. There you go :you just had a thought about a pink elephant. You can't show it to me just like how you can show an actual pink elephant to me because you have wrong expectations about what thoughts are . Physical Objects could be seen ..however thought could only be thunk.

No .they are abstract. They have no physical attributes. But they exist nonetheless.

Well..I would say I'm awareness itself rather than a thing which has awareness. So in relation to my point about thoughts ..they don't seem like they are being willed by awareness .they just arise .I mean you can try it ..close your eyes ..get into meditation and try to think of nothing ..Notice that you can't. Why Is that? You have a video called "there is no thinker of thoughts "if I remember correctly?

Well..free will is a concept or a thought that correspond to something. Just like any other thought .we have the thought .and we have the thing which it represents. Like an apple is a thought. But if you are actually experiencing an apple then it's not a thought anymore .I get that 🍎 doesn't =apple . It's a thought . But with free will it gets extra tricky because we are talking about an abstract concept. So we can get lost down that rabbit hole or approach the issue more directly without beating around the Bush. When you experience a thought ..it just arises in your awareness..you don't literally will it into existence. And that's something you can notice especially when you are meditating. You've got what Buddhists call "the monkey mind " which is simply another way to say that thoughts run rampant in your mind and you can't really control them .all we can do is observe them .become the awareness that is aware of thoughts instead of identifying with thoughts. And by "getting it our of my head " I simply mean that I can't stop thinking about it and it's consequences/implications (free will ,that is ).

Free will. BTW. You are free to approach this in whichever way you want .I welcome it all. But I would specially appreciate it if you explained to me the errors (if any ) in my line of reasoning in OP.

I think the alternative is not determinism .but randomness.

@PhilI need some help understanding something . I know we had this conversation about free will numerous times in the past but I just can't get it out of my head. The more I think about it ..the more its obvious to me that I'm not in control of my life . I wanna discuss the concept of free will and choice. Do we have free will ? I'm not gonna start citing the scientific studies that were done in the last century that shows that the brain takes a decision 10 millisecond before your conscious decision. So for example..I decided to take a cigarette..putting it into my mouth and smoke .what happened here ?the brain decides before I have the thought of smoking and then it appears that I made the decision consciously .while in fact it was completely inevitable. Let's try this simple experiment: Get a piece of paper and pen, and write down the first movie that comes to mind, no deliberation. Notice how the content of whatever movie it was, was completely unanticipated and random? It just happened, perhaps it was related to a recent memory, or experience you had today. Notice how that was also out of control. Now extend the realization of this experience of happening, of thinking of a movie, to your entire existence. Free will ain't there. It's all just pure happening. Any insights on the subject appreciated 🙏.

@Mandy i can't edit the title .the thread is almost one week old and the feature of editing disappeared . If you could edit it...please call it "I want to have sex with someone" or "I want to sleep with someone "

Yes .I didn't try them too much .it was enough having a conversation with a handful of people to know that this isn't gonna work . I need to either build a big social circle or continue my cold approaches until I see success. I'm planning to approach 1000 girls .that's my genius plan of how is this gonna work .at least one out of 1000 chances will be on the target . Wish Me luck .

Yea.

@Phil so in the end I should be realistic and approach this whole thing (dating and sexuality ) with a litte bit more common sense?..I ain't gonna get super models to sleep with Me magically while lying on my bed all day. And even then maybe once I achieve it I will be dissatisfied and disillusioned that it didn't actually make me happy. Although the human race has evolved to “belong” , so we do fare better when we have interactions and belonging. But it doesn’t necessarily have to be a romantic relationship. Mankind evolved to work together and contribute, and that is why modern psychology finds that the more we focus on ourselves, the more neurotic and unhappy we become … but the more we discover the pleasure of sharing with and caring about others, the happier we become. That is how we are hardwired, but it doesn’t have to be romance? Also one thing I want to ask for your opinion on is hookers and prostitutes? Have you had any interaction with them prior to your marriage? Do you suggest to me to go down this route if I'm desperate for sex as @ivankiss is suggesting to me? I wanna know what are all the pros and cons and approach the situation mindfully. Yeah I'm a horny boy but I don't wanna catch a STD lol

But how do I change that belief ? I really am buying into it . I firmly believe that if I don't get a girlfriend in the last few years of my 20s to come ,that I would have lived a wasted youth. And not lived up to my full potential. I guess The key is understanding what i really want and to understand what i really need . Most people never experience the happiness available to them because they never take the time to invest in the most important relationship they have, the one with themselves. They spend time getting stuff that never makes them happy because they don’t know who they are .they don’t know what really causes them to experience happiness. For example, some people would say I want a million dollars. Well what would you do with a million dollars? What need would that money meet, real need? The truth is that people really are looking to meet a fundamental need with the money. “If I buy a house I will feel significant.” is what they are really saying. So significance is really what they want. Now the next question that I would ask is, “what has to happen me to feel significant?” When i dig down into it the truth is that it’s something i couldn't experience right now. So, what i really want is currently available if i only take the time to identify what ireally want based on who I am and stop chasing bullshit. It’s not that cars and house and other shit is bad but it’s not the primary thing im looking for and while it makes sense that why wait to experience what you really want in the future when you can experience it all the time? I still haven't figured out how to do it .Guess I have to meditate more and practice letting go, and gratitude. But It has to be genuine gratitude ,not just a substitute for the stuff I believe I need to be happy.

Yes you could frame it that way . I have no problem with how it is worded .the issue remains the same . I believe that I need sex /hot girlfriend to be happy and satisfied. Meanwhile not having one. So we started this conversation talking about how to manifest that desire /how to attract a girlfriend. And now it seems like you are leaning more towards convincing me that I don't actually NEED a girlfriend to be happy and that happiness is unconditional and doesn't hinge upon material possessions . That might be true From your perspective. Because you are a very spiritual and developed(stage turquoise) individual and experienced meditator that you can bliss out on nothing. Or maybe because you've been married for a long time and you take it for granted to have intimate relationship with someone. All of which are not the case from my POV. I'm pretty much stage orange materialist (I don't mean materialism as a metaphysical ontology, I mean I'm achievement oriented. ). I believe happiness does require achieving our desire in whatever shape or form it may be .