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@Mandy that's the weirdest kind of nothing i ever heard of 😅 On a serious note though .. Nothing is not. Even if it were, it would not be thinkable. Even if it were thinkable, it would not be sayable. Only being is, and is thinkable and sayable. If you think or say nothing, you actually think and say something, then not nothing as such but something you have named "nothing". I'm not sure If I'm confusing "nothing " with "non-existence " though. The latter is certainly impossible.

Exactly. Now what does that tell us about free will? If you watch your experiences carefully, you will quickly notice that they don't come from somewhere. They just come. A moment ago it was not even on a radar, and now it's here, deal with it. Thoughts are just like that. We invented “from” as a way to mentally tie together what is already known. It is a mistake to extrapolate this method to what is not known yet. So thoughts do not come from somewhere, but once they are here you may try and come up with a plausible explanation of where they came from. And it is always a different and custom-tailored explanation, haven't you noticed? For example: “I am thinking about getting a cup of coffee. It must be because I haven't had a break from posting walls of text on this forum about fucking free will 😅 What do you mean by that ? Do we have two selves ?one that is illusory and one that is real?

@Mandy when you experience a thought...where does it come from ? And where does it disappear into?

@Phil i guess unconditional love is the Love that transcends ALL form. Because all forms are an expression of love but we know it not, because we (many of us) are still stuck in the utilitarian form of romantic or familial love, that as I stated, is beset by desires. But to Love, simply because they are a living being, who like us, just wants to be happy, feel secure and at peace, and once found, we then seek to make for its expansion. So within the limited version of love, the idea of “loving" a murderer, rapist or someone who has done terrible things to us personally, is usually the first idea that pops into ones mind, of someone who is beyond deserving our love, so makes unconditionality seemingly not possible. So we can't love unconditionally and survive. In order to survive you have to not love eating poison .

@Mandy again I think we are veering off from the original question. So I will try here to refocus the attention at the question at hand and not slide off topic to tangents. While I find them interesting. But they are surely another topics for another day. And BTW..the notion that there is no separate self is a support to the position that we don't have free will .because who exactly would have it ? The separate self of course. And since you claim that the separate self is illusory ..then so is the free will attached to it. But there is still the illusion of free will. This illusion is very complete, very compelling and for all intents and purposes every bit as good as the real thing. We are, for want of a better description, engines that make decisions. So it's not surprising we take responsibility for those decisions. This ownership over our own actions creates the illusion of free will. And very satisfying it is too. But all our choices, deeds and actions are the result of some prior causes: Memories, genetic-predispositions, character defects, accidents, lusts, goals , momentary neurochemical flickerings or just random quantum interactions. In other words, just atoms doing physics. No will. No freedom. And all those causes, they too had had prior causes. If we were an omniscient observer staring into a person, we could watch every one of these golden strands of causality and trace them back in time to before the birth of the person. Alas, we have no such powers. The mind/brain is a black box to us. It's workings obscured. And so we have to satisfy ourselves that the origin of an action was somewhere within that grey meat-computer. It's simpler than that. In this universe, and pretty much every universe we can imagine, there are only two possible types of event. Class 1) Caused events: ..things that happen because earlier things happened. Class 2) Uncaused events :;..things that happened without any prior cause. For this argument we can consider thoughts and decisions to be events like anything else. Including the choice of Cheese or Tuna sandwich. A class 1 decision is the product of what happened before. A logical process, an accumulation of preferences, a reaction to some event. There is no freedom in such a decision. It's outcome was forced by what went before. (that's what class 1 is) .. Using health conscious input factors we logically chose tuna. That's a rational and willed decision. But it's not free. A class 2 decision is unlinked to prior circumstances. As such it must be spontaneous. It must materialise without context or reason. Quantum phenomena are a good example of this. But we could imagine some mental die-roll which allows us to pick at random and get cheese. Again there is no possibility of freedom here. Because we can't control or influence such events. Class 2 events must be random. Because it was random, it was not willed. There are no other classes of event. Not in this universe. Not in any universe we can imagine. So all of our actions and thoughts are either determined by the previous causes or they are random. No free will in both cases . P.S thanks for the book the suggestion. I heard its a great book and I like Rupert Spira style of teaching and I'm sure this book will be interesting. I know its a lengthy post .feel free to ignore it if you want if you got tired if arguing with me . Much love ❤

A methodology of knowledge based on reaching conclusions from premises.

It was a trollish comment .you always do this. You start by a trolling comment and when everyone ignore it ..you get serious Why do you want to switch "free "with "unconditional "and" will "with" love "? To me this is just a prejudice to reach an already in -mind conclusion which had originally nothing to do with the question . The question CAN be answered by yes or no .modern science (neuroscience) have done tons of experiments on the brain activity of people while they were conducting an experiment to track brain activity of those people while they were presented with simple choices like "move your hands "or "press that button ".and it was found that the brain activity occurs milliseconds before the conscious decision arises in the people's minds . So science clearly tell us that we don't have free will .why can't spirituality tell us a straightforward answer too ? Isn't spirituality simply the science of consciousness? So I ask you to give a straightforward answer to the question without turning the words "free will " into a different set of words to suit a prejudice of yours ? Do humans have free will? Yes or no? Few questions cut to the core of human experience quicker then this one. It's easy to see why. With free will we are in control of our lives and morally responsible for our actions, without free will we are reduced to mere robots following out the programming given to us. The implications of free will are staggering and yet the human race has failed to reach a consensus on a question that is absolutely essential to our existence. Our everyday experience tells us yes, but the logic of science tells us no.

@Aware Wolf I did read Sam Harris' book on free will .and it was part of few things convincing me that there is no such thing as free will . Along with the brain studies they did in the last century. Where people were asked to press buttons while there was a device around their head for tracking brain activity..and it was proven clinically that the areas in the brain responsible for taking said descsions fire away by few milliseconds before the person feels the conscious urge to press the button. IIt’s a sound argument. The only valid objection to it is that people do actually use “free will” in the compatibilist sense, and there is nothing wrong with that. But this is not a point against the logic of Harris’s argument. It is not surprising to me that some people, including those writing answers to this question, claim that if determinism were true then moral and legal responsibility would be impossible and the world as we know it would end. The opposite is the case: if determinism were false, that would mean we make at least some decisions for NO REASON. This might not matter if we are choosing a flavour of ice cream, but how could we function, let alone be responsible for our actions, if this were a general rule for making decisions? It may be the case that determinism is not true at the fundamental level, determinism is as illusory as free will ..quantum mechanics have long ago debunked the Newtonian deterministic universe. Its all probability functions at the subatomic level .I personally believe randomness is the case when it comes to our choices in life and how they come about. That's the most reasonable option to me after studying my direct experience carefully enough. Morality doesn't make any sense if we don't have free will .because its not our fault when we behave in an unmoralistic way .

So your take is that we don't have free will ? No .but that's just because of the nature of this specific example . Same as enjoying art and science and philosophy. I've always been fascinated by these things without suffering in order to enjoy them . But I think you are mixing two unmixable (I don't know if that's a word lol 😆) things here . I was talking about cravings and desires and needs. So an example of needs would be drinking water. You would have to first suffer the thirst before enjoying drinking. Etc . If you have a sweet tooth ..you would have to first feel and experience the craving before it gets satisfied by eating candy. Anyways ..I think we are going in tangents and veering off from the original question. Which is free will . This thread has 5 pages already and still nobody have given a clear answer to the question .is it that hard? I dont think so . I think I have a good argument that free will doesn't exist ..if its defined as the ability to have done otherwise,it is not logically possible. All events must either be caused or uncaused, these are the only logical possibilities. In a universe where all events have prior causes, Free Will cannot exist as every outcome is completely determined by the given set of conditions; there is only one possible outcome. In a universe where some events do not have causes, Free Will still cannot exist as uncaused events cannot be willed into existence by a person, they would happen at random for no reason. These exhaust all possibilities, and therefore Free Will does not exist. So I would appreciate it if you show what are some faults I my line of reasoning. If you could do that would highly appreciate it 🙏 Because I'm really stuck with this nihilistic view on no free will which is related to almost everything in my life . I need an awakening to Love . I'm pretty much materialist(stage orange) in my thinking and I think these notions of love are woo woo new age BS . But of course I could be wrong and I'm probably wrong .even though I never experienced unconditional love even once in my life . The love was always attached to an object or an experience like a beautiful woman or a beautiful sunset or a tasty meal etc.

@Phil 😀

I don't understand. You say when "I" look at such and such..aren't you implying that you are the looker ? But even more so ..if you deny your personal identity then you are automatically denying free will . It's like being in a flow state ..you lose yourself in the activities and you become one with the object /environment. So how is that an indication of free will ? OK. Yes you appreciate the thing more when you are deprived from it for a long time. But I don't think that's a good argument. If anything it shows that for equilibrium to happen we MUST suffer first before we get to the goodies. Which makes Me wonder why it has to be this way? Couldn't God have designed the universe that you can enjoy food without getting hungry? Wouldn’t that be a better universe? Not sure I follow. What exactly is awesome?

Its not overthinking. This stuff doesn't bother me at all .in fact I enjoy philosophising more than anything else in life. I like to ask deep existential questions and get them answered because I believe the human mind is capable of understanding itself and reality fully .its not an easy task though but damn it's so rewarding..

OK. My answer is yes . What's your point?

Yes our true identity is awareness. I understand that .but we are not some impersonal fluffy awareness floating around ..we are tied in to a human physical body. So when you say "it's a assumption that we are humans " then you are denying the entirety of your experience. Which tells you that you are awareness of a human avatar. Hunger sucks ,right ? We all don't like the feeling of hunger. And part of the reason it sucks is because its out of our control. If I have complete free will then I should not feel "hunger attacks " 3 times every single fucking day . No you don't choose your preferences od cravings . For example I like the sport team real madrid...I have no choice in the matter..I'm involuntarily attracted to it . Same thing with all kinds of preferences. Whether It be colors ,movies, genres of music etc

@Mandy OK.

Yes if the room is empty of everything except the chair . However if you mean the room is completely empty ..then it doesn't contain a chair inside it . As I said it's a tricky question that I don't know how to answer .something about how it's framed linguistically is confusing 😆.

What do you mean by the first question? Hunger is yet another evidence for lack of free will . You don't choose to be hungry. The feeling of hunger just attacks you out of the blue . Same with all kinds of needs, desires, and cravings. lets take a look at what exactly Free Will is and isn't. The commonly held definition of Free Will is "the ability to freely choose between different possible courses of action." This definition seems to be appropriate and in line with our everyday experience at first glance. If we can choose between different courses of action (and it feels like we can) than we have free will, if we can't choose between different courses of action then we don't. Seems straightforward right? Either we have free will or we don't. Our everyday experience supports it (Libertarians, Compatiblilists), and the physical laws of the universe refutes it (Determinism). This is where 99% of the people get tripped up and stop. Because it depends on the definitions. How do you personally define free will ?

Here, we try to look at what is space. Does space exists as a separate entity from matter and energy, or in other words, is space independent of its contents? I don't know honestly. I'm guessing it's a trick question. And I'm waiting for you to explain what your overall point is (remember I asked you to be straightforward and not dance around the subject /beat around the Bush ). But you seem to enjoy those zen games 😉.

@Mandy yes I would like to be responsible for as much as possible in my life . Free will doesn't mean we are responsible for the entire universe . No libertarian philosopher says that we have 100% free will or control over our destiny. The thing is.. If free will does not exist, nothing matters. If free will does exist, everything matters. If free will does not exist, humans are just dust blowing in the wind, and everything that seems as if it is the result of volitional conduct is an illusion. Just as a rock does not decide to roll down a hill, crush some things along the way and crash into something before coming to rest, humans lacking free will are simply casting about based on invisible forces that control their every action, including what seem to be conscious thoughts. In a world without free will, there is no good or bad, right or wrong, or true or false. There just Is, and nothing humans do has any meaning of any sort. If free will does exist, humans are set apart from the rest of nature, and have some degree of control over their destinies. With free will comes great responsibility to discern and do the “right” thing. Morality is born out of free will, as is immorality. Now for the twist, so long as humans strive to act “as if” they have free will, it does not matter if free will does or does not exist. If free will does exist, and humans strive to act in accord with free will, the reality and the perception will be in harmony. If free will does not exist, but the universe nonetheless causes humans to act as if free will exists, the discord between reality and perception is immaterial and nothing humans do has any meaning in any event. On the other hand, if free will does exist, and humans do not act as if free will exists, humans will waste the miraculous gift of freedom of thought, if not freedom of activity.

How is randomness deterministic? If you throw the dice 🎲..is the possibility of turning 6 a random possibility or a deterministic one ?

@Orb I come back to this topic of free will and choice over and over again and I'm still stuck in the perspective that choice is completely illusion. there is no choice. You are not choosing anything. And I mean anything. Everything. You are not in control of what's happening right now . Its easy to prove if you try to imagine the thought you're going to have in the next 10 seconds. In a sense.. I'm not writing this.. and you are not reading this. It's all being played and it's all karma. Circumstances are infinitely complex and destiny is inevitble. As the awareness watching the movie.. we have zero influence over the plot. "You're not doing it, it's doing you" - Alan Watts You didn't choose your birth as this particular human.. In this particular world.. In this particular part of the world.. In this particular Era.. To this particular family.. With this particular genetics.. With this particular gender.. With this particular look.. Yada yada..you didn't choose the language that you are speaking.. You didn't choose your upbringing.. You didn't choose your cultural conditioning.. You don't choose your heart beat.. You don't choose your thoughts.. You don't choose your actions.. You don't choose your reactions.. You don't choose what you agree with.. You don't choose what you disagree with.. You don't choose your beliefs.. your desires.. your traits your moods.. your habits.. your chances.. your anything lol...simply because you are not real as an individual. you yourself are a thought or at a best a continuity of conditioned thoughts been shaped by your environment.

I would choose free will ,obviously .

Yea I agree .if I have no free will..then either the universe is deterministic and everything was set and done at the moment of the big bang . Because you know ..there are strict material/physical laws to this universe. So every outcome is an inevitable result of the previous causes . Or another options is to say its completely random. And I lean more towards that option because it has more descriptive power to my direct experience. That is ..when I experience a thought or action in direct experience..it seems like it spawns randomly out of nothing. Just like typing this comment right now .I don't know how the heck I'm typing this ..the words just seem to get downloaded into my mind .

So please let's cut the shit and be as brief and precise as possible..do I have free will or not ? I'm expecting a straightforward answer (a yes or no answer ) because we can go on like this until tomorrow and still not arrive at a reasonable conclusion.

I see what you're saying .but I would say that any point in time, you can decide to do something. And go do it. When you enter the shop, you can pick the cheese sandwich or the tuna. Our mind/brains make real decisions, and these decisions select which future path to follow. That feels like free will. And for most purposes we can regard our decision making process as free. This is the so-called illusion of free will. It only gets complicated when we try to discover what is the origin of the decision. What made us pick tuna not cheese? If we answer “It’s just a mystery, no one can ever know” .. then we can maintain the notion of free will. If we regard the mind as a black box, then free will is a thing.