How do you go about meditation?

[Loop]

14 hours ago, fopylo said:

So we do try to find ourselves in thought, which creates the attachment and suffering.....?

Yep, thinking that you know yourself, limiting the Unlimited by hiding it under a perception believing it to be actual. 
 

14 hours ago, fopylo said:

I believe that this is because you abide in this being (flow) and thus don't really experience a strong attachment to a set of beliefs that build your ego.

Flow is the result of abiding as the Immovable. The I-thought is the core of the belief systems.
 

14 hours ago, fopylo said:

Isn't that sense a thought as well? "I am", "inwards"?

When the I abides as itself, it illuminates self-referential thoughts, thoughts about a self. This is because one is looking into where the thoughts arose from, towards Source. Rather then getting caught up in the contents of the thought. 
 

14 hours ago, fopylo said:

But you aren't always experiencing Joy. Sometimes Being can simply be being with frustration, no? Can tranquility occur in every emotion?

 

You are always being it in a sense, not a separate emotion joy, but the joy of the whole range. It is like every “different” emotion is enjoyed for what it is, the seamlessness of every emotion is noticed. The guidance is more obvious, when they aren’t seen as separate feelings. 
 

14 hours ago, fopylo said:

How would you go about desires then?

Essentially just let them go, and allow Source to bring them into vibration. Desirelessness is the end of suffering, but don’t  go after that, it is more so you just keep uncovering that you really are just good enough as you are.
 

14 hours ago, fopylo said:

🥺

You are attacking me in a good way😂 - This is because I've really felt a little bit that I'm becoming more 'me'.

💛

Just the thoughts implying separation that I ‘go after’ 😆.

Seems like a becoming, but really it’s just the art of being yourself. 
 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Loop

[fopylo]

@Loop

11 hours ago, Loop said:

Yep, thinking that you know yourself, limiting the Unlimited by hiding it under a perception believing it to be actual.

Ok so I'll take back some of what I said.

Lately I've been experiencing less than the amazingness I expected to feel while doing meditation.

Like you said, I've realized that lately I've been creating a perception of 'abiding in being' and how it's supposed to be.

This kinda fucks me up because I try to monitor my thoughts more. I feel bad for falling into thoughts.

When I'm tired then the thoughts are much stronger and pull me deeper and are more vivid, but trying to push them aside feels forceful, even if I then get to this state of tranquility (of this clarity), which is clear but it feels a bit forced. When getting lost in thought I don't feel like I'm much in control, I mean powerful. I don't feel this strong sense of my existence.

11 hours ago, Loop said:

Essentially just let them go

And by that you mean.... Being with the desire?

 

11 hours ago, Loop said:

Seems like a becoming, but really it’s just the art of being yourself.

👏

A very sick clean way of putting it🙏

Edited September 9, 2022 by fopylo

[fopylo]

@Phil

I've just been re-reading the 3rd ox herding picture (which I believe is the actual stage of beginning this practice of meditation) and you said something interesting here:

Quote

Whereas it seems before there was persistent suffering, now it seems suffering is intermittent. Why this is so remains a mystery.

I really wonder why it is a mystery... why is it a mystery really?

You also then went on saying this related thing:

Quote

Deflection & projection, yet to be fully inspected & dispelled, persists, and the practice is adhered to, and abandoned, adhered to, and abandoned, adhered to, and abandoned.

The inspection of self referential thoughts is unappreciated, un-applied - and the practice is adhered to, and abandoned, adhered to, and abandoned, adhered to, and abandoned.

I believe I asked you this before as well, but why is there the tendency, before realizing enlightenment, to keep adhering and then abandoning the practice?

 

I was inspired to right this to you now after what I've wrote to @Loop just now. The desire of stopping the practice could be right now, and honestly I feel very slightly reluctant to take a break from meditation. But I remember I used to hate so badly on meditation in the past, but this was mostly to (now realized) my lack of understanding of what meditation is that @Loop and Leo's video did a great job explaining to me.

I won't be surprised if what you said comes true, that as long as you're on the path to enlightenment (before realizing fully Yourself) there will be adherence and abandonment of the practice. It might be just stages of understanding of what meditation is all about, each understanding feeling better, leading more to Myself.

[fopylo]

Ok so I did a 30 minute meditation, and felt like I needed it. I was worn out after this work day.

I was simply being, there was just no other option.

The pessimism was so strong that the best thing I could do was be, and it will easily be expressed.

 

An insight that came to mind:

I am awareness, or like this empty space.

Thoughts arise but like I am not in control of the thoughts I'm gonna have, thus I can't control my thoughts. "Me" is also a thought residing in this empty space.

Even if I am not in control of the so believed 'my' thoughts, I can still feel powerful and in control because the thoughts feel like Me, my real self, this affirming feeling. When this feeling comes to conscious awareness then it's easier to see all thoughts as coming and going, and you not trying - here comes the way of non: Non-trying, non-engaging... which doesn't mean avoidance, but rather letting them be, not trying to convince yourself a conceptual you exists which can change the circumstances.

With that said, the way I navigate myself is through feeling, feeling more and more like Myself, this flow and clarity. Flow and clarity shouldn't turn into a believed concept because then I'll be locked in this perspective (which will actually get me out of this flow), and then you go back to not trying and just being. Feeling is what will guide you towards yourself.

[Lotus]

10 hours ago, fopylo said:

Non-trying, non-engaging... which doesn't mean avoidance, but rather letting them be, not trying to convince yourself a conceptual you exists which can change the circumstances.

Awesome, dude. That‘s meditation. That‘s feeling/being. Inspiration follows. 👊🏼

Edited September 13, 2022 by Lotus

[fopylo]

@Lotus

Today I was meditating for 30 minutes, but damn... not an easy session.

I felt like I kept falling into thought stories, then 'trying' to meditate and try to focus on being (a perspective of what is being).

I was just trying to get somewhere sometimes. Letting go, more like trying to let go, felt like I'm pushing it.

Was frustrated and annoyed like 5 minutes before it ended, but then my overactive mind tried to conceptualize this experience as well...

After the meditation I didn't feel much like I'm more loving and more myself.

I still felt like I'm hooked on some thoughts.

Later on I got thinking about it, that maybe more people can relate, perhaps? I believe the phrase "the more personal, the more universal" can apply here.

 

I've been wondering how to really let go and drop into Being without conceptualizing the experience (holding onto thought stories)

[Loop]

26 minutes ago, fopylo said:

I've been wondering how to really let go and drop into Being without conceptualizing the experience (holding onto thought stories)

Single pointed concentration is useful for moving away from the thoughts and just focusing on a ‘thing’ as is. 
Being with Boundless Feeling is easier when attention is away from thought.
 

Check out what @Phil said at the start of the thread. 
 

[Lotus]

11 hours ago, fopylo said:

I felt like I kept falling into thought stories, then 'trying' to meditate and try to focus on being (a perspective of what is being).

That‘s meditation with the assumption that it‘s not meditation.

 

11 hours ago, fopylo said:

I was just trying to get somewhere sometimes. Letting go, more like trying to let go, felt like I'm pushing it.

Was frustrated and annoyed like 5 minutes before it ended, but then my overactive mind tried to conceptualize this experience as well...

Those are expectations, which come and go during meditation. They are a natural part of meditation. To ‚let go‘ simply means to let those arise and to let those pass. They are impermanent anyway. 

 

11 hours ago, fopylo said:

After the meditation I didn't feel much like I'm more loving and more myself.

Those are expectations of a thought-based self, which come and go. 

 

11 hours ago, fopylo said:

I’ve been wondering how to really let go and drop into Being without conceptualizing the experience (holding onto thought stories)

Is it even possible to drop out of Being?

 

Perhaps it‘s already been suggested, but maybe don‘t force yourself to do half an hour, but only as much as it makes you relax. Imo even 5 deep breaths is enough for one sitting. If it feels good and you wanna extend, 5 more breaths, and so on. 

[fopylo]

Just did a 30 minute meditation:

I wasn't trying to be nobody.

Wasn't trying to achieve anything.

Wasn't trying much.

This approach really helped clear my mind, lot's of the overthinking settled down.

In a sense, all I did was sit still with eyes closed for no reason. Well... maybe simply to be with everything that comes/is, and not resist it.

It might've been a good session, maybe not.

Honestly I don't know.

Perhaps there was a little bit of trying to remain flowing and a slight resistance trying to avoid falling into thought stories.

[fopylo]

23 hours ago, Loop said:

Being with Boundless Feeling is easier when attention is away from thought

@Loop Maybe that's why it was easier now...

12 hours ago, Lotus said:

That‘s meditation with the assumption that it‘s not meditation.

@Lotus

Falling into thought stories isn't quite the good feeling, you know? Doesn't feel like me...

 

12 hours ago, Lotus said:

On 9/15/2022 at 2:16 AM, fopylo said:

After the meditation I didn't feel much like I'm more loving and more myself.

Those are expectations of a thought-based self, which come and go. 

Honest question then:

I know (with the assumption) that meditation is without expectations and rather a focus on the present moment... what is really supposed to be the outcome of the practice (not 'at the end of the session', but rather the practice itself, meditation)?

For instance, I could say that practicing piano makes me feel good and that I'm expressing more of Me through my body and sounds that feel great. The playing feels good, sometimes calm, sometimes sad, sometimes I don't feel like playing, but playing the piano doesn't help me organize my life and pursue other desires...

 

In general though, when I'm caught up in some stories... building stories on top of stories on top of stories... should I just be with those stories, like going deep with those stories and entertain myself, keeping it running?

Edited September 15, 2022 by fopylo

[Lotus]

5 hours ago, fopylo said:

what is really supposed to be the outcome of the practice

 

I can only answer that from my perspective, the answer from ‚enlightened people‘ might differ.

 

I suppose the outcome of the practice is enjoying life. The simple celebration of the present moment. On or off the cushion. 

 

But probably also self-realization and recognizing your true nature, but that‘s not where I‘m at, so to speak. Not an enlightened yogi over here. 🤷🏽‍♂️

 

5 hours ago, fopylo said:

In general though, when I'm caught up in some stories... building stories on top of stories on top of stories... should I just be with those stories, like going deep with those stories and entertain myself, keeping it running?

 

See them as guests, which come and go. Thoughts are like clouds in the sky. They arise and pass. When it‘s so clouded that one cloud follows another, it seems like there is no sky. When there is a little space in between, it‘s crystal clear that there indeed is a sky, no?

 

Meditation is de-conditioning. Meditation makes it ‚less cloudy‘. This could mean that there are less thoughts in general but also less identification with thoughts when they happen to come up.

[fopylo]

Alright so I did today a 30 minute session a bit after I came back from work. I was also only on like 5 hours of sleep.

I felt like I'm getting easily caught up in thoughts, cloudy, but like you know, when you get tired and shit and you start dozing off.

Let's just say that it got me sleepy and right after the meditation I fell on my bed and decided to take a little nap. The thing is that I was with my work clothes which aren't clean and I tried laying on the side of my legs and half the body on the floor or just partly on the bed. It was kinda shit not gonna lie...

What was the point of meditating if that was what happened? Was it a signal to me that I must take a rest and that I'm honestly tired, or perhaps it was the meditation that caused it?

[fopylo]

I just did two 30 minute sessions right after each other. You could say I kinda 'forgot' how to meditate but I caught up to it fairly quickly - just sitting and being. But I think I've came with a new insight:

Sitting and simply being = being yourself

I arising (the feeling of being myself) = love arising

I-ness = love

 

There were times thought felt discordant and I didn't manage to get back into the flow of being; perhaps I have beliefs about how the flow of being should be...

 

@Phil What is conditioning?

[fopylo]

But I also must say I had a few times during those sessions that I was excited about the meditation. Like, it could potentially be the best healing thing... but it also depends on the way I approach it and how much I practice it. I want to live the truest me! I'm just imagining music I really love in my head, and I understand that the reason I love it so much is because it literally feels like it's part of my true form. It feels somewhat like me.

[Phil]

Seems to be of a past, but is arising thoughts as conditions in discord with unconditional arising. Therein lies the difference unconsciously and consciously creating. 

 

[fopylo]

So yesterday I decided just to meditate a bit at 0:30 (past midnight) some time after my workout. During the meditation I almost fell asleep. Without much thought, I just got ready to bed and went to sleep at like 1:30. Mind you, my sleep schedule was usually past 4:00 am, and it is just that out of the blue I decided to go to sleep early.

It got me wondering whether meditation has been truly expressing my raw tiredness that's been suppressed by wanting to stay up at night... or perhaps meditation simply makes me tired...?

 

So then today I woke up feeling refreshed... has been a long time since I've slept good for real. I also didn't feel that tired when I woke up, as opposed to most of my "mornings" (14:00-15:00-ish). I felt quite awake and energetic. Decided to have a healthy breakfast of omelet and salad. Afterwards did a sitting meditation...

During the meditation I felt like I'm dozing off. Fucking hell man... I mean, I've started the day with clarity, and now I've been starting to feel sleepy during the meditation? Like what the hell man? And yes, I was keeping a straight spine.

I was almost starting to dream during the meditation. But it's just like... Man, I mean, I'm with my eyes closed... What do you expect me really to experience..?? 

[Phil]

@fopylo

In meditation and when falling asleep the mind is de-contracting, de-concentrating / relaxing. So meditation before going to sleep makes for falling asleep faster & getting a deeper more rested sleep. 

 

For morning meditation try meditation and then eating for less sleepiness. 

 

Also, something wrong with consciously dreaming? 

[fopylo]

@Phil

16 hours ago, Phil said:

In meditation and when falling asleep the mind is de-contracting, de-concentrating / relaxing.

I've heard from some people the terms 'contraction' and 'de-contraction'/'relaxation' (Frank Yang uses it a bit)... What is the difference between the two?

 

16 hours ago, Phil said:

For morning meditation try meditation and then eating for less sleepiness.

Because the food causes the tiredness?

 

16 hours ago, Phil said:

Also, something wrong with consciously dreaming?

Kinda sucks falling asleep in the morning, especially when you either plan on being really awake/energetic or that you've already been awake and now it sucks to fall asleep and be tired-ish.

[Phil]

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

@Phil

I've heard from some people the terms 'contraction' and 'de-contraction'/'relaxation' (Frank Yang uses it a bit)... What is the difference between the two?

Make a really tight fist, that’s contraction. Then shake it out and relax your hand, that’s de-contraction.

The mind which is actually a lens which seems opposite in that it’s made of / is a contraction of infinite consciousness. With the hand you contracted it & remember doing so. Doesn’t seem so with the mind because there’s no memory of having contracted Yourself, because there wasn’t yet a lens which the thought  / memory could appear as / in. But ‘you’ are the evidence that You did / are. In sleep there’s no ‘you’, because You are what “sleep” is. Therein medi-tation means middle-way. 

 

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

Because the food causes the tiredness?

Relative to an empty stomach in regard to meditation, yes. 

Even what was eaten the day before, and when, plays a role in the quality of meditation.