Why is it so hard after initial glimpses?

[Forza21]

I recently had a glimpse of pure sense, "i am". Not as a "thought" but as a living truth.

 

i've experienced it, as i am this vast, spacious, no-thing, in which everything, including thoughts, appears, and disappears.  It wasn't something special or mystical, in fact it was pretty neutral, but so enjoyable.

it was so easy to "rest there" and thoughts weren't a problem AT ALL as they appeared/disappeared in me, as me. It was so clear. That "isness" was self-validating, obvious. It was big peace and equanimity. There were many thoughts like "this can't be it" "it's boring" "look further" etc, but at that point, all thoughts were laughable, as i rested as this space, it all took place. The content of thoughts weren't believable at all.  No solving, no trying, just noticing "thought&let go.

I can't "get there" since, and it's frustrating.

 

i know, that what prevents me from this, is this thought/belief, that:
 

-There's someone to "get there"

-I'm not this already

So basically, it's believing in thoughts again.

But every time i go into meditation, there's this big sense of "struggle" and "trying" and i can't observe it anyhow, can't let it go, as i imagine how it was peaceful... It ends up in big frustration. 

Any tips please?:)

 

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Forza21

[James123]

@Forza21 look at the situation from this perspective. You are already what you are as always been. When attachment happens with so called thinking, you are frustrated, because you are in the illusion again. Illusion can never solve the illusion. That's why you are exhausted. Long sitting in the darkness and silence is the key for begging of understanding "how the thinking works".  Thinking can never be solved with thinking.

Edited August 13, 2022 by James123

[Phil]

@Forza21

It’s essentially the result of not having receded ‘to’ pure consciousness, and therein, believing this full receding has occurred. When the apparent finite mind recesses into itself, there is isness, then void, then the true nature, or, pure consciousness, then Being, then the spheres from the “perspective” of Being. There isn’t a word / language for this, so “perspective” is used in lieu. Another way to put it is Being and what Being is being via vibrationally appearing as. 

 

When the finite mind recedes and void is “experienced” - but void is not ‘crossed’ or ‘broken through’, all which constitutes a or the  conscience is exposed, but is not disintegrated. This can be an extremely uncomfortable & jarring ‘place’ on the path. Then the finite mind, still holding belief in subject & object reality, and inherently therein, identity… claims the substance of itself as an experience known by itself. But void is not the ‘substance’ of, or that which is most purely speaking, what is appearing as, the finite mind. 

 

 

[Orb]

@Phil woah woah wait a second lol. 

 

So you experience reality AS the spheres?

[Phil]

@Orb

I am reality, and I experience a world which I am being through a lens which I am being. 

[Aware Wolf]

Rupert Spira has some videos on this. It's a common enough question "I had it, but lost it." Adyashanti mentions this too. You might look them up, they'd talk about it better than I could paraphrase it here. 

 

 

 

[Alexander]

4 hours ago, Phil said:

@Orb

I am reality, and I experience a world which I am being through a lens which I am being. 

make a cake and eat it too.

[Phil]

On 8/13/2022 at 3:36 PM, Forza21 said:

I recently had a glimpse of pure sense, "i am". Not as a "thought" but as a living truth.

Sometimes it’s helpful to ‘break it down’, also, it’s sort of risky in a zen slap way. 🫢

Question that thought - who are you talking about? Who is separate of pure consciousness… which experienced pure consciousness… which recently had a glimpse… in a past? If that was pure consciousness… what is This?

Is the direct and actual experience… of a thought… about someone & a past?

On 8/13/2022 at 3:36 PM, Forza21 said:

 

i've experienced it, as i am this vast, spacious, no-thing, in which everything, including thoughts, appears, and disappears.  It wasn't something special or mystical, in fact it was pretty neutral, but so enjoyable.

Who? Who experienced “it”?

On 8/13/2022 at 3:36 PM, Forza21 said:

it was so easy to "rest there" and thoughts weren't a problem AT ALL as they appeared/disappeared in me, as me. It was so clear. That "isness" was self-validating, obvious. It was big peace and equanimity. There were many thoughts like "this can't be it" "it's boring" "look further" etc, but at that point, all thoughts were laughable, as i rested as this space, it all took place. The content of thoughts weren't believable at all.  No solving, no trying, just noticing "thought&let go.

What is ‘there’? Look now, here - is a ‘there’ actually found?

On 8/13/2022 at 3:36 PM, Forza21 said:

I can't "get there" since, and it's frustrating.

Where is ‘there’?

Where is this one (which can’t ‘get there’) ?

On 8/13/2022 at 3:36 PM, Forza21 said:

 

i know, that what prevents me from this, is this thought/belief, that:
 

-There's someone to "get there"

-I'm not this already

So basically, it's believing in thoughts again.

“What prevents me”. Who, where, what - is that “me”?

”I know, that what prevents me”. Who, where, what - is that “I” which knows what prevents a “me”?

On 8/13/2022 at 3:36 PM, Forza21 said:

But every time i go into meditation, there's this big sense of "struggle" and "trying" and i can't observe it anyhow, can't let it go, as i imagine how it was peaceful... It ends up in big frustration. 

Any tips please?:)

 

 

Who or what… “goes into” meditation? 

Who is struggling? 

Who is trying?

Who can’t observe? 

Who can’t let “it” go?

What is “it”? 

Who imagines “it” was peaceful?

What is “it”?

🤍

 

[Forza21]

On 8/13/2022 at 10:28 PM, James123 said:

@Forza21 look at the situation from this perspective. You are already what you are as always been. When attachment happens with so called thinking, you are frustrated, because you are in the illusion again. Illusion can never solve the illusion. That's why you are exhausted. Long sitting in the darkness and silence is the key for begging of understanding "how the thinking works".  Thinking can never be solved with thinking.

Yes, you are right. I like the mind like a pond analogy - just leave water to settle by itself, don't touch the surface, you only make it more rough  but still it's stiiicky.

On 8/14/2022 at 4:17 AM, Phil said:

@Forza21

It’s essentially the result of not having receded ‘to’ pure consciousness, and therein, believing this full receding has occurred. When the apparent finite mind recesses into itself, there is isness, then void, then the true nature, or, pure consciousness, then Being, then the spheres from the “perspective” of Being. There isn’t a word / language for this, so “perspective” is used in lieu. Another way to put it is Being and what Being is being via vibrationally appearing as. 

 

When the finite mind recedes and void is “experienced” - but void is not ‘crossed’ or ‘broken through’, all which constitutes a or the  conscience is exposed, but is not disintegrated. This can be an extremely uncomfortable & jarring ‘place’ on the path. Then the finite mind, still holding belief in subject & object reality, and inherently therein, identity… claims the substance of itself as an experience known by itself. But void is not the ‘substance’ of, or that which is most purely speaking, what is appearing as, the finite mind. 

 

 

@phil thank you ❤️

Yeah, it's so paradoxical to talk, it really is the case, that as soon as you try to say something about it, you are back into thoughts/concepts/beliefs.

It's like when there's void, the thoughtless space, the apparent separated-self puts the heaviest "guns" to "catch" the attention into thoughts/beliefs again. 

There was a thought even " damn i lost it again, i need to ask about it on forum" - which is hilarious, because it's a seeker-thought, and a belief, that someone else has better answers... but yeah, it grabbed "me". 

So "stickiness" of thoughts loses it's powers, as soon as thought is recognized as a thought.

But it really seems hopeless sometimes, because it's like never-ending journey to disentangle from it, and i noticed after some time how clever thoughts were.

It's like sometimes thoughts operate on very subtle level, on the background of experience, and it's not as easy to see. For example,  when one's trying to focus on "foot sensation", there's a subtle image of the body, not so easy to grasp, because we are so used to it.

So, there's nothing more to do, than just practice, practice, practice? ❤️ 

 

 

21 hours ago, Phil said:

Sometimes it’s helpful to ‘break it down’, also, it’s sort of risky in a zen slap way. 🫢

Question that thought - who are you talking about? Who is separate of pure consciousness… which experienced pure consciousness… which recently had a glimpse… in a past? If that was pure consciousness… what is This?

Is the direct and actual experience… of a thought… about someone & a past?

Who? Who experienced “it”?

What is ‘there’? Look now, here - is a ‘there’ actually found?

Where is ‘there’?

Where is this one (which can’t ‘get there’) ?

“What prevents me”. Who, where, what - is that “me”?

”I know, that what prevents me”. Who, where, what - is that “I” which knows what prevents a “me”?

Who or what… “goes into” meditation? 

Who is struggling? 

Who is trying?

Who can’t observe? 

Who can’t let “it” go?

What is “it”? 

Who imagines “it” was peaceful?

What is “it”?

🤍

 

it's tempting to say " i got it" but "who's got it?" 😄 yeah, it's only this presence, and we can't really say anything about it.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Forza21

[Phil]

4 hours ago, Forza21 said:

So, there's nothing more to do, than just practice, practice, practice? ❤️ 

There is a ‘both’ in the two different replies I gave. Also admittedly, text is limited communicatively as it’s purely dualistic and meaning is arising ‘at your end’ so to speak, so dot connecting or ‘ah ha’s’ are more difficult to come by if / when the same meaning is arising to the words read.

 

There is a ‘going deeper’, though there isn’t a separate self which goes deeper, or even moves or goes anywhere at all. Also, yes, practices like meditation most often have a place. Slows the activity of thought, and the attachment fizzles out, and there is more clarity, and nuances of thought, belief & attachment are more readily seen.

 

Also, there is inspecting the thoughts. That can be challenging when so to speak, one is already well into a ‘thoughts story’, ‘attached’ or believing the thoughts. It is easier and more efficient to talk with someone with the point being seeing through the thoughts / beliefs, and or writing the thoughts and being able to visually see them. 

 

There is also expression, like expression journaling, and releasing any underlying ‘ah ha’s’ as to why certain / same thoughts or thought patterns continue to arise, touching on what one is identified with or as. Therapy is very similar. 

 

Of course there is also the ‘direct’ path, or, that there is no ‘path’ from ‘you to you’.

 

What stands out is inspecting who the thoughts are about, and or self inquiry.  

 

 

[Forza21]

21 minutes ago, Phil said:

There is a ‘both’ in the two different replies I gave. Also admittedly, text is limited communicatively as it’s purely dualistic and meaning is arising ‘at your end’ so to speak, so dot connecting or ‘ah ha’s’ are more difficult to come by if / when the same meaning is arising to the words read.

 

There is a ‘going deeper’, though there isn’t a separate self which goes deeper, or even moves or goes anywhere at all. Also, yes, practices like meditation most often have a place. Slows the activity of thought, and the attachment fizzles out, and there is more clarity, and nuances of thought, belief & attachment are more readily seen.

 

Also, there is inspecting the thoughts. That can be challenging when so to speak, one is already well into a ‘thoughts story’, ‘attached’ or believing the thoughts. It is easier and more efficient to talk with someone with the point being seeing through the thoughts / beliefs, and or writing the thoughts and being able to visually see them. 

 

There is also expression, like expression journaling, and releasing any underlying ‘ah ha’s’ as to why certain / same thoughts or thought patterns continue to arise, touching on what one is identified with or as. Therapy is very similar. 

 

Of course there is also the ‘direct’ path, or, that there is no ‘path’ from ‘you to you’.

 

What stands out is inspecting who the thoughts are about, and or self inquiry.  

 

 

it's funny, at first when i saw what you write about thoughts/beliefs, it wasn't understandable for me at all. I got maybe 10% of the things you said, now "i" really start to feel in guts what you write/transmit.

For me, it was a thought/belief, that thoughts can't really alter reality/present moment that much. It was like " Phil damn it, It's just thoughts, stop overestimating that! Just tell my about your beliefs about reality!! operating in the background of experience 😉 

I was so fucking wrong, as thoughts reveal by itself, it really starts to change perception/everything.

 

yeah, it's really the way.  ❤️ 

 

And even that what i wrote previously - there's a big assumption that there's a "me" which attention can by grabbed by thought - which is just another thought. When recognized, it really creates a big gap in mind - which feels kinda like "death" so in a moment "thinking operatus" starts to work hard to fill it.   But unrecoginzed - it really feels that way. That illusion is really, really convising, unless you look really close.
 
"i" keep going until it gets comfortable :)
 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Forza21

[James123]

5 hours ago, Forza21 said:

 

On 8/13/2022 at 11:28 PM, James123 said:

@Forza21 look at the situation from this perspective. You are already what you are as always been. When attachment happens with so called thinking, you are frustrated, because you are in the illusion again. Illusion can never solve the illusion. That's why you are exhausted. Long sitting in the darkness and silence is the key for begging of understanding "how the thinking works".  Thinking can never be solved with thinking.

Expand  

Yes, you are right. I like the mind like a pond analogy - just leave water to settle by itself, don't touch the surface, you only make it more rough  but still it's stiiicky.

On 8/14/2022 at 5:17 AM, Phil said:

 

Why is it sticky? 

[Forza21]

1 minute ago, James123 said:

Why is it sticky? 

That's a good question.

 

I think it's because of beliefs that some "thoughts" are about a separated entity called "me" which in reality, isn't true, it's like mistaking reflection for the mirror. Before, during and after thought, i am. 

What do you think?

Edited August 16, 2022 by Forza21

[James123]

2 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

That's a good question.

 

I think it's because of beliefs that some "thoughts" are about a separated entity called "me" which in reality, isn't true, it's like mistaking reflection from the mirror. Before, during and after thought, i am. 

What do you think?

“Reality” is a belief itself. You always are, without so called beliefs. Beliefs are anything that you have learned since “your” “birth”, which includes “you” and “your birth”.

[Phil]

On 8/13/2022 at 3:36 PM, Forza21 said:

i've experienced it…

In thought… ‘it’, which is infinite, or, the infinite self, infinite being… can seem to be a finite experience in a past, and then there can seem to be a separate self present, an I which experienced an it. But if “it” was experienced in a past, what is aware of the thought, now? Where is a past, now?

[Mandy]

If you stop eating excessively sugary foods, foods that are a little bit sweet (like fruit) become much more enjoyable. After a while, sugary cereals or sodas are disgustingly sweet and make you feel crappy after consuming. You become more sensitive to taste and how you feel, whereas before you didn't notice. In the same way, once you're really on the path anything off the path feels very very off. You just know it's off. It's not that things have gotten more intense or more hard but that you have honed in to your guidance system, you are noting more readily when a thought feels off. 

 

Which is all really awesome. 

[Forza21]

2 hours ago, Phil said:

In thought… ‘it’, which is infinite, or, the infinite self, infinite being… can seem to be a finite experience in a past, and then there can seem to be a separate self present, an I which experienced an it. But if “it” was experienced in a past, what is aware of the thought, now? Where is a past, now?

Excellent pointers. 

There's wondering - is there a permanent shift into "who you take yourself to be" and there's no more falling into illusion of thoughts/mind identifications?

 

For example, if one's sees that Santa Claus isn't real,  there's no more falling into believing this stuff. The same "logic" should be applied into "no self" realization, right?

so if one's goes back&forth into believing self-referential thoughts, it means there wasn't permanent "breakthrough" ?

How about you? Do you still sometimes go back into illusionary mind identification world?🙂

 

2 hours ago, Mandy said:

If you stop eating excessively sugary foods, foods that are a little bit sweet (like fruit) become much more enjoyable. After a while, sugary cereals or sodas are disgustingly sweet and make you feel crappy after consuming. You become more sensitive to taste and how you feel, whereas before you didn't notice. In the same way, once you're really on the path anything off the path feels very very off. You just know it's off. It's not that things have gotten more intense or more hard but that you have honed in to your guidance system, you are noting more readily when a thought feels off. 

 

Which is all really awesome. 

 Wonderful. It's almost like:
1)"glimpse"-> here how reality really is
2)"fall back into mind identification"-> and that's what's preventing you from seeing it clearly... 😉 the more you suffer/discord, the harder it gets to ignore...

Edited August 17, 2022 by Forza21

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Forza21 said:

Excellent pointers. 

There's wondering - is there a permanent shift into "who you take yourself to be" and there's no more falling into illusion of thoughts/mind identifications?

 

For example, if one's sees that Santa Claus isn't real,  there's no more falling into believing this stuff. The same "logic" should be applied into "no self" realization, right?

so if one's goes back&forth into believing self-referential thoughts, it means there wasn't permanent "breakthrough" ?

How about you? Do you still sometimes go back into illusionary mind identification world?🙂

That ‘shift’ is essentially de-conditioning, and not per se ‘permanent’. It’s not really a shift which is permanent ‘for the rest of this life’. It’s more, oh, I thought there was a separate self living life… and “I thought there was” is recognized to be, a or one, thought.

 

There also isn’t actually a change in identity. There isn’t really a change in anything, ultimately. Even the experience of thought, perception or perceiving, and feeling / sensation or sensing doesn’t per se change, there’s just less and less interpretation / thought believed / beliefs applied to awareness / consciousness / (ineffable) & perception & feeling / sensation. There is also less thought applied to / believed about…  thoughts. It is clearer & clearer there is one thought at a time, (appearing only now). Like the ‘hundred thoughts’ example. 

 

So there isn’t a permanent shift into who you take yourself to be… There’s just seeing through that I took myself to be somebody in the first place, and that was conditioning. I just am… period. Full stop. 

1 hour ago, Forza21 said:

For example, if one's sees that Santa Claus isn't real

In the same way, in the subtlest of thought inspection it is seen, there isn’t & wasn’t that ‘one’ and a real or not real Santa. The ‘stuff’ is really thoughts, and it’s really believing or not believing thoughts. 

1 hour ago, Forza21 said:

The same "logic" should be applied into "no self" realization, right?

No… logic is a thought about thoughts. Logic, being thoughts, is a finite appearance of infinite, and as an appearance… can’t actually apply to infinite. Like, a mirage doesn’t apply or not apply to a desert. All there actually is, is the desert. 

1 hour ago, Forza21 said:

so if one's goes back&forth into believing self-referential thoughts, it means there wasn't permanent "breakthrough" ?

That ‘one’ is always The One, awareness, infinite being. So if infinite being is going back & fourth / believing thoughts… could there be or not be a permanent breakthrough? Or… is that… in direct experience… actually another thought… about a ‘separate self’ which has or hasn’t, does or doesn’t ‘breakthrough’? 

Very tricky because with the apparent of duality of words, there are these terms, like breakthrough, etc. But all that appears is of course also, our infinite being. But… don’t let the language imply there’s me and… or you and… an infinite being. The term just points to the ineffable, like the word God.  

IS… but isn’t definable with words / can only be ‘pointed to’ with words. 

 

1 hour ago, Forza21 said:

How about you? Do you still sometimes go back into illusionary mind identification world?🙂

It would be misleading to answer in kind, in the sense there is a separate self here.